Is it hard for a luthier to intonate a vintage guitar?

[codecontra]

My "new" 1973 Guild D-55 sounds great for open chords and up the first 5-9 frets or so, but once you get uo toward the 10-12th fret and beyond the tuning is kind of whacked. It seems like mainly the low E is out of whack with the other strings so I am assuming the intonation is off.

 

So, can a luthier fix this and what is entailed?

[bjorn-fjord]

It can likely be made better than it is now but guitars, by their very nature, are never going to be in perfect tune all over the fretboard. There is a lot of "splitting the difference" in guitar making.

 

A couple of questions about your guitar.

How high is the action at the 12th fret?

If you play a natural harmonic at the 12th fret and then fret the string at the 12th fret is it the same note?

 

If the action is high, the guitar will play "sharper" the higher up the fretboard you play.

If the action at the 12th fret is 1/8th of an inch or less we should look elsewhere for the problem.

The only other thing that can be done to improve the intonation without performing major surgery is to re-shape the saddle. The saddle can be shaped so that the string leaves the saddle at the front, middle, or back, of the saddle itself. Believe it or not, a couple millimeters (sorry to mix SAE and Metric!) can make a huge difference. Whoa sorry, baby emergency, gotta go.

[DonK]

Well, it's all about scale length (or, more properly geometry - think of the the area formed by the strings, fretboard, nut and bridge as a long, attenuated triangle). IIRC, most Guilds are either 25.6" or 25.5". No matter, there are a number of things that could cause intonation to be off, i.e., things that change the appropriate scale length for a given string. If the neck is bowed, it will slightly change the scale length (it will shorten it). If the nut or saddle slots are worn for a particular string, it can cause the intonation to be off (the scale will change ever so slightly). Last, and probably most likely, the bridge area of an acoustic will "belly" upward with age as a result of prolonged string tension, again shortening the scale length. A good luthier can diagnose the problem and make the correct fix for whatever has changed, but be careful: the "tech" at a typical guitar store (GC comes to mind) may be someone who lacks the skill to work on acoustic guitars. Electrics are a lot easier to adjust.

 

Also, guitars use a tempered tuning, so no matter what you do, it involves tuning compromises at different points along the fretboard.

[DonK]

bjorn beat me to it; listen to him, he's a luthier!

[codecontra]

 

It can likely be made better than it is now but guitars, by their very nature, are never going to be in perfect tune all over the fretboard. There is a lot of "splitting the difference" in guitar making. A couple of questions about your guitar. How high is the action at the 12th fret? If you play a natural harmonic at the 12th fret and then fret the string at the 12th fret is it the same note? If the action is high, the guitar will play "sharper" the higher up the fretboard you play. If the action at the 12th fret is 1/8th of an inch or less we should look elsewhere for the problem. The only other thing that can be done to improve the intonation without performing major surgery is to re-shape the saddle. The saddle can be shaped so that the string leaves the saddle at the front, middle, or back, of the saddle itself. Believe it or not, a couple millimeters (sorry to mix SAE and Metric!) can make a huge difference. Whoa sorry, baby emergency, gotta go.

 

 

 

 

12th fret action measures: 4/32 on low E string.

 

If you play a natural harmonic at the 12th fret and then fret the string at the 12th fret is it the same note? the harmonic is a bit flat compared to the fretted E using a tuner.

 

The tuning prob is definitely noticable, not just a minor difference. I also have an Ovation Legend that has none of these problems.

[Freeman Keller]

Bjorn, should he be measuring the scale length to make sure the saddle is truely in the right place? I remember those 70's Martins where they are an 1/8 or so off. It is my understanding that is pretty easy to fill the slot and route a new one.

 

Code, what I'm talking about is that the distance from the nut to the saddle should be two times the distance to the 12th fret plus "a little". The "little" I used is about 5/64 on the high E and 15/64 on the low(Bjorn might have better numbers). This puts the center of the saddle at about the right place, then individual strings (like the B) can be further compensated. If it is pretty much in the right spot, then carry on with harmonic/fretted test and see how sharp the fretted note is (my little Korg tuner will tell me how many cents its is sharp - the harmonic should be in tune).

[codecontra]

Bjorn, should he be measuring the scale length to make sure the saddle is truely in the right place? I remember those 70's Martins where they are an 1/8 or so off. It is my understanding that is pretty easy to fill the slot and route a new one. Code, what I'm talking about is that the distance from the nut to the saddle should be two times the distance to the 12th fret plus "a little". The "little" I used is about 5/64 on the high E and 15/64 on the low(Bjorn might have better numbers). This puts the center of the saddle at about the right place, then individual strings (like the B) can be further compensated. If it is pretty much in the right spot, then carry on with harmonic/fretted test and see how sharp the fretted note is (my little Korg tuner will tell me how many cents its is sharp - the harmonic should be in tune).

 

 

OK, I will have to find a measuring tape and check it out.

 

Anyone want to buy a 1973 Guild D-55 ?

[bjorn-fjord]

12th fret action measures: 4/32 on low E string. If you play a natural harmonic at the 12th fret and then fret the string at the 12th fret is it the same note? the harmonic is a bit flat compared to the fretted E using a tuner. The tuning prob is definitely noticable, not just a minor difference. I also have an Ovation Legend that has none of these problems.

 

Hmmm. Ok, your action is on the upper end of normal. You may be able to improve the intonation somewhat by lowering the action slightly but there are other things that need to be assessed before you go take this course of action. Check out Freeman Keller's post, "Is my guitar sick?". He goes into detail about neck relief and such.

Basically, if the fretted note is sharper than the harmonic it means that the distance from the 12th fret to the point at which the string leaves the saddle is too short. A few things could cause this. The fret could be in the wrong spot (believe me, it happens). The bridge could be installed slightly short of where it should be (this happens too). Or the saddle could require a tweaking so that the string launches off nearest the rear of its surface(best case scenario).

What I'm getting at is it's hard to recommend further action without seeing the guitar. If I had your instrument in my shop I would check the neck relief to see if I could get away with lowering the action and I would use a fret-scale to determine where the adjustment needed to be made.

At this point I would have to suggest that you find a reputable tech in your area.

Good luck.

[bjorn-fjord]

 

Bjorn, should he be measuring the scale length to make sure the saddle is truely in the right place? I remember those 70's Martins where they are an 1/8 or so off. It is my understanding that is pretty easy to fill the slot and route a new one. Code, what I'm talking about is that the distance from the nut to the saddle should be two times the distance to the 12th fret plus "a little". The "little" I used is about 5/64 on the high E and 15/64 on the low(Bjorn might have better numbers). This puts the center of the saddle at about the right place, then individual strings (like the B) can be further compensated. If it is pretty much in the right spot, then carry on with harmonic/fretted test and see how sharp the fretted note is (my little Korg tuner will tell me how many cents its is sharp - the harmonic should be in tune).

 

 

Definitely good advice. I was getting there but you put it more succinctly.

[codecontra]

well, there is a reputable place a couple towns over that specializes in vintage acoustics. I will bring it there and have a pro look at it.

 

Then, I think I am going to throw it on ebay and grab a new Martin. The whole vintage guitar scene is just not for me. I gave it a shot.

 

I just wish I could afford one of those Gerry Tolman/CSN Martin guitars. OMG that guitar is beautiful !!!!

 

THANK YOU everyone for the advice !!

[Tony Burns]

Codecontra - i have a 1971 D-55 , which had a simalar problem - mine has jumbo frets ( not sure if they changed to that or it came with them ) at some earlier date - more than likely before i ever bought it back in 1976 , I think they were not domed properly , as well as its tonation being off -- i had my luthier ( Jim Holler ) reset the tonation - i had him first replace the plastic in the bridge as well as the top nut with Bone , set the tonation , and re faced the frets , as well as lower the action -- It is one of the best sounding guitars that i own , it was good before but something was a little off - which kept it in in a case alot ( it looks new and its a '71 )

 

The short answer is yes a qualitfied luthier will bring new life to your Guild , and by the way --- dont ever sell that guitar , their getting harder to find everyday and believe me when i say this - you wont find a '70's Martin that will sound half as good .! Mine has a Brazilian rosewood Bridge , im betting yours does too !!

[codecontra]

 

Codecontra - i have a 1971 D-55 , which had a simalar problem - mine has jumbo frets ( not sure if they changed to that or it came with them ) at some earlier date - more than likely before i ever bought it back in 1976 , I think they were not domed properly , as well as its tonation being off -- i had my luthier ( Jim Holler ) reset the tonation - i had him first replace the plastic in the bridge as well as the top nut with Bone , set the tonation , and re faced the frets , as well as lower the action -- It is one of the best sounding guitars that i own , it was good before but something was a little off - which kept it in in a case alot ( it looks new and its a '71 ) The short answer is yes a qualitfied luthier will bring new life to your Guild , and by the way --- dont ever sell that guitar , their getting harder to find everyday and believe me when i say this - you wont find a '70's Martin that will sound half as good .! Mine has a Brazilian rosewood Bridge , im betting yours does too !!

 

 

 

I hear you. It is a nice guitar. I bought it because I have never owned a vintage guitar and I came across this one. I mean, it is cool owning a guitar that is 35 years old and thinking about all the music that has been played through it over the years, where it has been, etc. This particular guitar was owned by Aaron Lewis (Staind lead singer) prior to me so it has a pretty cool history.

 

BUT, I just don't think that it stacks up to a brand new high end acoustic. For the money, I can buy a brandy new Martin. I don't know. There are arguments for both sides, maybe I have to put a little more thought into it before I pull the trigger.

[Tony Burns]

 

I hear you. It is a nice guitar. I bought it because I have never owned a vintage guitar and I came across this one. I mean, it is cool owning a guitar that is 35 years old and thinking about all the music that has been played through it over the years, where it has been, etc. This particular guitar was owned by Aaron Lewis (Staind lead singer) prior to me so it has a pretty cool history. BUT, I just don't think that it stacks up to a brand new high end acoustic. For the money, I can buy a brandy new Martin. I don't know. There are arguments for both sides, maybe I have to put a little more thought into it before I pull the trigger.

 

 

 

You might want to have your luthier set it up right , before you make that decision - I wouldnt judge it before you give it a chance ( remember your D-55 was the top of the food chain - when it was made - it is a pro-guitar ) ,, besides that will also be a selling point for the instrument if you latter ( God forbid ) want to find a new home for it - Guild really made better guitars back then, than that Fender version does now - their tanks as well as having a bright sound to them - you might also want to think setting it up for custom PB lights ( i use Dadarrio PB ex-lights on mine - customs will make it a little louder ) id have it set up for a specific string and stay with that , by changing string size as well as brand ( seriously ) can change your tonation , another though is that older strings or strings that have gone threw the mill will also not have acurate tonation --

[codecontra]

You might want to have your luthier set it up right , before you make that decision - I wouldnt judge it before you give it a chance ( remember your D-55 was the top of the food chain - when it was made - it is a pro-guitar ) ,, besides that will also be a selling point for the instrument if you latter ( God forbid ) want to find a new home for it - Guild really made better guitars back then, than that Fender version does now - their tanks as well as having a bright sound to them - you might also want to think setting it up for custom PB lights ( i use Dadarrio PB ex-lights on mine - customs will make it a little louder ) id have it set up for a specific string and stay with that , by changing string size as well as brand ( seriously ) can change your tonation , another though is that older strings or strings that have gone threw the mill will also not have acurate tonation --

 

OK, man. I will follow your advice and have it set up as suggested. I may also throw a bone nut on it as well. Thanks for the advice !!