My guitar has no low end

[guitarist21]

A while ago I had a thread about wanting a small body guitar with lots of low end. I've since reconsidered buying a new one after playing a couple shows with my '65 Gibson LG-0. Its all Mahogany and has a unique, woody sort of tone that's a nice balance between spruce and cedar. Its small, but responds great to flatpicking, even hard strumming, which I do a lot at shows. It also plays great and stays in tune up the neck.

 

My only gripe is that the low end is almost non-existant. The guitar is old and well played, so it has certainly opened up. I usually use 11s or 12s, so I thought maybe I could buy some 13s and use the 13s for the low E and A strings and use 11s or 12s for the rest? Would that fatten up the sound, or just mess up my guitar?

 

Any other suggestions for improving low-end response short of buying a new guitar?

 

Ellen

 

P.S. I also want to put some (permanent, not soundhole-mounted) electronics in it, maybe. Any suggestions here? Is this a dumb idea as well?

[Treborklow]

The LGO's small mahogany body is too small to give you the low end you want. Heavier strings will not do it. If you want a lot of low end, get yourself a rosewood dred or a rosewood or perhaps maple jumbo. The LGO was designed to be a low priced student guitar for learning, not to be the Stradivarius of guitars. It does however create a nice midrange that records well and sits in the mix well like most mahogany guitars.

[Freeman Keller]

Are you saying that your bass strings have no volume or that the the guitar simply has no bass. Heavier bass strings will improve the volume (some) and there are manufacturers that offer sets like you describe - here is Elixer light-medium

 

11077 Light

[postalsock]

im not sure what you can do. Just go to a shop and ask for some real bassy thick strings. Maybe ask a luthier if theres anything he can do. I know my yamaha has a amazing bass, because they switched something around. haha Im sry im not much help, but im tryin.

[guitarist21]

To answer FK's question: the guitar simply has no bass. Its a small guitar and it sounds like a small guitar. And yes, most of the time I am singing along. I have tuned it down to Eb and D in the past and it just sounded kind of jangly as I remember.

 

To ask FK a question: How much does after-market scalloping cost? And what about graphite saddles? I've never used them, but would it be more like plastic or bone?

 

And I'm also considering getting some electronics put it. Would it be better to just stick with sound hole-mounted electronics? My Fishman Rare Earth works great with my Washburn, but I kind of want something more permanent.

 

Ellen

[guitarist21]

I just went and got my guitar, because I'm about to take it to the guy who sets up my guitars and see what he says.

 

FK: the saddle is already plastic. I didn't really know this. AND!! HORROR OF ALL HORRORS!! The BRIDGE is plastic also! I'm going to see if I can't get it replaced and get a rosewood one, or something.

 

Ellen

[Freeman Keller]

 

Originally posted by guitarist21 To ask FK a question: How much does after-market scalloping cost? And what about graphite saddles? I've never used them, but would it be more like plastic or bone? Ellen

 

 

Ellen, my only point of reference is Bryan Kimsey who did mine (along with a bunch of other work). He does mostly Martin work and I know he has a big backlog. Here is what he says, top of the page.

 

http://www.bryankimsey.com/music/rates.htm

 

As far a the effects of saddles I've mostly only worked with bone but Bob Colosi is the man here. He willingly answers questions and will set you with what you need (if this will help).

 

http://www.guitarsaddles.com

 

It is also possible that this is just the mission statement of your little Gibby and you would be best suited to look for something with a little bigger voice. Play some Robert Johnson blues on the LG-0 and it should be real happy.

 

Please don't "Just go to a shop and ask for some real bassy thick strings" there are some big issues with top tension on a small bodied guitars with phat strings - if you don't believe me look at the numbers for a LKSM. As I said before, you might gain a little volume, but it won't change the balance of the guitar.

 

The last thing I will add, tho, is that a small bodied guitar can have a big bass voice - my triple ought does. Whether it is the combination of the rose and spruce, blind stupid luck with my scalloping, the choice of strings and saddle and all that stuff I really don't know.

[Treborklow]

Originally posted by guitarist21 I just went and got my guitar, because I'm about to take it to the guy who sets up my guitars and see what he says. FK: the saddle is already plastic. I didn't really know this. AND!! HORROR OF ALL HORRORS!! The BRIDGE is plastic also! I'm going to see if I can't get it replaced and get a rosewood one, or something. Ellen

 

Again, it was a low buget guitar and that's why it has plastic. It's a good idea to replace that plastic bridge however. That plastic one that replaced the wood one on earlier LGO's was a costcutter at the time and was, and still is, considered a design flaw even by Gibson today. It will eventually wreck your top. So a new rosewood bridge is a plus on that guitar. A bone saddle will make your sound brighter, not bassier... but again it's a midrange sounding guitar, it's only doing what it was designed to do.

 

Curious as to where you are taking it, what city in IL?

[Freeman Keller]

This got me curious. Here is what the database says about the LG-0

 

http://reviews.harmony-central.com/reviews/Guitar/product/Gibson/LG-0+Acoustic/10/1

 

some seemed to have plastic bridge, some rosewood. For some of these folks it is certainly not a "low budget" guitar - people have paid 700 to 900 in some cases. They also seem pretty happy with the sound, but characterize it as bluesy (which is what I would have guessed, pats self on back).

 

Ellen, this might be a great little guitar to either hold on to or to try to find someone that is looking for that sound, a let you move on to something that fits your needs. See what your setup person says - like scalloping replacing the bridge needs to be done right (both with the correct clamps and cauls) and to get the position accurate.

[catdaddy]

 

Originally posted by guitarist21 A while ago I had a thread about wanting a small body guitar with lots of low end. I've since reconsidered buying a new one after playing a couple shows with my '65 Gibson LG-0. Its all Mahogany and has a unique, woody sort of tone that's a nice balance between spruce and cedar. Its small, but responds great to flatpicking, even hard strumming, which I do a lot at shows. It also plays great and stays in tune up the neck. My only gripe is that the low end is almost non-existant Any other suggestions for improving low-end response short of buying a new guitar? Ellen

 

 

I have a '69 Gibson Hummingbird that I bought new. As you've described with your LG-0, the H-bird had great tone and playability but never had the bass end or projection that I wanted. I finally decided to take it to a luthier and have him evaluate what could be done to give me more volume and bottom end. He told me that by scalloping the braces (as Freeman mentioned in his post) and replacing the bridge he could accomplish this. I let him do it and couldn't be happier with the results. The bass improved significantly and although its not quite a "canon" it now holds it own in mixed dread company. Of course my Hummingbird is a larger guitar than your LG-0 so your results may not be as dramatic but I think that the structural similarity of Gibsons from that era might make it worth a try.

Best of luck to ya!

[guitarist21]

 

Originally posted by Treborklow Curious as to where you are taking it, what city in IL?

 

 

I see your in the NW suburbs. In the SW suburbs, there's a little town called Western Springs in which there's a little guitar shop called Stone Grove Guitar. I know the owner and he's very knowledgable and does a great job.

 

Where do you go for stuff like this, Treborklow? I've not had a lot of luck finding great luthiers in the Chicago area and if you know any and could tell me that would be nice.

 

My guy said that he doesn't want to do any of the scalloping, as he's never done that before, so I'm going to check out those links from Freeman (thanks!) and see what happens.

 

Thanks for all the help! Lots of good ideas and wisdom here.

 

Ellen

[Red House]

The LR Baggs Element is pretty good for amplification and costs about $100, although installation will be extra. And if you play it amplified at shows, a little fiddling with the eq can help get a more balanced tone.

[Old_Joe_Clark]

I played a shallowbody washburn A/E for 15 years and always wanted more bass. I tried a Gibson small body thinking that the problem was Washburn....but not so. I finally had an epiphany and bought a Gibson J-150.

[Faheyfan]

I have a 64 Epiphone, forget the model name, but it was the Epi that was identical to the Gibson B-25 at the time. Very similar in size to the LGO but with a spruce top. One thing I've tried on it with some success is to use a set of John Pearse Bluegrass strings on it. Thay are essentially the bass strings from a medium set and the treble strings from a light set. Not only will it increase the volume of the bass some, but will change the balance of the sound a bit as you are not simultaneously upping the string gauge on the top. Also changes the playing feel of the guitar less than going to all mediums for the same reason. Other posters are probably correct though in saying that no matter what, a small body guitar is just that. No amount of work or playing with strings is going to make my Epi sound like a dred like my old Guild D-35 for example. If it were me, I would rather look around for a larger guitar that suited me than alter a beautiful old instrument. After all, having a luthier alter the bracing will permanently change the guitar with no guarantee of improvement.

[nip]

If it mainly is the sound you are getting in a PA that is poor low end, and not the acoustic sound that is lacking, electronics may be worth a try.

 

Something where you can blend internal body sound with body mounted something. I'm really into experimenting with this so I cannot give precise advise yet.

 

I'm thinking of going with a K&K Pure Western to start with. These are mounted on the bridge plate, and gives you more of the wooden top sound, than the average under saddle stuff that tend to be mostly strings sounding.

 

If not satisfied with step one above, there is a extension kit with a condenser microphone mounted within body, that you blend with the soundboardsensors. So you get a stereo outlet on guitar and a preamp with a clip for waistemounting.

 

Fishman also has soundboard sensors to mix with the under saddle stuff.

 

Just to get some ideas anyway.

[Queequeg]

I mentioned that I recently sold my LGO, and that, in a nutshell, was the reason, even though I liked the looks of the guitar. After I sold it I purchased a Larrivee 00-60. cute little guy. they're not always easy to find but Dave @ Guitar Adoptions had one.

By comparison, it roars. I paid too much for the Gibson when I bought it a few years ago and sold it too cheap. but that's another story. In the end, I got a really nice small guitar with a pretty big voice (for a dbl ought).

pretty, too. (click to enlarge)

(the one in the middle) better pics at the link above at Dave's website.

[Treborklow]

 

Originally posted by Freeman Keller For some of these folks it is certainly not a "low budget" guitar - people have paid 700 to 900 in some cases.

 

 

When new it was. Gibson has described it themselves as a budget student model. It was one of their entry level acoustics at the time. Like any old guitar with the Gibson name on it it has increased in collectors value.

 

I owned one for many years and I liked it alot. The early issues (late 50's very early '60's) with the rosewood bridge bring in the most money depending on condition. Probably $700 up to $1200 for near mint examples. On the other hand, the later (early mid 60's to early 70's) and far more common plastic bridge versions usually sells for $400 to $700. With this model, people who replace the plastic bridge with rosewood, and if it's done well, can usually sell for a bit more than the plastic bridge version. The plastic bridge is well hated in LGO-land. Even Gibson now admits it was a mistake, but they were trying to make a cheap guitar even cheaper back then. The plasic bridge is actually harmful to the top and has ruined many guitars over time.

 

There was another model that is all mahogany that is sometimes confused with the LGO and that was the B15. The difference is the LGO has the nice tortoise binding and the B15 did not.

[guitarist21]

The plastic bridge does appear to be warping the top a little. It seems as though it is actually pulling the top out, making it more like a bowl. This is scary and I don't want it to pop off. I'm really concerned about it and would like to get it replaced ASAP.

 

Treborklow, where do you go for stuff like this?

 

Ellen

[Treborklow]

 

Originally posted by guitarist21 The plastic bridge does appear to be warping the top a little. It seems as though it is actually pulling the top out, making it more like a bowl. This is scary and I don't want it to pop off. I'm really concerned about it and would like to get it replaced ASAP. Treborklow, where do you go for stuff like this? Ellen

 

 

My personal luthier/repair tech is a fellow named Scott Bond. He owns Fat Cat Guitars in Carpentersville. I would trust him with any repair on any of my guitars. I've had him do things to most of them. A bridge replacement on the LGO would not be a big job unless there is some bracing damage under the top. Otherwise it's a simple matter of removing the plastic one and gluing on a replacement.

[Terry Allan Hall]

Originally posted by guitarist21 I just went and got my guitar, because I'm about to take it to the guy who sets up my guitars and see what he says. FK: the saddle is already plastic. I didn't really know this. AND!! HORROR OF ALL HORRORS!! The BRIDGE is plastic also! I'm going to see if I can't get it replaced and get a rosewood one, or something. Ellen

 

Having a rosewood (or better yet, an ebony) bridge will do wonders for your guitar, Ellen....definitely worth the price of conversion!

 

Have a UST installed passively at the same time, get yourself a Baggs PADI and you'll be set...you'll be able to balance out the tone w/ the Baggs, too!

[bjorn-fjord]

In general, ladder braced guitars (as opposed to x-braced) tend to lack bass responsiveness. It's just the nature of the beast. You may be able to improve the bass by scalloping the braces but don't expect a huge improvement.