Financial outlay for a guitar?

[Muddslide]

I wondered what people here thought about really high-end guitars. Some of them, and many vintage instruments, just seem wayyy too steep in price to me.

 

There are so many guitars in the $300 range that are great players these days. It bugs me when people feel like they have to spend $1000-$5000 for a good guitar.

 

I know buying cheapies can be a crapshoot, but heck, you can get a luthier to make you one that'll take a third of your yearly income and it still might have issues or not be just what you want.

 

I knew a guy in college who saved up for about 2 years --not buying even a soda pop or paying to do his laundry--to save up for some hair-metal nightmare 1980's Jackson guitar.

 

After he got it he was so worried about anything bad happening to it he wouldn't even let anyone else look at it. That doesn't sound like fun to me. For the money he paid for that guitar, I could have scored 5 decent guitars, a car and an oz. of weed. And I woulda had fun with them.

[Rada]

A lot has to do with nostalgia....

I mean, I think Gibson acoustics are obscenly overpriced, but I'm still going to have a Southern Jumbo, Hummingbird and SJ-200 before I die....I must have them....I grew up wanting them and it's something I'm dead set on getting

Also, when it comes to acoustic guitars different makers have their distinct sound....I'll use Gibson again for an example...you can find many spruce/mahogany dreads on the market, but they won't sound like a Gibson J-45 or Southern Jumbo.....

Not any 12 string, maple jumbo is going to sound like a F-414, and not any spruce/rosewood dread is going to sound like a D-45

[WaveRay]

It all depends on what you're looking for. There has to be a different way people look at or hear an instrument that justifies the price to them. Not to say anybody can hear "better" or "more" than you can, but, perhaps what is heard, in some way, matters in a different way to them than it does to you. I have a $350 Seagull that I love and will probably never get rid of, but do not equate that feeling for me believing it is a nicer guitar than my HD-28V. No freaking way. I don't know if you have already, but if this issue is important to you, I would suggest going out and playing every high-end guitar you can for a few weeks, then pick up your average $300 guitar and see if you can tell a difference. NOT that there aren't very nice $300 dollar guitars, but, I realy believe there is a difference, whether it matters to one or not.
I also spent over $100 for sunglasses. Because, now that I've spent a lot of time in the sun with quality glasses, cheap ones just won't do. Not for smug reasons, just for reasons that thousands of people who buy $100, $200, or $300 glasses, have learned using them in the sun.
Anyway, I, for one, can tell a difference. I hope this has shed some light on your question.

Ray

[Muddslide]

I'm not saying there isn't a difference or that I can't tell the difference.

But is the difference so great that it is worth spending 10 times as much on a guitar? I don't necessarily think every high end guitar is ten times or more better than every $300 guitar.

I do recognize there are differences in resonance and feel, etc. I also think people should get what they want that will bring them joy.

I totally understand having a lifelong dream of owning a Gibby Jumbo or Hummingbird (personally, I'd like an old National tricone reso as long as we're talking lifelong wants)...

I have a moral issue with spending that much on a thing for myself. There's too many hungry people for me personally to feel comfortable having a $3000 guitar in the corner.

Also, I don't personally want things that are so fine and pricey that I have to worry about every smudge on them. I guess I like beaters as long as they are good ones.

Is this reverse snobbery?

[Rada]

Originally posted by Muddslide I'm not saying there isn't a difference or that I can't tell the difference. But is the difference so great that it is worth spending 10 times as much on a guitar? I don't necessarily think every high end guitar is ten times or more better than every $300 guitar. I do recognize there are differences in resonance and feel, etc. I also think people should get what they want that will bring them joy. I totally understand having a lifelong dream of owning a Gibby Jumbo or Hummingbird (personally, I'd like an old National tricone reso as long as we're talking lifelong wants)... I have a moral issue with spending that much on a thing for myself. There's too many hungry people for me personally to feel comfortable having a $3000 guitar in the corner. Also, I don't personally want things that are so fine and pricey that I have to worry about every smudge on them. I guess I like beaters as long as they are good ones. Is this reverse snobbery?

I don't know....I've never been like that with my instruments....I had a $1000 Norman that I just sold and I let anyone play it....it was solid as a rock....

People who don't let others play their instruments or freak out at a scracth are just odd to me....I even know when I get my Gibsons I'll let anyone play it

And about your moral issue...not spending that much on a guitar because others are suffering is bull....that can be used for EVERY SINGLE aspect of your life....we all have our little things that make us happy, guitars and basses are that for me....if I work hard and I save up my own money, I won't feel guilty about having a splurge every now and then....

[Muddslide]

Originally posted by Rada And about your moral issue...not spending that much on a guitar because others are suffering is bull....that can be used for EVERY SINGLE aspect of your life....we all have our little things that make us happy, guitars and basses are that for me....if I work hard and I save up my own money, I won't feel guilty about having a splurge every now and then....

 

 

Oh I agree with you! I'm not saying everyone should feel guilt about buying things they like. I just personally have a problem with it for myself. This in no way means I'm more compassionate or charitable.

 

For one thing, you can't deprive yourself enough or starve yourself enough to feed the whole world.

 

I don't have a problem with $3000+ guitars. I just wouldn't go there myself.

 

My real problem is people who own three mansions, 2 yachts, $50,000 worth of titanium golf clubs, gawdy jewelry and bathrooms outfitted in imported marble and gold fixtures.

 

There's too much poverty, IMHO, for there to be as many billionaires as there are.

[Siwash]

I"m kind of with Muddslide. I think even the average, or less than average, is terrifically well off compared to the rest of the world. . . and our natural resources are also at a point where somehow real conservation needs to take place. . . so I am reluctant to overconsume, or consume as an art form or aesthetic experience, which some people seem to be doing.

[sdelsolray]

Originally posted by Muddslide I don't have a problem with $3000+ guitars. I just wouldn't go there myself.

 

 

That's a good perspective. But keep an open mind for possible change in the future.

 

 

Originally posted by Muddslide My real problem is people who own three mansions, 2 yachts, $50,000 worth of titanium golf clubs, gawdy jewelry and bathrooms outfitted in imported marble and gold fixtures. There's too much poverty, IMHO, for there to be as many billionaires as there are.

 

 

Sounds like you'd rather see these folks to give most of their wealth to the poor. But you don't mind if someone uses their wealth to buy a high end guitar. I'm confused.

[Sweb]

Hey, Muddslide, you are absolutely correct and on-course with your current thinking. Now, as your skills progress so will you're thinking. That is the way of things. Your argument now will forever be valid for a person whose skills - capabilities, ear, style, etc. - are at a particular level. However, if a student of acoustic guitar (serious) is compelled to forever remain the student, those demands will need to be compensated for with better equipment. Otherwise, you're thinking is merely a lament for not being able to afford better gear.

[guitarcapo]

I've played a few 300 dollar guitars that sounded better than 5,000 dollar guitars. And visa versa. I've come to the conclusion that price has nothing to do with the guitar's function as a tool to make music. A 200 dollar quartz watch will tell the same time as a 10,000 dollar Rolex. Maybe even better because a mechanical Rolex isn't as accurate.


But the Rolex is worth more because of the demand and materials used to make it. Same with expensive guitars.

Don't kid yourself that you have to spend thousands to sound good.

[WaveRay]

I don't think you can say that a $3000 guitar is ten times better than a $300 guitar. I think the guitars, as with many things get pricier expodentially. You might have to spend twice as much to get half again as much guitar. So, a $3000 guitar may only be 60 or 70 percent better that the $300 guitar at what your comparing between the two, not the 1000 percent better the price might suggest to you. These figures are, of course, arbitrary. I'm just trying to get an idea across.

[AK47]

Originally posted by Muddslide I don't have a problem with $3000+ guitars. I just wouldn't go there myself. My real problem is people who own three mansions, 2 yachts, $50,000 worth of titanium golf clubs, gawdy jewelry and bathrooms outfitted in imported marble and gold fixtures. There's too much poverty, IMHO, for there to be as many billionaires as there are.

I agree that people that can afford to, live in excess. The good thing to mansions, yachts, golf clubs, jewelry, cars, ect. is that it employs many people to build these things. I wonder how many people that Gibson, Martin, Taylor, Larrivee, and others employ?
How many of these people might end up in poverty if everyone starts buying Asian sweat shop guitars that are probably built by people living in poverty by our standards? Never feel guilty on how you spend your money. You earned it. You can feel guilty if you earned your money by keeping people in poverty who work for you while you get rich.
I just wish I could find a product or service these wealthy people couldn't live without. That way I could raise my standard of living and buy tons of guitars employing many people. Sharing the wealth. IMHO Striving to have nice things in life is not greed and does not put anyone in poverty.

[Hudman]

Originally posted by AK47 I agree that people that can afford to, live in excess. The good thing to mansions, yachts, golf clubs, jewelry, cars, ect. is that it employs many people to build these things. I wonder how many people that Gibson, Martin, Taylor, Larrivee, and others employ? How many of these people might end up in poverty if everyone starts buying Asian sweat shop guitars that are probably built by people living in poverty by our standards? Never feel guilty on how you spend your money. You earned it. You can feel guilty if you earned your money by keeping people in poverty who work for you while you get rich.

 

 

Good point. One could argue that buying a $300 Chinese made guitar puts American workers in poverty and promotes "slave" labor.

 

Face it, high end instruments cost more because the American worker earns more than $.40 per hour. We also have the EPA, OSHA, health insurance, workers comp. and trial lawyers to deal with in the USA.

 

Higher quality craftmanship comes with the higher labor costs. However, many of the new foreign guitar plants use the latest advance technology. Their CNC milling technology is closing the quality gap at a rapid pace. American companies are investing more money in foreign countries to exploit the low wages. It's happening to most manufacturing sectors across the USA. Free trade is crushing manufacturing.

[Tony Burns]

Muddslide - one though to ponder is to get a blue book and find out what guitars you like new are selling for used -

It's tought to say that a thousand dollar guitar is 10 times bettter than a 100 dollar guitar , it might be three times better - but that three times better is a big difference -

- Im a big believer is buying your instrument used , many of these thousand dollar guitars ar only worth 3-4 hundred on the used market - which is where the real bargains are -- I love nice stuff thats bargain priced.

Another good point to consider is not to buy Instruments that are made in China - I agree with these folks about slave labor and human rights - they might be cheap , but what they do to people is nothing less than slavery .

[Muddslide]

Originally posted by Hudman Good point. One could argue that buying a $300 Chinese made guitar puts American workers in poverty and promotes "slave" labor.

 

 

Eh, I gotta call a little BS on that one.

 

Yes, I believe the conditions of people working in Asian sweatshops is frequently tantamount to slave labor.

 

However, I don't believe the GUILT for that should fall on the shoulders of the average joe who wants to pick up a cheap guitar to learn on or maybe get one for a child to learn on.

 

The problem is--so many manufacturers have moved operations (or large portions of their operations) overseas, or alternately have the parts milled and machined overseas then shipped here for assembly-- POOF! "Made in the USA!"

 

(This outsourcing, like outsourcing in other areas of business by so many other companies-- in order to take advantage of slave labor to increase their profits, has hurt more people economically in this country as well by forcing them out of work.)

 

And it forces the consumer to consider how to maximize their "stuff-for-dollar" leisure money, which is why Wal Mart is at once so repugnant and so wildly popular.

 

I don't think you can look at big corporations who do these types of things and then look at the individual consumer who is often trying to provide for a family, etc., and point the finger at the consumer.

 

There are only a handful of "American Guitar Makers" left in this country, and I don't believe one should feel guilty or somehow less of a musician, etc. for opting for offshore equipment when their dream guitars have been priced out of their market and are difficult to acquire for them.

 

SWEB-- I think you make a point. Has something to do with the scale of purchases. Someone might have $5000 they wouldn't miss to blow on a guitar and it wouldn't hurt them financially in the least, while others may have to srape for weeks to get a $100 cheapie at a pawn shop.

 

On top of that, I'm a player 25 years. I don't claim to be great, but I've been around the block and played hundreds of guitars of all ranks. The differences between some high-end gits and cheapies isn't lost on me. The massive price discrepency is.

[Greg Bogoshian]

I think it would depend if I made my living at it or not. I once played a Wingert cocobolo/adirondack concert and I have to tell you, that was the most perfect instrument I have ever laid my hands or ears on... Spectacular beyond words. Until you play something like that, you just have no point of reference to judge how good an instrument can be or how responsive it can be that it just brings a whole new dimension to your music and how it can actually make you a better musician. The price tag for that guitar you ask? $8500 and worth every penny. Do I have $8500 for an acoustic guitar? No, but if I did or made a living at playing it, I would surely have that guitar. To play it, you would understand...

[Cldplytkmn]

i always dislike anyone telling anyone else what they should do with their money...

i'm glad that a luthier can produce a superior product and be compensated for it...

the price discrepency you mention exists with everything, not just guitars... the more you spend, the more you have to spend per "percentage" point of improvement... and there's always going to be people willing to pay 100% more for a 5% increase in quality.

[Hudman]

Originally posted by Muddslide Eh, I gotta call a little BS on that one. Yes, I believe the conditions of people working in Asian sweatshops is frequently tantamount to slave labor. However, I don't believe the GUILT for that should fall on the shoulders of the average joe who wants to pick up a cheap guitar to learn on or maybe get one for a child to learn on. The problem is--so many manufacturers have moved operations (or large portions of their operations) overseas, or alternately have the parts milled and machined overseas then shipped here for assembly-- POOF! "Made in the USA!" (This outsourcing, like outsourcing in other areas of business by so many other companies-- in order to take advantage of slave labor to increase their profits, has hurt more people economically in this country as well by forcing them out of work.) And it forces the consumer to consider how to maximize their "stuff-for-dollar" leisure money, which is why Wal Mart is at once so repugnant and so wildly popular. I don't think you can look at big corporations who do these types of things and then look at the individual consumer who is often trying to provide for a family, etc., and point the finger at the consumer. There are only a handful of "American Guitar Makers" left in this country, and I don't believe one should feel guilty or somehow less of a musician, etc. for opting for offshore equipment when their dream guitars have been priced out of their market and are difficult to acquire for them.

You called my statement BS and you went on to agree with it. Did I mention guilt? No.

[knockwood]

Originally posted by Cldplytkmn the price discrepency you mention exists with everything, not just guitars... the more you spend, the more you have to spend per "percentage" point of improvement... and there's always going to be people willing to pay 100% more for a 5% increase in quality.

 

 

+1

 

Everything is relative when it comes to the question of worth or value. I have a certain mental "cap" amount I'd be willing to pay for an acoustic, but only because my ears just aren't good enough to hear the differences - assuming they exist - beyond a certain price point (speaking in very general terms here - I don't literally think price by itself equates with quality). Although I have my own limit, I'd stop far short of criticizing someone for spending more. We all have our own priorities. I may spend less on guitars than the next guy, but spend more on premium hookers...

[Terry Allan Hall]

Originally posted by Muddslide My real problem is people who own three mansions, 2 yachts, $50,000 worth of titanium golf clubs, gawdy jewelry and bathrooms outfitted in imported marble and gold fixtures. There's too much poverty, IMHO, for there to be as many billionaires as there are.

Must agree...how anyone needs more than one house (mansion or otherwise) eludes me...what a hassle to have to take EVERYTHING I own back and forth!...to me, it makes much more sense to find a spot you REALLY like and build your life there (in my case, it's an extremely rural "not-quite-a-town-just-yet" that doesn't even officially have a name at the moment in N. Texas. ).

Yachts? Give me a sailboat (please!)...I'm sure I could be just as ostentatious on a nice triple master...
and I'd manage to have a lot more fun!

$50,000 worth of titanium golf clubs? (this is where I'll probably get flamed) What's the point of wandering around and hitting a little ball until it eventually goes into a hole in the ground? And why spend more than $20 to do so?

I won't mention "gaudy jewelry" only because I do wear a lot of silver-and-turquoise...I've probably got upwards of $600 invested over the last 20 years.

And my bathrooms (both of them) have classic porcelain fixtures from Home Depot.

OTOH, I do have a few upper-$ guitars and feel no shame, as they are the tools of my trade.





















































Oh, yeah, one more thing: Eat the rich!

[Muddslide]

Originally posted by Hudman You called my statement BS and you went on to agree with it. Did I mention guilt? No.

Well, you essentially stated that a person buying a Chinese instrument was supporting slave labor and hurting American workers.

I'm just saying, before making that conclusion, look at the companies who have made decisions to put people in this country out of work and move operations overseas to exploit cheap labor.

Is that better or worse than an individual opting for an Asian instrument if that's what they can afford?

My original post also said nothing of guilt and in fact I later clearly stated that I DON'T think a person should feel guilty about buying a $3000-$10,000 guitar if that's what they want and can afford without causing their kids to go hungry or whatever.

I was really just curious as to people's opinions about really high-end manufactured guitars and cheapies, the relative benefits of each, what people were happier with (i.e. some people wouldn't want to own a guitar that didn't have Martin or Gibson on the headstock, while that is immaterial to others, etc.)

I didn't mean to start a big moral issue or an argument! I wanna be friends on here!

I may just not be eloquent enough to get my point across (assuming I ever had a point)-- but I'm NOT trying to call out anyone as a greedy asshole for buying an expensive guitar.

I truly am sorry if I offended anyone. I was trying to convey a personal feeling, not extrapolate that out to the way I think everyone should live or behave.

[knockwood]

Originally posted by Muddslide Well, you essentially stated that a person buying a Chinese instrument was supporting slave labor and hurting American workers.

 

 

He didn't say that. He said "One could argue" that. Hud didn't say this was his argument. The man gushes eternally about his Chinese-built Masterbilt. He's just looking at the issue from both sides.

[Queequeg]

Originally posted by Cldplytkmn i always dislike anyone telling anyone else what they should do with their money....

 

+1

People buy different instruments for different reasons. Do I think I could get a good sounding Asian guitar? Sure.

I am not rich by any stretch, but now that I am single (again) and my kids are grown, I do spend a disproportionate amount of my disposable income on guitars. I buy American guitars, (and Canadian Larrivees) almost exclusively, and only occasionally will I purchase Asian guitars (an Eastman archtop and a Avante baritone). Its a big part of my assets, part of what my kids will inherit. I think that by-and-large, the American guitars are the most collectible and will appreciate in value more than Asian imports, and for that reason it is possible that they may become a better investment for me. What you do is, well, up to you.

[Whalebot]

Originally posted by knockwood Chinese-built Masterbilt.

Commie.

[Hudman]

Originally posted by Whalebot Commie.

I'm a broke ass Commie. Otherwise, I would have a house filled with Gibsons, Larrivees, Martins and Taylors.



Seriously, I hate buying guitar gear built in countries other than the US. Unfortunately, the US companies refuse to build affordable guitars in the US. They could do it, but they chose to go with the insanely large profit margins they get from using cheap labor in China and other 3rd world countries. I was told that it cost apprx. $40.00 to build a Chinese Epiphone Les Paul that Gibson sells for $499.00. It's hard not to blame the guitar companies for exploiting the cheap labor (and avoid dealing with OSHA, the EPA, health insurance, unemployment insurance, state tax, federal tax and trial lawyers). I blame our govenment for signing bad trade agreements.