Members epi playa Posted August 30, 2006 Members Posted August 30, 2006 hi there i was wondering if i should buy a martin D16R or the D28. the sound is the same and the only differance thats buggin me is the D16 is mortise and tenon and the D28 is dovetail joint. im not in it gfor the money or collecting but i do wonder if the D16 will sound better as it ages like the D28 will. and is there any issues beside the joint thing between these two guitars.
Members EvilTwin Posted August 30, 2006 Members Posted August 30, 2006 Originally posted by epi playa hi there i was wondering if i should buy a martin D16R or the D28. the sound is the same and the only differance thats buggin me is the D16 is mortise and tenon and the D28 is dovetail joint. im not in it gfor the money or collecting but i do wonder if the D16 will sound better as it ages like the D28 will. and is there any issues beside the joint thing between these two guitars. Well, you said that to your ears they sound the same. If the sound is equal to your ears, it'd be kinda pointless to spend more money on a guitar that doesn't sound any better (unless the reputation of the model matters to you). However, there are some differences spec-wise, according to Martin... http://www.mguitar.com/guitars/choosing/guitars.php?p=m&m=D-16R http://www.mguitar.com/guitars/choosing/guitars.php?p=m&m=D-28 They have differently braced tops, and the bracing on one is scalloped while the others is not. The 16 has a corian nut, the 28 has bone. The 16 has a tusq saddle, the 28 has bone. The 28 has Gotoh tuners, while the 16's appear to be Martin's own. Each individual guitar is going to age differently. It all comes down to your ears and your budget. If you're blindfolded, do you hear a difference? And if you do, is it worth the price? Only you can answer, my friend.
Members d28andm1911a1 Posted August 30, 2006 Members Posted August 30, 2006 Should be about a $350 price differenceStreet price on the 16 should be about $1380 and the 28 $1710 for the 28. If they sound the same to you, and if you can handle the $350 difference get the the D-28. Not because the 16 may not be as good but because the D-28 is THE GUITAR and every picker should own one in their life. My D-28 is 30+ yrs now and I don't even play dreds at all anymore but it's still sitting there in the corner.
Members Freeman Keller Posted August 30, 2006 Members Posted August 30, 2006 They are both great guitars. My humble take on this is that the D-28 is the gold standard - period. The 16R is an attempt by Martin to make the 28 a little more affordable. The bracing is different, and should have an affect on the sound - but I can't say what (I've listened to the difference between scalloped and non, but not between classic X and the hybrid). The MT neck is done for production reasons - it takes a lot less hand labor to fit, but it is still a glued joint that will someday require work. There have been long arguements between the Martin purists on whether there are tone differences - some think there are - but it is sure going to be subtle. Appointments on the 16R is just a little less fancy, thus the $300 difference quoted above. btw - tboth neck joints will be covered under warranty to the original owner if you buy it new. My two cents are first - if you want the standard and someday down the line will say to yourself "self, I wish I had bought a D28", then you've answered your questions. Second, if you say to yourself "self, that D16R sounds just like a D28 and look at all the money I saved and, damn, I'm happy..." You've just answered your question. They are both great guitars
Members JasmineTea Posted August 30, 2006 Members Posted August 30, 2006 If Collings uses an MT neck joint it must be ok, and Martin's warranty is the same for both guitars. I have a D-16GT and I don't have any "28" GAS. Buying a guitar because it's "the gold standard" is the wrong reason for buying. Buy a guitar that sounds and plays and feels good to you.
Members dwerlin Posted August 30, 2006 Members Posted August 30, 2006 Originally posted by JasmineTea I have a D-16GT and I don't have any "28" GAS. Buying a guitar because it's "the gold standard" is the wrong reason for buying. Buy a guitar that sounds and plays and feels good to you. exactly I currently have HUGE gas for a D-16GT. Just went to guitar center during lunch...the D-16GT there sang out to me...damn wife and son to consider ! The guy even offered it to me for $945 out the door...so damn tempting. But alas, my wife would kill me. I also played the D-28, but it did nothing for me over what the D-16GT did...though maybe I'm just not a fan of rosewood for sides and back
Members JasmineTea Posted August 30, 2006 Members Posted August 30, 2006 Originally posted by dwerlin The guy even offered it to me for $945 out the door $945 is high. You should get a quote from Elderly. No doubt they'll come in around $840 or so. Go back to GC and show them the quote, supposedly they'll meat or beat it. Elderly puts the list price alongside the MAP (minimum advertised price) on the site for Martins, but I know for a fact they'll go as low as 35-40% off list. Most good shops will.
Members dwerlin Posted August 30, 2006 Members Posted August 30, 2006 Originally posted by JasmineTea $945 is high. You should get a quote from Elderly. No doubt they'll come in around $840 or so. Go back to GC and show them the quote, supposedly they'll meat or beat it. Elderly puts the list price alongside the MAP (minimum advertised price) on the site for Martins, but I know for a fact they'll go as low as 35-40% off list. Most good shops will. thanks for the info! *edit* bah, elderly apparently cannot do "email" quotes of Martin guitars anymore...they say you have to call. i sincerely doubt guitar center will match a price quoted over the phone. oh well. the D-16GT at my guitar center also had some awesome matched bearclaw action going on, it was beautiful!
Members rjoxyz Posted August 30, 2006 Members Posted August 30, 2006 I had the chance to A-B a couple D-28s against D-16R a few months ago at Elderly while buying my HD-28. I was really impressed with the D-16R. While the tone was very close in nature to the D-28s, the 28s were a little richer and fuller to my ear. There were a few minutes where I was thinking the 16 might just be the way to go. It was VERY close to the D-28. In the end, it was the HD that won me over, but it would have been a tough choice between the D-28 and the D-16R.
Members guitarcapo Posted August 30, 2006 Members Posted August 30, 2006 If the price difference was only 350 bucks I'd go with the D-28. It won't depreciate as much.
Members valleyguy Posted August 30, 2006 Members Posted August 30, 2006 Two years ago I faced this choice. I already had a mahogany Guild and started out wanting a D28 with its rosewood tone. I was at a store that had the D28, D16R and the D16rgt. The difference between the three was very subtle and to say that one was better than the other is a personal preference. I chose the D16R, it had slightly more volume than the D28 and I actually liked its sound better, plus it was $400 cheaper (a not-insignificant $ amount to me). The difference between the D16R and D16rgt was also subtle, but for the small difference in price, I thought the D16R was the better buy, better looking and better sounding. However, let YOUR ears be the guide. I still continue to play a lot of instruments and don't regret my decision. That HD28, though, does keep calling me.....
Members D-28 Posted August 31, 2006 Members Posted August 31, 2006 D-28 Mine was made the year I was born (1958 ) so it might sound different than a new one.
Members knockwood Posted August 31, 2006 Members Posted August 31, 2006 Originally posted by dwerlin thanks for the info! *edit* bah, elderly apparently cannot do "email" quotes of Martin guitars anymore...they say you have to call. i sincerely doubt guitar center will match a price quoted over the phone. oh well. the D-16GT at my guitar center also had some awesome matched bearclaw action going on, it was beautiful! I was able to talk down a local dealer in NY considerably by getting him to match a price quote from Elderly. They're a huge name in the industry, and all a dealer has to do to verify the quote is make a call - should be worth it to them to make a sale to you. Worth a shot. Either way, if you've fallen for a particular one, grab it if you can. Nice bearclaw on a 16 is unusual. Great series, IMHO, and very good bang for buck at under 1k retail.
Members Bilbo Posted August 31, 2006 Members Posted August 31, 2006 D-16 Bolt onD-28 Dove tail No choice, and, no matter what Chris Martin says, makes a difference. Dove tail makes the Martin thump like a rabbit.
Members JasmineTea Posted August 31, 2006 Members Posted August 31, 2006 Originally posted by dwerlin *edit* bah, elderly apparently cannot do "email" quotes of Martin guitars anymore...they say you have to call. i sincerely doubt guitar center will match a price quoted over the phone.Call 'em. GC knows darn well that other shops go as low as 40% off list, sometimes lower. And consider the dud factor: The next D-16GT you run across may not sound as good to you as the one at GC. Not meant as a slam against Martin, and I do not like GC, but the fact is acoustic guitars are not consistant.
Members Freeman Keller Posted August 31, 2006 Members Posted August 31, 2006 Originally posted by Bilbo D-16 Bolt onD-28 Dove tailNo choice, and, no matter what Chris Martin says, make a difference. Dove tail makes the Martin thump like a rabbit. Not exactly - D-16 MT, glued, a thing that looks like a dry wall screw, almost no hand labor in the fitting D-28 Dovetail, totally a wedging action for the fit. Glued, no metal in the joint, totally hand fit (when the neck is fit to the body they are marked so that they can be matched up later after finishing. The term "bolt on" can mean different things from one or two bolts with no glue to the Taylor NT to a MT. Extensive arguements on whether anyone can hear a difference - you can't A/B them with Martin because there are no two guitars in the line up where that is the only difference in materials or construction. As was pointed out, Collings uses an MT joint of some sort and most people feel they make a pretty good sounding dread. Traditionalist prefer the dovetail because, well, that is the way they used to do it. Cumpiano call the dovetail a "joint designed in hell". The feeling is that when it needs a reset an MT will be almost as much work (and cost) as a DT - it still has to be steamed apart. This subject has been beat bloody on the Martin forum.
Members dwerlin Posted August 31, 2006 Members Posted August 31, 2006 yeah, i did consider calling them for a price match just to give it a shot...but then i got to thinking, this was actually the only D-16GT i've ever played...so while i thought it sounded great, i have no other D-16GT's to compare it to. i think i may shop around a little more first before coming to a final decision. i guess the way i see it is if i do decide to get that particular guitar at that particular guitar center, but then when i go it's not there, than i wasn't meant to buy it in the first place
Members Bilbo Posted September 1, 2006 Members Posted September 1, 2006 Originally posted by Freeman Keller Traditionalist prefer the dovetail because, well, that is the way they used to do it. Cumpiano call the dovetail a "joint designed in hell". The feeling is that when it needs a reset an MT will be almost as much work (and cost) as a DT - it still has to be steamed apart. This subject has been beat bloody on the Martin forum. Well, can you beat this? You can't be saying there's no difference between a bolted on finger joint and a dovetail joint? Heck, you don't really need glue in a dovetail joint. And guess what? The bolt on's, like Martin cheapos and Taylors, don't have the thump. That's all there is to it. Buy the D-28. But play as many as you can before you buy, there are a few clunkers out there. Contrary to popular opinion, you want the grain to be wide, not tight, and you'll get a better overall sound.
Members JasmineTea Posted September 1, 2006 Members Posted September 1, 2006 Sounds like we've got another "expert" on the board.
Members kwakatak Posted September 1, 2006 Members Posted September 1, 2006 I finally got to try a D-28 and even a HD-28 for the first a few weeks ago. Then I picked up an HD-35 and forgot all about the -28s. At $2500+ it's a bit out of my range but now I know what to shoot for!
Members t60 fan Posted September 1, 2006 Members Posted September 1, 2006 One thing I'd throw into the discussion: do you ever sell your guitars or do you tend to keep'em forever (which I do)? If resale is ever a possiblility, I'd say there's a bigger market for a used D28, but then I'm no expert.
Members Freeman Keller Posted September 1, 2006 Members Posted September 1, 2006 Originally posted by Bilbo Well, can you beat this? You can't be saying there's no difference between a bolted on finger joint and a dovetail joint? My original post says there is a very big difference in the neck joints and that some people think they can hear a difference. In my very limited experience of building a couple of dovetails - they are very labor intensive to get the angles right without any gaps in the heel. The following are some people whose opinions I respect. There seems to be some disagreement as to whether there are significant differences between a MT neck joint and a dovetail. If you can hear "thump" and are willing to pay for the extra hand labor to make it happen - more power to you. If you can't - more power to you. Clipped from UMGF Summary #1223. Bolted necks: Has Martin investigated this?I just reviewed the frets.com articles on the Taylor bolted neck joint and the ease with which these necks can be reset compared with the procedure for resetting Martin necks. In fact, I got the heebie jeebies when I read the frets.com article on resetting Martin necks showing the need to drill through a fret slot and then injecting steam into the guitar to loosen the neck joint glue in order to remove the neck. I am wondering if Martin, during the modern era, has investigated the use of bolted necks instead of glued necks, and, if so, what was the outcome of their investigation. Outwardly, it appears that the bolted neck is a good idea provided that it doesn
Members Freeman Keller Posted September 1, 2006 Members Posted September 1, 2006 because the UMGF wouldn't fit in one pane, here is the rest. You all know I really respect what Kimsey has to say. Bryan Kimsey: 1) Collings, Taylor, Martin bolt-ons are all different, as John Arnold pointed out. 2) I used to be a dovetail only guy, but Mario Proulx (I'm his US warranty guy) convinced me otherwise. He's done things like build a dovetail guitar, then covert that same neck to a bolt-on in the same guitar. That's about as good of an A/B as you can get. 3) the Martin M/T bolt IS strong enough to hold the neck in all by itself. I've tested it. No glue in the joint, the bolt will hold the neck to the body under full tension. In fact, I would say that the glue merely adds strength to the system and the bolt is really the primary factor. There's just no way that glue alone will hold that joint together. Also, I've "fixed" some neck joints by simply tightening up the screw. A few have needed a little steam to loosen the glue, then the screw pulled it all together and I left it to dry. IMHO, it's a fine system. 4) The Taylor neck adds a LOT of weight to the neck joint. I'm a fan of light guitars. The more bolts and screws and non-glued joints you use, the more chances for a sympathetic rattle. 5) A neck reset isn't that big of a deal. There's no reason to get chills about steaming one out. It definitely is no where on the same plane as, say, brain surgery. McCawber: I read an interview with Bob Taylor in Flatpicker magazine a couple of years ago. I don't remember the exact question, but he was essentially asked about how he completes with Martin and others on tone. His response was that the real goal of Tayler guitars was innovation, not tone. Taylor has certainly created innovation in the industry == and there's nothing wrong with innovation -- but if tone isn't the original goal . . . ? FenderJazzMan: From talking to a very knowledgeable Martin customer support person just earlier today while trying to understand more about this topic, I got the impression that 2/3 of the reason they still do the Dove tail is to keep their purist (Bread and butter) client happy.. It's not worth the fight he said to try to explain to them that the cost savings of the Mortis and Tenon / glue neck carries no negative effects in terms of tone and allowed for them to make the particular instrument at a substantial savings, and therefore transfer more of the cost into better materials. I get the impression that Martin could re-vamp their entire production to mortis and tenon, they would.. but there is something to be said for the old saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".. unless you're having to pay all of that additional cost to make it that is.. Epaul: No, Andrew, there is no research showing a lighter guitar to be better than a heavy guitar, or visa-versa. Basically, there is very little good research on guitar sound production period. Individuals here and there have done some of this and some of that, but basically, there are just too many guitar parameters to isolate and consider and too little interest and money to do it. Some beta on different neck joints necks http://p082.ezboard.com/ftheunofficialmartinguitarforumfrm2.showMessage?topicID=11357.topic http://p082.ezboard.com/ftheunofficialmartinguitarforumfrm2.showMessage?topicID=11243.topic http://www.cumpiano.com/Home/Articles/Special%20interest/headblock.htmlhttp://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Guitar/NeckReset/00028Reset/00028reset01.html http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Guitar/NeckReset/CollingsReset/collingsreset.html http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Guitar/NeckReset/TaylorReset/taylorreset.html Lets rest this one FK
Members Bilbo Posted September 1, 2006 Members Posted September 1, 2006 Originally posted by JasmineTea Sounds like we've got another "expert" on the board. I wouldn't say that, junior. 37 years of buying, selling, building, repairing, playing, recording. I guess I'm starting to learn just a little bit. I'll give you this much. It comes down to our opinions, based on experience. I've tripped on over to the Martin factory with informed players and compared these models side by side, that's the opinion of myself and some fairly informed individuals, hence the continuing discussion between the pro and con sides. Random recall. My engineer buddy and I met with Martin reps to discuss a fix on a generic buzz problem they had on most of their 90's low E strings. They wanted it for free, we kept the secret to ourselves. I wanted that D-18 twelvth (sp?) fret rerelease and my buddy wanted $1500 cash in unmarked bills.
Members JasmineTea Posted September 1, 2006 Members Posted September 1, 2006 Originally posted by Bilbo It comes down to our opinions, based on experience. I suggest you keep that in mind, junior. You're not the only one out here with 37 years of experience.
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.