got a rogue 12 string for 99 bucks, but needs adjusting action...

[johnkline]

I decided to try a 12 string out but didn't want to invest a lot of money on the first one, .

 

It seems pretty good after tuning and stretching the strings out, but the action is a lot higher than I'm used to at least. It has medium strings on it, which all my other 6 string guitars have.

 

I've read some info on people replacing the strings with light or custom lights and said it lowered the action? Anyone know what kind of sandpaper to use for sanding down the bridge?

 

Really if anyone can chime in on using lighter strings helps action let me know, otherwise maybe I'll just go to a shop and pay for a set-up.

 

Suprisingly this guitar sounds good and looks nice, and for 99 bucks I don't have to baby it like my other ones!

 

john

 

 

[WaveRay]

I don't see how string gauge can change the action on any guitar unless the neck is made of gumby.

I think that for $8.25 per string you can afford to take it get set up. Probably the best thing to do.

BTW, is the neck adjustable on it? That would make for a better set up.

 

Good luck,

Ray

[Freeman Keller]

Read my sticky "Is My Guitar Sick?". In order - neck angle, relief, nut, saddle - applies to a 12 string too.

 

Then, after you get the action where you like it consider tuning down a one or two half steps AND using light gauge strings.

 

A 6 string with mediums (0.013 - 0.056) has about 190 pounds of tension on the top, a 12 with mediums (0.012 - 0.054) has 365 at concert.

 

For reference - my 12 string - recent neck reset (so I know that is good), relief 0.006, new nut cut for the strings I like (Nano lights), action at the low E 3/32, saddle compensated for all strings. Tuned to D, plays like butter.

[johnkline]

Ray,

 

Yes the neck has an adjustable truss rod, some say it comes with an allen wrench, guess I need to look around in the box as I just took the guitar out like it was christmas

 

 

john

[Freeman Keller]

John, repeat after me - the truss rod is there to adjust the neck relief, not the action. It may affect the action, but that is not its purpose. Please put that wrench away until you know what to do with it.

[jsacoustic]

The saddle on a Rogue can't be anything other than plastic. You can buy them for approximately $1.00. A belt sander, or any stationary sander works great. Mark a reference line across the saddle. Very slowly, and evenly, bring it down.

 

Repeat as necessary.

[WaveRay]

 

Originally posted by Freeman Keller John, repeat after me - the truss rod is there to adjust the neck relief, not the action. It may affect the action, but that is not its purpose. Please put that wrench away until you know what to do with it.

 

 

Very much agreed, FK. My post suggested he take the guitar to be professionally set up and a truss rod would help in that case.

 

Ray

[johnkline]

don't fear I'll be taking it to a shop for a set-up, I don't want to mess with it!

 

john

[KATMAN]

Another worthwhile note,when tuning your guitar,tune it either a half step down or preferably a whole step down.Get a capo,place on the 1st fret for a half step down or at the 2nd if you tune it a whole step down. Most people tune twelve strings a whole step down to avoid bridge damage. It will also play better.Not saying that you shouldn't get it a set up.Do it after the set up. You'll be amazed at the feel.

[HOOMER]

YES.. I AM SHOUTING....NEVER!!!!! SAND down the bridge....you may want to work on the saddle/or nut... learn which is which......for 99 bucks...I agree..your best bet is to spend another couple and have it set up so you can enjoy it.......

[HOOMER]

ps- I've played 12 strings for 30 + years... tune them to play w/ the rest of the band..if "E" aint "E"......keep lookin. Thats like saying only buy a yugo, cuz ya aint goin over 55 anyways.......good luck.....they should be built to be what they are..IMHO....

[Terry Allan Hall]

Tuning any 12-string to "E" using Medium strings is to invite disaster...don't go over .010 to .047 and then you should be able to tune it to concert pitch ("E").

 

And, if you enjoy playing 12-string, start saving for a quality one...your Rogue might last as long as 3 years before the plywood top buckles and/or the bridge pulls off and/or the neck warps, but it may need to be replaced sooner...check out a Taylor 355 or a Guild F-212...something along those lines.

 

In the long run, if a 12-string is an instrument you enjoy playing, then a quality 12-string is a better investment that buying a new cheapie every year or two.

[pulse765]

 

Originally posted by Terry Allan Hall Tuning any 12-string to "E" using Medium strings is to invite disaster...don't go over .010 to .047 and then you should be able to tune it to concert pitch ("E").

 

 

Wait, so 12-string guitars are not really designed to handle 12 strings at standard tuning??

 

That seems pretty stupid to me. If you spend say $2K on a nice Taylor 12-string and have it tuned to standard tuning, it's going to fall apart under the presssure of this?

 

-K

[Freeman Keller]

 

Originally posted by pulse765 Wait, so 12-string guitars are not really designed to handle 12 strings at standard tuning?? That seems pretty stupid to me. If you spend say $2K on a nice Taylor 12-string and have it tuned to standard tuning, it's going to fall apart under the presssure of this? -K

 

 

Most modern 12 strings are warrantied to withstand concert tuning with light strings. Whether that is wise or not is another question.

 

Most modern 12 strings have almost exactly the same bracing as their 6 string equivalent - the only difference is that ususally they aren't scalloped. My Martin has exactly the same bracing as an unscalloped D28, as well has having exactly the same truss rod. The b/p is bigger, but that is the only structural difference. Yet, as you can see from this

 

http://p082.ezboard.com/ftheunofficialmartinguitarforumfrm19.showMessage?topicID=27.topic

 

at concert pitch with mediums the D28 has about 188 pounds of tension on the top, the 12 with mediums can have 366. I just put over $700 into having the neck reset, bridge reglued, b/p replace, lower bout bulge lowered (and setup) on that fine old 12 - and I alway have strung it with lights and tuned down 2 half steps.

 

What seems stupid to me is to spend $2K on a nice Taylor 12 string and not follow their recommendations to string it with lights (or in the case of the LKSM, tune to C#).

[pulse765]

Why not design a 12-string guitar that can better withstand having 12 strings in the first place? Wouldn't you want to have additional bracing in there because of the increased force?

 

Why did they decide to take exactly the same setup as a 6-string and then put twice the number of strings with significantly more pressure exerted on the guitar?

 

Or do modern design techniques not allow us to build a stronger 12-string guitar

 

-K

[Freeman Keller]

Pulse, they do. They just recommend that if you want to tune to concert that reducing the tension on the top makes structural sense.

 

I have dabbled in guitar building and have learned a little bit about how much of a compromise the top of a guitar really is - from the over built Martins of the 70's to the responsiveness of my triple ought (from the scalloping I did) to the fan bracing in a classical. I am currently building a 12 string and have spend many hours agonizing over the way I want it to play.

 

Some of the finest 12 strings ever built were the old ladder brace Stellas - Heddie Ledbetter's for example - but almost every one of them has blown up (literally) from the stress on the top. Ledbelly tuned his to C (four half steps down). The Kottke Taylor is specifically designed to be tune to C# (and I have pictures of the bracing inside a LKSM - fat and scalloped). Guild builds two truss rods into their necks and rarely has relief problems. Taylors are legendary for the sound they get (with light gauge strings).

 

Some of us actually prefer the sound of a 12 tuned down - give me that Kottke growl over a jangly 12 any day, and I love to play slide on mine and really hear it roar - and for that mediums make sense (altho I still use lights on mine)

 

You have already said your action is higher than you like - it will just get worse. You asked if lighter strings will lower the action - it won't. You asked why they can't make a 12 string that can withstand concert pitch with mediums - they do, it's called a Rogue and it sells for 99 bucks

[johnkline]

I'm going to take this guitar to Willcutt's in Lexington on Thursday.

 

35.00 to lower action

20.00 to restring

I have to pay for lights but it's buy one get one free,

12.50 to add a strap button.

 

After that I'll mess around with tuning down 1/2 step, I sing better tuned down on most of the songs I like, then when it falls apart I'll get a good quality 12'er.

 

I'll update after I get it set-up. One thing I've noticed since having it though is the E strings and A strings are a little close compared to the rest as far as spacing goes. I'll let willcutt look at it though....

 

john

[Freeman Keller]

John, I'll bet you'll me much happier with it. Remember that if you are tuned down and have to play with a band or your singing you can always throw a capo on it - common 12 string trick (get a good 12 string capo like a Shubb). I think you'll find the lights much easier to fret - I once heard Leo Kottke play a Bach piece on his old Bozo, when he finished he was sweating and said "{censored}, that was like trying to fret the Golden Gate Bridge" (the Bozo was strung heavy and had a high action for slide).

 

Those are fairly normal prices if the work is well done - you might consider the additional cost of coated strings (like Elixers) just for their life. I really hate restring my 12 so doubling the price of the strings to get 6 or so months is money well spent IMHO.

 

As far as string spacing, the top two courses (pair) can be a little closer - they are always picked together. Some players like Chris Proctor space the bottom course a little wider so he can pick individual strings - mine are just slightly wider because of the diameter of the strings.

 

I hope you enjoy playing your 12 as much as I do - they truely are the Grand Pianos of the guitar world.

[Terry Allan Hall]

Originally posted by pulse765 Wait, so 12-string guitars are not really designed to handle 12 strings at standard tuning?? Sure, if you use a light guage set (usually, .010 thru .047....which for a 6-string would be extra-light, as a 6-string light set is approx. .012 thru .053), modern 12-strings of quality can be tuned to "E"...the 12-string in my avatar is tuned thusly. Older 12-strings can sometimes be tuned to "E"....Older Guilds and Taylors are OK, some Martins and Gibsons can, some can't. As Freeman points out, there's a lot of stress from 12-strings. That seems pretty stupid to me. If you spend say $2K on a nice Taylor 12-string and have it tuned to standard tuning, it's going to fall apart under the presssure of this? No, Taylors and Guilds can pretty much always be tuned to "E" w/ lights, or "D" w/ mediums. All other brands, you take your chances, as many great 6-string makers make "less great" 12-strings (I've run across 3 decent Martin 12s, and maybe 10 Gibsons...) -K

 

[Freeman Keller]

Pulse, in answer to your question, I happened to find this on the T-page talking about how their 12 strings ARE different from their sixers

 

"Taylor 12-strings have thicker tops, thicker pin plates, and heavy, non-scalloped bracing, to support the top and adequately amplify the tone of the guitar. The one exception to this rule is our Leo Kottke Signature Model 12-string (LKSM), which has scalloped bracing designed to work with fat, heavy-gauge, low-tuned strings, to give the guitar its characteristic, "throaty-piano" tone. "

 

Guess they do know what they are doing....

[Tony Burns]

After you get the action down a bit you could either step down to ex-lights or capo the second fret ( or both), that will help take some the tension off of the neck and make it easier to play- I leave my dunlop capo on all the time. Putting less tension on that neck will help make the guitar last longer and youll have fewer problems with it . the force that twelve strings exert on the neck is tremendous - Ive been doing this just about forever on my 1971 Yamaha 12 strings ( bought it new in 1971) and I've never had any problems with it - good luck my friend !