12 Stringers?

[batotman]

Ok its been biting me lately. I played a few $1600 Taylors (nice but waaaaay more than I'm willing to spend), a Schecter C-1 12 string (maybe a GC exclusive? never seen one anywhere else), a Fender Strat XII (blah), a Ric 360/12 (only Ric I've seen that didn't feel like a pile of crap but the neck was a bit crowded), an Alvarez 12 (nice, almost bought it but noticed a huge crack on the top).

 

So whats good and whats cheap (nothing tooooo cheap!)?

 

Under $400-500, acoustic or electric. Cheaper the better but nothing made of cardboard and the like.... Hell I'd even play the Rogue if it sounded good enough. I like a full sound if that makes any difference. It likely won't get a ton of playing time.

 

I posted this in EG but didn't have much luck.

[t60 fan]

I played a Garrison 12er a couple of years ago that I did like, but they only made dreads, at least back then.

 

For what it's worth, I love my 354. It's the sweetest 12-string I've played yet.

[Freeman Keller]

Eppito? calling Eppito? Terry? calling TAH?

 

 

There a several members of this forum with 12 strings (and strong opinions about them) including me.

 

Eppito has a Seagull and I've heard recordings of it and it is lovely

TAH has Guilds and a Taylor 355 and I've heard recordings and they also are wonderful.

I have an old Martin, which I dearly love, but it isn't quite the right guitar for me, so I'm in the process of building one.

 

Here are some things to think about

 

1) What kind of music do you want to play and what kind of sound do you want from your 12'er? Some woods will sound jangly (Mr Tamborene Man), some will sound growly (Leo Kottke), and will be bluesy (EC unplugged). What sound do you want?

 

2) How will you play it? My dread is a big boomy flatpick/strum monster - but I fingerpick and play slide. A balanced body like a GA might be a better fingerstyle, and a Jumbo is a heck of a strummer.

 

3) Don't know about that particular model (in fact I am not familiar with any of those gits) but many Ricks are strung bass ackwards (the first string you hit on a down stroke is the octave on most 12's, but not a Rick). It does give a different sound.

 

4) 12 strings are under a lot of stress. I would err towards buying a good quality one with a warranty - neck problems are pretty common. Guilds even have two truss rods.

 

5) Because of (4) I would hesitate to buy a used one, certainly not unless I had checked it structurally very thoroughly. There are a lot of older 12's that are simply unplayable because of neck, bridge and other issues (I just put $700 into fixing my 25 y.o. Martin, but I felt it was worth it). I briefly owned an old Yamie until I realized why the p.o. had sold it to me so cheaply - it was virtually unplayable.

 

6) I think the best 12 strings on the market today are Taylors and Guilds. T's especially if you want electronics. They are probably out of your price range tho. I've heard some good things about Carvins A/E 12 and there is a new lady on HC with a line called Timberland that look pretty nice. And I keep coming back to Eppito's Seagull - that thing was sweet!

 

Twelve strings have been called the Grand Pianos of the guitar world and they are ball to play. Just be very wise in your shopping and what you select.

[Michael Martin]

You want electric or acoustic? Or just anything? I like my Tak F395 (jumbo acoustic, Guild copy). Great full sound, gorgeous to hold and to behold. I paid a bit more than $500 for it 3-4 yrs ago. On ebay I see other Tak 12s go for a good bit less, but can't personally vouch for any other Tak model cuz I haven't played 'em.

[batotman]

I don't have any sound in mind. Just want it to screw around with. I have 17 electrics and play mostly through a Bogner Uber so this is a complete 180 from what I am used to playing.....

[Freeman Keller]

Suggestion then is to get out and play as many as you can. Take some notes too because you will find 12's tuned normally (E) or often down two half steps (D). This is done for really 3 reasons - it dramatically lowers the tension on the neck and top, (2) it makes them easier to fret (altho I personally believe that a well set up 12 can be as easy to play as a 6), and (3) it kills a lot of the jangle and gives more of a growl.

 

A bunch of 12 string player hang out at the Cafe' (mostly Marty guys here, but everyone has twice as much fun), you might want to do some lurking

 

12 String Cafe

[Eppito]

Stand back, I'm about to gush.......I recommend the Seagull S12+. This guitar has a solid cedar top, lam wildcherry back and sides, rosewood fingerboard and bridge. The neck and fingerboard are ample, but not so much that you won't find it comfortable. I got mine at Musicianbuy.com...$419.00 for the guitar, one buck for the case! If that deal is still on, you'd be getting a very playable and nice sounding instrument.

 

It might be better if you could go to a store to try one out, as 12ers can be a shock to the mind and hands at first meeting. I'm very pleased with mine and after five months still can't put it down.

 

Whatever you decide, I agree with Freeman, tune it low; G, open D, dropped D, and the like. This will extend the life of the instrument and it will roar.

 

Happy hunting!

[Freeman Keller]

Thanks, 'bro. I couldn't remember the model of your 'gull (and I guess I had forgotten the cedar top too).

 

My quick take on tone woods

 

Maple - bright and jangly - you either love it or not. To me it says 60's folkie

 

Rosewood - the complexity of rose is almost too much on a 12. The darn things have so many overtones anyway do they need any more? That said, my D12-28 is rose and my new one will be too - I happen to love the looks and grain.

 

Mahogany - the choice of Kottke and Proctor and TAH and T60 fan and so many others. I think that 'hog (or its cousin sapelle) is the best wood for a 12 string

 

Koa - half way between rose and 'hog. I've only played a couple but they were wonderful.

 

Laminate - not necessarily bad. It would make the back and sides fairly neutral and let the top speak.

 

Tops - some folks argue that Adi makes a better top for a 12 than Sitka due to its strengh. I will be using Adi braces in my new one, but some nicely bearclawed Sitka for the top. Cedar is certainly a good choice - it tends to be a little mellower which wouldn't hurt a 12 at all. It is, however, much more fragile - I would want to feel good about the bracing.

 

Eppito is right about "ample" - the necks are about 1-7/8 wide at the nut, but I don't have any problems going form a 1-3/4 six string to the 12. Profile might be something else - the Taylor (and Larrivee?) are a little thinner profile that some. Again, maybe Terry can comment on the Taylor vs Guild.

 

If you are an electric player and plan to play up the neck be aware that many 12's have lousy intonation (think about two different diameter strings having exactly the same lenght). The saddle can be compensated (mine has been) but one more reason to play and listen to it. If you are going to stay in the first position you'll never notice it.

[t60 fan]

Originally posted by Freeman Keller Mahogany - the choice of Kottke and Proctor and TAH and T60 fan and so many others. I think that 'hog (or its cousin sapelle) is the best wood for a 12 string.

 

Well, actually mine's Blackwood, which while similar to Koa, definitely is "darker" sounding, more bass, holds up well to strumming but very responsive to fingerstyle.

[Eppito]

Thanks for the link to 12 - String Cafe, Freeman. As it turns out, I'm a member there, but I'm having trouble logging in...man, I belong to too many forums (I have no recollection of joining).

 

At some point in my future, I'd love to own a Guild F512, though I was warned by a friend (tried one, doesn't own one) that the overtones, depending on how hard you attack the strings, can be overwhelming, and difficult to control. Still, I love rosewood and would like to have one before I sing with the choir invisible. As you've heard, the overtones on the Gull are significant, but nothing compared to a jumbo rosewood 12er, I'm sure.

 

My friend who helped me get the Seagull thinks I'm insane to want another 12er (and I'll be doing a post on a 12er I have interest in soon), but what can I say - the darn things are addicting, ESPECIALLY if you have a stairway, tiled bathroom, or "wet room" (room devoid of furniture).

[DADGADammit]

if you are looking for a cheaper electric 12 string may i recommend the Danelectro DC12. they go for less than 500 on ebay all the time, often much less and are often called the "poor man's rick". my friend has one and it really does sound great, not quite a rick, but very very nice, and awesome for the price

[Rada]

Get an Art & Lutherie 12 string if you're looking in that price range

 

I know a guy who gigs regularly with one...it sounds pretty amazing

[california]

 

Originally posted by Eppito Thanks for the link to 12 - String Cafe, Freeman. As it turns out, I'm a member there, but I'm having trouble logging in...man, I belong to too many forums (I have no recollection of joining). At some point in my future, I'd love to own a Guild F512, though I was warned by a friend (tried one, doesn't own one) that the overtones, depending on how hard you attack the strings, can be overwhelming, and difficult to control. Still, I love rosewood and would like to have one before I sing with the choir invisible. As you've heard, the overtones on the Gull are significant, but nothing compared to a jumbo rosewood 12er, I'm sure. My friend who helped me get the Seagull thinks I'm insane to want another 12er (and I'll be doing a post on a 12er I have interest in soon), but what can I say - the darn things are addicting, ESPECIALLY if you have a stairway, tiled bathroom, or "wet room" (room devoid of furniture).

 

 

Hey Eppito --

 

I was with you on the 512 until I got my JF65-12 (cousin to the F-412). At first I thought -- where's the boom? -- but after playing them side by side the 512 was really overwhelming, while the balance overall on the maple bodies was far superior. When you're playing for yourself there is nothing sweeter, the softer bass of the maple guitar really supports the brighter highs. Oh yeah, and you really learn to fall in love with that beautiful maple flame pattern in a hurry.

 

Having said that, If I'm banging it out for a crowd, my old Yamaha can really make folks stand up and notice.

[california]

Originally posted by batotman Ok its been biting me lately. So whats good and whats cheap (nothing tooooo cheap!)? Under $400-500, acoustic or electric. Cheaper the better but nothing made of cardboard and the like.... Hell I'd even play the Rogue if it sounded good enough. I like a full sound if that makes any difference. It likely won't get a ton of playing time. I posted this in EG but didn't have much luck.

 

Under $500 a Yamaha or Epihone... there have been some great buys in 12s on eBay lately, I just saw a beautiful Yamaha rosewood 12 in a local vintage shop for around $350.00. Bound fretboard and the works... a very sweet guitar.

[batotman]

This is more complicated than I expected.....lol.

[Terry Allan Hall]

In your price range, you might be able to find a used Guild F-212 (jumbo) or D-212 (dreadnaught)...these are excellent guitars, if they've been taken care of properly, and the sound of a mahogany 12-string can't be beat (IMABO)...great for strumming, fingerpicking OR flat-picking.

 

The Taylor 355 is also great, but finding one in that price range is going to be harder.

 

I keep my two F-212XLs in "Open G" and "Open D/DADGAD" and my sapele b/s'd 355 in standard.

 

Hope this helps.

[WaveRay]

I shopped for a 12 string for a few months before deciding on the one I have. It is a Taylor 455CE. It's a special early year run of the 400 series done with rosewood b/s and sitka top with great (IMO) results. The extra bottom end of the rosewood balances the typically diminished low of both the Taylor line and the average 12 string guitar. I have admitedly not played all the 12 strings listed in this thread but think the one I have is the sweetest sounding 12 string I could possibly have in my house. And, as with any 12 string I would own, it has lights on it.

 

Again, My opinion.

[batotman]

Maybe I should just get a cheap Epiphone DR 212.

 

Or a Washburn D10S 12?

[Eppito]

Hey, california, isn't the J65-12 out of production? I heard a few other players rave over it.

[ESL94]

I love my Seagull 12

 

I have a 05 - Seagull M12 - (bright tone)

Mahogany w/a Spruce top

$534 w/case - great deal

 

http://www.seagullguitars.com/productm12gloss.htm

 

If you want a deeper tone ck. out the S12

 

http://www.seagullguitars.com/products12%2B.htm

 

 

 

 

[california]

 

Originally posted by Eppito Hey, california, isn't the J65-12 out of production? I heard a few other players rave over it.

 

 

According to Hans, th JF65-12 was made in Westerly from the mid to late '90s. It is like the F-412 but with more detail in bindings and with abalone inlay around the tone hole. I don't think I've ever played a twelve with lower action that doesn't buzz, and the tone has an incredible balance. when everything's in tune (thank God for the little Seiko!) the chords are almost orchestral. As i mentione earlier, I had been looking for a rosewood twelve, like an F-512, but I think my search has ended for a while, this one's a keeper!

[Eppito]

I think I have seen them online somewhere, Cal. I'm sure some probably turn up on ebay from time to time. It'll be a while before I'm ready to buy, but I may keep it in mind, along with the Atlas series of Breedlove.

[Beachbum]

I'm trying to decide between two different 12 strings right now. An Alvarez AJ60S12 and a Takamine EG523SC-12.

 

Both have an internal tuner which is MANDATORY for me because most 12 stringers spend half of their time tuning and the other half playing out of tune.

 

I'm leaning toward the Takamine due to the split bridge (separate bridge for the 4 highest tone strings, separate bridge for all of the wound strings) and the strings go through the tail/bridge rather than using pegs.

 

Just to add to the confusion....

[Terry Allan Hall]

Originally posted by Beachbum I'm trying to decide between two different 12 strings right now. An Alvarez AJ60S12 and a Takamine EG523SC-12. Both have an internal tuner which is MANDATORY for me because most 12 stringers spend half of their time tuning and the other half playing out of tune. I'm leaning toward the Takamine due to the split bridge (separate bridge for the 4 highest tone strings, separate bridge for all of the wound strings) and the strings go through the tail/bridge rather than using pegs. Just to add to the confusion....

 

Of those two, I'd go w/ the Alvarez AJ60S12...better guitar for the dinero!

 

That or check out the Guild GAD line, some of which are around the same price, and really sound great!

[Beachbum]

Originally posted by Terry Allan Hall Of those two, I'd go w/ the Alvarez AJ60S12...better guitar for the dinero! That or check out the Guild GAD line, some of which are around the same price, and really sound great!

 

Thanks, I'll check out the Guilds too.