Acoustic vs Electric Acoustic

[LesaB]

First time here. Looks like a great site. I don't know a lot about guitars and need some help. My 12 year old daughter has been playing an acoustic Taylor for a couple of years and it is time to upgrade. We are looking at a Larrivee LV-03RE. From glancing through the posts I see a lot of Larrivee fans. We are going against the guidance of her teacher and getting the acoustic electric. Teacher is a purist and thinks the guitar should be acoustic only. The cut away is also a no, no. Does the pickup and the cut away style detract from the acoustic sound when not plugged in? If we do stick with acoustic only, I can get a Gibson J-45R Vine acoustic for a very good price but it seems to me that the Larrivee is a better guitar. Anybody have an opinion on this?

 

What type of amp would you suggest to go with the LV-03RE? I'm not looking for anything stage worthy. Just something to plug into so she learn how to vary the sound. Does she need anything else if she want to amp this guitar?

[Brett Valentine]

Well, "Acoustic Electrics" that I've seen seem to be a bit of a compromise between the ultimate acoustic and a vehicle for the electronics with a shallower body and an "electric guitar" neck (granted, not all of them). Also, really good, sensitive solid wood acoustic tops really want to vibrate and don't take much to get going. . . which can cause a feedback problem. One of the best sounding plugged in acoustics I heard was a Takamine. It was full sounding and resisted feedback very well. Acoustically though, the sound hardly made it out past the soundhole and the strings. It sounds like this is what your daughter's teacher was refering to.

 

The Larrivee is a full sized acoustic guitar made out of solid wood, and it seems that their priority is making a great sounding acoustic guitar first. The big thing is that there is a hole cut in the side of the guitar, and that does go against some sensibilities (I don't really like the built in electronics "barn door" on acoustics myself). I've played a few L-03's both with and without electronics and they all sounded great to my ears. Now, Larrivees don't sound like Martins, and they are a little different sounding than Taylors as well, so keep that in mind. Go for what sounds good/plays good.

 

As for the cutaways, all my current acoustics are cutaway because I utilize those upper frets. The L shape is a beautiful guitar, and I hope to get one eventually (I have a C-09 with an LR Baggs system installed aftermarket). If I didn't need the cutaway, I probably wouldn't buy one (though the C series cutaway just looked so nice).

 

Is that any help?

 

Happy hunting,

Brett

[Michael Martin]

Welcome! There are so many types of A/E guitars--not just brands--and some are optimized for amplification (these are usually not the best-sounding guitars for unplugged play) while others are essentially "normal" acoustic guitars that have a completely unobtrusive pickup. The latter type have full-depth bodies, no hole cut in the side, no tone controls, etc. You do your tone fiddling on the amp or pre-amp.

 

As for cutaways? people who play way up the neck find them useful. I don't know that they make lots of difference tonally. But there must be some difference.

 

You will hear this from many of us: no substitute for going into shops and playing these various types. Sounds like you're going for a high-end instrument, so it really pays to play. Good luck

[kwakatak]

Much as I like the plain old L-03 I think the LV-03RE is a great guitar, but as a guitar to take lessons on I don't know. It sounds like she wants to have something to perform with once she gets the nerve up, though. If so I think it's a good choice.

 

Tonewise I don't notice much volume loss between the cutaway and non-cutaway model, though I like the non-cutaway slightly better. Still, the cutaway does have practical purposes. I find it easy to do barre chords all the way up to the 14th fret and doing lead licks seems to be as easy for me as if I were playing my Strat.

 

As for the electronics and amp choice, sorry I can't offer any advice. I'm just a couch player though I'd be curious to hear what's good as well.

[nip]

You seem stuck in the same thinking as I was. After advice here I started looking for a pure acoustic, and then looking for mounting a miking system.

 

Note that the common type of electronics with preamp built into the guitar it's very heavy compared to the pure wooden thing.

 

And the type of undersaddle transducers that are most common in these cases, sound dreadful in my ears.

 

So get a good acoustic, and when you need it look for assembling a miking into the guitar. And you could look for something that really brings out the best sound from the wood. And the preamp can very well be external and not cut up the guitar for this.

[kwakatak]

 

Originally posted by nip You seem stuck in the same thinking as I was. After advice here I started looking for a pure acoustic, and then looking for mounting a miking system. Note that the common type of electronics with preamp built into the guitar it's very heavy compared to the pure wooden thing. And the type of undersaddle transducers that are most common in these cases, sound dreadful in my ears. So get a good acoustic, and when you need it look for assembling a miking into the guitar. And you could look for something that really brings out the best sound from the wood. And the preamp can very well be external and not cut up the guitar for this.

 

 

Re: the aftermarket option. I have a 2006 Larriv

[tclune]

 

Originally posted by nip You seem stuck in the same thinking as I was. After advice here I started looking for a pure acoustic, and then looking for mounting a miking system. ... the type of undersaddle transducers that are most common in these cases, sound dreadful in my ears. So get a good acoustic, and when you need it look for assembling a miking into the guitar. And you could look for something that really brings out the best sound from the wood. And the preamp can very well be external and not cut up the guitar for this.

 

 

When my son got a Larrivee, we got it without electronics and added a UST afterwards. The UST is completely passive and does not affect the sound at all (the plug forms a strap button on the butt plate). For optimal sound quality, one would need to EQ on a pre-amp close to the plug, My son has such a device, but never uses it.

 

For the most part, he plays the guitar as a straight acoustic, without amplification. When he wants to amplify but maintain the lovely tonal quality of the Larrivee, he mics the guitar with standard performing mics that are run off the house mains. When he is playing an acoustic as part of a band, he just plugs the UST directly into his combo amp or the mains. The tone of the Larrivee wood is not really going to be what comes through in that context, and that's not what the performance is about in that case.

 

In just about any case, those internal mics -- the condenser-plus-piezo stereo type things are apparently a complete PITA, though. They can feed back readily and typically have worse sound than a simple x/y micing of the guitar with run-of-the-mill cardiod condensers.

 

If you use any external mics, try moving where the mics point to. The variation in sound of the instrument just by changing the angle or location of the mic relative to the guitar should convince you that an internal mic is problematic. If you try mic'ing the sound hole -- which is where the internal mics point -- this will ALWAYS be the worst choice, BTW. The only thing that can make that work is to EQ the Hell out of the way-too-bassy output. My personal belief is that this approach is always a mistake. The other options have a place -- you just need to decide why you are interested in having the guitar amplified and proceed accordingly.

 

ETA: if you decide to get a UST, have it professionally installed by a top-notch luthier. They are more tricky than you'd think to install. If you do a less-than perfect job, the strings will have different volumes because of small variations in how firmly they are seated against the saddle.

 

I should also add: if you haven't mic'ed a guitar before, you should place the mic at least one foot and not more than two feet away from the guitar. Good places to point for a stereo configuration are bridge and neck, straight on. For an x/y stereo, try the mics up near the neck, with one pointing toward the sound hole and the other toward the finger board.

 

For a single mic, try placing it by the neck, possibly pointing slightly toward the sound hole. Cardiod mics have different sensitivities to frequency, based on the off-axis angle and proximity. So they can be a bit tricky for an inexperienced performer to work with. If the room acoustics are amenable, an omni mic is a lot easier for the performer to work with, as they lack both off-axis and proximity effects. However, the "gotcha" with an omni is that it will pick up room noise more. If the performer is not too close to the audience (or the walls for reflection, etc), you can get an audio envelop that lacks coloration as the performer twists or turns. Alternatively, you can try area mic'ing, but that is somewhat harder to get the right sound from the guitar than with close mic'ing.

 

[LesaB]

Thanks to you all for your input! I hope to make a purchase this week.

[whit townsend]

Taylor T5 !

[Preacher Will]

I happen to be from the "buy an acoustic instrument and install your own electronics" school of thought.

 

Some general observations:

 

1) Cut-aways do affect the tone of the guitar. They have to. Cut a chunk out of the soundboard and you change the sound board's resonance. However, the change is miniscule and should not deter you from choosing a cut-away.

 

2) Cut-aways do give you better access to the upper frets. This is unimportant in some genres (e.g. bluegrass). In others, it can compromise your ability to expand your repertoire.

 

3) There are essentially three kinds of pickups that can be installed in acoustic guitars so that they can be electronically amplified:

 

a) Under-Saddle-Transducers: A piezo-electric film that is placed under the saddle and which generates electrical impulses from the vibrations of the string on the saddle. UST's have the advantage of being the least prone to feedback issues. They are better installed by a tech as some tweaking of the saddle will be required.

 

b) Sound-Board-Transducers: Typically a piezo-elecrtric film that is attached to a coin-sized plate which is then mounted on the sound board, inside the guitar, under the bridge. SBT's have the advantage of being more "natural" sounding than UST's but are more prone to feedback issues. Can be easily user installed but require precise placement for best results.

 

c) On-Board-Microphones: Usually small mics that are used alone or in concert with USTs and SBTs. Best used when the "natural" sound of the instrument is desired, OBMs are often fussy to use and can be very prone to feedback.

 

All of the above require a preamp of some sort to amplify the signal before it is sent to the PA/amp. Simple preamps are available as an endpin jack which offer nothing more than a boost to the signal from the pickup. Others come as small stand alone boxes that offer many options for tweaking the signal before it goes out to the amp. For example the Baggs Para-Acoustic D.I. (PADI)

 

For my use, a non-cut-away Taylor with Baggs I-Beam (a sound-board-transducer system) and a Baggs PADI have provided a good compromise between natural sound and feedback resistance, even on loud stages.

[BigRed51]

 

Originally posted by LesaB Does the pickup and the cut away style detract from the acoustic sound when not plugged in? If we do stick with acoustic only, I can get a Gibson J-45R Vine acoustic for a very good price but it seems to me that the Larrivee is a better guitar. Anybody have an opinion on this?

 

 

It is my experience that both the cutaway and installed electronics take away from the acoustic capabilities of a guitar. The cutaway affects both the tone and projection, while the electronics primarily affect the projection, but to a much lesser extent than the cutaway.

 

Larrivee guitars are generally very nice looking, and are more than adequate for fingerstyle playing. The body style may also be a little more conducive to a girl her age. IMO, the Gibson J-45R will be much more versatile, and give her more options as her musical tastes and style evolve. I also believe that since Gibson moved their manufacturing to Montana, they are building the most consistently good guitars across the entire product line of any of the major manufacturers, and the J-45 series is one of their flagship models.

[Joe Vocht]

I'm surprised no one has talked about the cordoba gipsy king flamenco guitar with a cutaway and a fishman pro blend pickup and microphone combination. The guitar plays fantastically well, has a 2" depth of flamed maple with a flamed maple back, a european spruce top, impeccable workmanship and it sounds pretty good acoustically (for a small room or accompaniment with vocals) Electrically its a lot of fun because it can get allmost any kind of sound and has many feedback controls along with an ebony fingerboard, onboard eq, notch filter, pickup blender e.g. some pickup some microphone. I recently won the guitar from e-bay and its the best 639.00 I ever spent!!!