Spruce Top / Rosewood back and 12string Acoustics

[priapus]

I was considering gettting a 12string Beedlove with a concert body: rosewood back and sides and spruce top. I played a dread breedlove 6 string of rosewood back and spruce top, and it was too dark for my taste. Would a 12string with a slightly smaller concert body sound better.

 

What are optimal wood choices in a 12string for concert, dread and jumbos?

[Freeman Keller]

My feeling is that rosewood 12 strings tend to be very complex - when you add all the octaves it can get rather overwhelming (I own one). Many of the best 12's that I've played have been 'hog - if it is good enough for Leo ....

 

I also don't like dreadnaught 12's (I own one...) they are really too bassy, especially when tuned down. Mamy people think that Jumbo is the right size for a 12, but the smaller GA's from taylor are pretty sweet. You might compare a x55 (Jumbo) and x54 (GA) and if you can find one, x50 (dread).

 

But, I love the look of rose and when I decided to build a new 12 I chose rosewood just for the look. It will be a smaller deeper body to try to get a little more balance over my big old Martin dread - and the whole experiment might fail miserably.

[Bert]

Freeman, I sometimes wondered about Leo's ear. You remember that in the old days the only thing that Leo would play was a Bozo. Big, heavy, and squarish dreadnaught shape with inlay galore. I think that he might have gone conservative in his old age (Leo's). He probably uses hog now because of the lack of boominess and sustain. He does throw out a lot of notes in a short time. Sustain would muddy his quick notes. As far as overall sound and performance I am quite impressed with my 4 year old Rainsong WS3000. Great guitar for the elements....just put some saran wrap over the electronics when you're playing in the rain. I do have a custom rosewood dred 12 that Augustino LoPrinzi built me in the 80's......bd

[Freeman Keller]

yeah, who knows what Leo hears? A bazillion years ago I played a Bozo Podunanvac 12 string in Pioneer Music in Portland - you are right about all the shell. I don't remember much about it except that it was big and glittery. When I saw him in the early 70's he brought at least four guitars on stage - the last time I saw him he only had the 6 and the 12 (you know, that could be an album title....)

 

If you have seen the dvd "Home and Away" there is a priceless scene where Leo goings into his basement "where bad guitars go". He takes out some old git that he said a friend made into a 12 string baritone - big long neck that wouldn't fit into a normal case so he cut the end off and made a 10 string out of it. It had a hole kicked in the side covered with duct tape.

 

The Leo box set shows him playing a Martin dread - it is a paddle head so it must be a D12-28 like mine. I think that was when he was still using fingerpicks, must be why mine doesn't sound like him (you think?). I do play some Leo songs on it - Machine Gun, Crow River and so forth.

 

I've always coveted the LKSM, which ironically has more scalloping to the braces than a 555 - I've studied some pics of the insides when I started thinking about how to brace mine.

 

And back to the thread, I don't know anything about Breedlove 12's

[Jessz1]

Freeman.... what Leo Kottke boxed set are you referring to?

 

I agree with the rosewood being a little to complex. My friend has an old Bozo 12. One of the best/wierdest sounding 12's I have heard. Shiney....

[Freeman Keller]

 

Originally posted by Jessz1 Freeman.... what Leo Kottke boxed set are you referring to? I agree with the rosewood being a little to complex. My friend has an old Bozo 12. One of the best/wierdest sounding 12's I have heard. Shiney....

 

 

A 2 cd anthology (sp). It has kind of a muted greenish-grey cover with Leo playing a martin 12. I think a really good cross section of his best songs over the years, and the liner notes are pretty cool description of tunings and some of the events around the songs (if you've been to a Kottke concert you can almost hear him describing writing "Vaseline Machine Gun" after "defending" a nuclear sub against a peace demonstration).

[Jessz1]

Thanks FK, I will keep my eyes open for that one.

[priapus]

Back to my question.

 

I talked to a guy a local music shop who told me that rosewood back/sides go good with smaller concert size, but not with a jumbo and that if I got a jumbo, I shouldn't go with rosewood but with maple or some more dense. I don't know about these things, so any help would be...uh...helpful.

[Freeman Keller]

The best thing is to play them and decide for yourself. Every maple twelve I've every played or heard (and they were all jumbo Guilds) were really jangly - if that is the sound you want then go for it (sounds too much like Mr Tamborine Man for me). Every rosewood 12 that I've played (Martins, some Taylors, an old Bozo, in both dread and jumbos) have been very complex sounding - rich, full, mellow. Almost too much. My dread Martin is that way (and nearly the same sound box volume as a jumbo). The few mahogany 12's that I've played (LKSM, D12-20, J12-17, 355 (which is sorta a 'hog,) and some Guild (don't know the model)) seemed to be the cleanest sounding - better separation between the strings in each course.

 

I tune my D12-18 to D and the Kottke was tuned to C# so that screws everything up too - maybe with phat strings a tuned down maple would loose the jangle - but I've never tried it.

 

If I were to rank the 12 strings that I've played in MY order of preference they would probably be the LKSM, D12-20 (I wish I had bought that one), T355 (one of the best bang for the buck 12's on the market), the old Bozo (again, I could have bought that one), and my D12-28 after having it setup and hot rodded. When you look at the choices there are both rose and hog, and both jumbos and dreads. Go figure...

 

Last thing that I'll add is that I've only played one Breedlove in my whole life - I don't know the model but I think it was about $5K used. It was rose (might have even been Braz) with some of the most wonderful wood inlay - a really stunning guitar. I really have no idea how their unique top bracing, use of the JLD, pinless bridge, etc would work on a twelve - guess you just gotta try 'em.

[Freeman Keller]

Priapus, when people ask questions about 12 strings I usually send them to the Cafe'. Even tho it is on the Martin forum it isn't necessarily Martin specific. You might want to lurk, read, and ask your questions here

 

12 String Cafe'

 

The reason I keep suggesting trying various Taylor models is that they make every wood and body combination that you talk about - dread, jumbo, and GA. Of course finding them to try might be a bit of a problem.