Spent the day at GC - made a few discoveries !!!

[Tony Burns]

Yestersday i played hook'y from work ( selt employed- my boss said OK ) and i really just wanted to visit larger music stores have some fun and see some of these guitars some of you younger folks are bragging about - most of my guitars i had for over thirty years ( other than a Martin and a Lucida classical i bought last year ) - i had a few eye opening experiences- alot of the so called upper end guitars , especially the Martins were extremely disapointing - using uneven top wood and second grade rosewood on the back and sides , makes me think their just hammering them out as fast as they can with little reguard for their quality - another old timer poped in ( a member on the UMF - who i know ) and he mentioned the same thing - they dont make them like they use to , uneven grains , wide-narrow-wide - tops decent makers wouldnt use twenty years ago -- he mentioned this about Taylors also , said they look like their making them as fast as they can , and their quality is going down the tubes .. I was very impressed by the Epi-mastertones as well as the Parkwood guitars i saw their , they both sounded fantastic for the little price they were asking ---about a quarter of the Martins or Taylors . i also looked at Gibson, really loved a advanced jumbo they had-- sounds better than any gibson i ever played , but the wood on that as well had knots , etc. which i feel is second rate -- Im starting to believe that these companies are worried about their prices compared to foreign makers and are cutting corners to keep their prices down , but at the same time ar lowering their quality - which could mean their demise -- ive been playing for over 35 years and i know quality , The foreign made guitars are a better value - and their sound is remarkable for the money - why buy a Martin , Taylor or a Gibson -- im a buy American guy but I demand better quality , or i dont buy .

[Dave W.]

One of the few perks to being self-employed.

 

I swear the fit and finish on my $600 Alvarez classical is better than on my OM-21. The Martin sounds great, and I got it new for $1300, no tax or shipping, though I did have to drive 2 hours to pick it up. Still, if I was to replace it now I would take a serious look at the Guild GAD's and Epi Masterbuilts, and probably the Larrie's too.

[Cripes]

 

Yestersday i played hook'y from work ( selt employed- my boss said OK ) and i really just wanted to visit larger music stores have some fun and see some of these guitars some of you younger folks are bragging about - most of my guitars i had for over thirty years ( other than a Martin and a Lucida classical i bought last year ) - i had a few eye opening experiences- alot of the so called upper end guitars , especially the Martins were extremely disapointing - using uneven top wood and second grade rosewood on the back and sides , makes me think their just hammering them out as fast as they can with little reguard for their quality - another old timer poped in ( a member on the UMF - who i know ) and he mentioned the same thing - they dont make them like they use to , uneven grains , wide-narrow-wide - tops decent makers wouldnt use twenty years ago -- he mentioned this about Taylors also , said they look like their making them as fast as they can , and their quality is going down the tubes .. I was very impressed by the Epi-mastertones as well as the Parkwood guitars i saw their , they both sounded fantastic for the little price they were asking ---about a quarter of the Martins or Taylors . i also looked at Gibson, really loved a advanced jumbo they had-- sounds better than any gibson i ever played , but the wood on that as well had knots , etc. which i feel is second rate -- Im starting to believe that these companies are worried about their prices compared to foreign makers and are cutting corners to keep their prices down , but at the same time ar lowering their quality - which could mean their demise -- ive been playing for over 35 years and i know quality , The foreign made guitars are a better value - and their sound is remarkable for the money - why buy a Martin , Taylor or a Gibson -- im a buy American guy but I demand better quality , or i dont buy .

 

 

Good post. This is the reason I picked up a Breedlove Custom Shop guitar. It is comparable to the mid-higher end makes you mentioned in price but otherwise looks down on them. Go back a few years and that wasn't the case. I wouldn't blanket my opinion across all models produced by Martin, Taylor, etc., but in my price range I feel safe doing so. That would include sound as well as quality of materials and build.

[guitarhound]

Tony Burns.....U da man! I couldn't agree with you more. I'm finding the companies you mentioned...Martin,Taylor,Gibson have seemed to be taking a slide in quality. I mean Martin is an embarassment with all the low end crap and Felix the cat,plastic cowboy guitars,etc not too mention the overdone artist series. Their britches are way too big and crap is leakin all over the guitar landscape. Same thing with Taylor, man, have they declined recently all the time hyping themselves. Time for a reality check. I still like Gibson though. They've always been inconsistent but occasionaly can uncork some great guitars. I think the Sheryl Crow Country Western is one of the best guitars period in the last 5-10 years and it's got nothing to do with star worship or hot-chick rocker. I don't even like her music much these past few years but that guitar is a winner. Gibson does have some neck issues though and I've seen plenty of problems with twisting and tongue rise. They are aware of it too cause I've spoken to them about it. Dealers like GC don't know how to properly humidify and if you want to see the worst of the worst check out the stock of acoustics in the Robinson TWP. mall near the Pittsburgh Int. Airport. Humidified problems galore. Looks like they dried them out first then tried to compensate with over-humidification and what a sorry mess. Cracked tops,fret sprout hanging over the edge of the fingerboards....worst I've ever seen. Thousands of dollars of inventory seriously damaged and in need of repair. Who buys this stuff except the unknowing. SAD,SAD,SAD

 

Collings is the true American standard of excellence but comes with a hefty price. Not sure if they have anything under 3K these days but I say they are well worth it. I agree about the import stuff too. I reluctantly bought a China made Guild GAD 30 around $500 because it was way better than anything Martin or Taylor had at 2 or 3 times the price.

[Marko]

Great posts, and I love reading here (not posting much) but,

 

maybe because my eyes aren't that great (all bugged out now),

 

I often wish you guys would use more

 

 

 

 

paragraphs.

[Dan Hall]

Flashback 40 years......Outside music store......

Same conversation, same conclusion. Players? Mommas and Poppas of the current crop of Martin, Gibson, Guild bashers.

 

Flashforward 40 years checking guitar bluebook priceguides, late '60s Martin, Gibson, Guild guitars extend double digit year after year increase in sales prices. Highly sought after and not staying on Vintage dealers hooks for long.

 

Conclusion. Who knows? Play lot's of guitars and pick one you like.

 

Just a personal observation. Please don't get sore. I've heard all this for decades. I've played/owned '50s/'60s Martins and Gibsons. The current Gibsons are far Better. The current Martin rosewoods sound different because Brazil is no longer available. The '70s Martins can't possibly be your reference point for "they don't make them that way anymore". They sucked. Demand far outstripped Martin's ability to deliver in those days. Quality suffered. The family owned business was run then by a generation that had drifted away from the music a bit. Anyway, don't mind me. Carry on.

[rjoxyz]

My impression has been that we are now at a point of diminishing returns with guitar manufacturers who have been traditionally regarded as the cream of the crop. "Getting what you pay for" is only true up to a point.

 

Unfortunately, this is largely fueled by the Walmart mentality most of us have adopted as consumers. North American manufacturers will never be able to compete to any meaningful degree with their Asian counterparts when it comes to production costs and pricing. On top of this, Asian companies have progressed in making quality products, to a point we would not have imagined a few years ago. This is not only true of guitars, but most anything. Take a look at what Hyundai is selling here now. The brand garnered snickers a few years ago and is now competing favorably with car companies viewed as being makers of quality vehicles.

 

I own 2 Martins, a Larrivee and now an Avalon (Eurpopean made). I also own some Asian made guitars that are in at least the same league as these, at 1/4-1/2 the cost, and I have played several that to some ears and eyes, are superior. Not sure where it will all end, but it seems clear the near extinction of the American manufacturing industry is directly before us.

[Dave W.]

Not sure where it will all end, but it seems clear the near extinction of the American manufacturing industry is directly before us.

 

Could be, hope not, but when you have a union employee at some big US automaker, sweeping the floor for $25 an hour, with a benefit package to die for, something has got to give. The pendulum swings both ways. It has been swinging back to correct some of the overkill of the last 40 years, but it still has a ways to go. We have priced ourselves out of the market.

 

Afterthought: Boy, this is close to religion and politics, hope I have not made a mistake posting this.

[kwakatak]

 

My impression has been that we are now at a point of diminishing returns with guitar manufacturers who have been traditionally regarded as the cream of the crop. "Getting what you pay for" is only true up to a point. Unfortunately, this is largely fueled by the Walmart mentality most of us have adopted as consumers. North American manufacturers will never be able to compete to any meaningful degree with their Asian counterparts when it comes to production costs and pricing. On top of this, Asian companies have progressed in making quality products, to a point we would not have imagined a few years ago. This is not only true of guitars, but most anything. Take a look at what Hyundai is selling here now. The brand garnered snickers a few years ago and is now competing favorably with car companies viewed as being makers of quality vehicles. I own 2 Martins, a Larrivee and now an Avalon (Eurpopean made). I also own some Asian made guitars that are in at least the same league as these, at 1/4-1/2 the cost, and I have played several that to some ears and eyes, are superior. Not sure where it will all end, but it seems clear the near extinction of the American manufacturing industry is directly before us.

 

 

I do beg to differ with regards to Larrivee. I'd have to say that their product from their Canadian factory and the price they charge puts many of the Martins and Taylors that I've tried to shame. Ever since I acquired a Larrivee OM-03R last year I haven't been able to get all that excited about many of Martin or Taylor's offerings. For half the price of an OM-21 I believe I have a better guitar in tone, material quality and workmanship.

[rjoxyz]

 

I do beg to differ with regards to Larrivee. I'd have to say that their product from their Canadian factory and the price they charge puts many of the Martins and Taylors that I've tried to shame. Ever since I acquired a Larrivee OM-03R last year I haven't been able to get all that excited about many of Martin or Taylor's offerings. For half the price of an OM-21 I believe I have a better guitar in tone, material quality and workmanship.

 

 

I have to agree with you as my L-03 has become my favorite guitar and at the $900 or so I paid, it is at least as good a bargain as any Asian guitar I have encountered. I was actually posing a rather broad theory without thinking of specific exceptions.

[rjoxyz]

Could be, hope not, but when you have a union employee at some big US automaker, sweeping the floor for $25 an hour, with a benefit package to die for, something has got to give. The pendulum swings both ways. It has been swinging back to correct some of the overkill of the last 40 years, but it still has a ways to go. We have priced ourselves out of the market. Afterthought: Boy, this is close to religion and politics, hope I have not made a mistake posting this.

 

I think it is still on topic as it really still relates to guitars at its core. On one last socio-economic note, putting aside the bloated UAW excesses (I was raised by an International Rep. who was organizing in the 1930's when it was actually needed), I am afraid there are no circumstances where we will be able to compete with the low production costs of countries whose industrial practices we basically rejected as a society, 100 years ago.

 

And I apply this theory to the guitar industry.

[kenadyan]

Yestersday i played hook'y from work ( selt employed- my boss said OK )

 

So your wife said it was okay, eh?

 

Seriously though, I do agree with some of what you said regarding the Martin's. A couple of years ago, I stopped by a GC to try out a bunch of guitars and one of the first ones I tried was a Martin 000-28EC Eric Clapton signature model. I must of played it for about 10 minutes and was totally unimpressed.

 

At the time GC wanted just a hair under $3K for that guitar. I then moved onto some $700-1000 Takamines which, IMHO, sounded much better (tone wise).

 

Maybe it was the room, or perhaps that particular guitar was a dud (even Martin, Taylor, and Gibson can produce one of those every now and again), but I wouldn't have been willing to pay $500 for that guitar much less 6x that amount.

[guitarhound]

 

Flashback 40 years......Outside music store...... Same conversation, same conclusion. Players? Mommas and Poppas of the current crop of Martin, Gibson, Guild bashers. Flashforward 40 years checking guitar bluebook priceguides, late '60s Martin, Gibson, Guild guitars extend double digit year after year increase in sales prices. Highly sought after and not staying on Vintage dealers hooks for long. Conclusion. Who knows? Play lot's of guitars and pick one you like. Just a personal observation. Please don't get sore. I've heard all this for decades. I've played/owned '50s/'60s Martins and Gibsons. The current Gibsons are far Better. The current Martin rosewoods sound different because Brazil is no longer available. The '70s Martins can't possibly be your reference point for "they don't make them that way anymore". They sucked. Demand far outstripped Martin's ability to deliver in those days. Quality suffered. The family owned business was run then by a generation that had drifted away from the music a bit. Anyway, don't mind me. Carry on.

 

 

Dan , I agree with you on the Montana made Gibsons of the past 20 years or so being better than older Gibsons maybe not the 50's but at least better than the mid 60's onward.

 

My point of reference on Martins goes back to the 1920's until just last year not counting the little Civil War model I once owned. Happy (not bragging) to say I've owned multiples from every decade so I do know a thing or two when I say most new Martins are disappointing. I'm not here to bash the guitar company from my home state that I love....just stating the facts.

 

As far as blue book prices...don't be mis-lead. There's some major false inflation going on and I'm not sure if it's fueled by yuppie investment types pushing their yuppie clients into having this stuff in their portfolio or if greedy vintage dealers are blowing up the bubble and their are too many uninformed buyers thinking everything old is good but something's not jiving between the quality of 70'/80's stuff rising in price or the pre 70's stuff going out of site. A bunch of those instruments are junk to a player compared to new Fender Custom Shop guitars for example. I'd much rather have a Fender CS 59 Relic Esquire (which I do...best Fender I've ever owned including vintage 50's stuff)than a 72 original Tele for example if they are the same price. If the stuff you claim is flying off the vintage guitar dealers hooks at the high prices being asked then somebody is going to be cryin the blues when they go to re-sell....IMHO.

 

BTW,70's Martins sucking seems to be a myth to me. I've played a number of them lately and some are pretty darn good. Do they all need neck sets...yes. Are the bridges and bridge plates pretty hefty and sound a little dull....yes. But, these things can be taken care of and braces shaved a bit etc. and you have some great sounding/playing guitars.

[Dave W.]

I am afraid there are no circumstances where we will be able to compete with the low production costs of countries whose industrial practices we basically rejected as a society, 100 years ago. And I apply this theory to the guitar industry.

 

This is a good point, I neglected to include things like OSHA, and environmental issues. Any number of companies whose manufacturing process's create hazardous waste have transferred production to countries who let them just dump it.

[knockwood]

Flashback 40 years......Outside music store...... Same conversation, same conclusion. Players? Mommas and Poppas of the current crop of Martin, Gibson, Guild bashers. Flashforward 40 years checking guitar bluebook priceguides, late '60s Martin, Gibson, Guild guitars extend double digit year after year increase in sales prices. Highly sought after and not staying on Vintage dealers hooks for long. Conclusion. Who knows? Play lot's of guitars and pick one you like. Just a personal observation. Please don't get sore. I've heard all this for decades. I've played/owned '50s/'60s Martins and Gibsons. The current Gibsons are far Better. The current Martin rosewoods sound different because Brazil is no longer available. The '70s Martins can't possibly be your reference point for "they don't make them that way anymore". They sucked. Demand far outstripped Martin's ability to deliver in those days. Quality suffered. The family owned business was run then by a generation that had drifted away from the music a bit. Anyway, don't mind me. Carry on.

 

You been reading a lot of James Ellroy lately? A kind of hard-boiled poetry, those first two paragraphs of yours.

[Cripes]

There is some credibility to the investment angle, if your portfolio needs more stabilizing with such things, but that is way outside my 52mm. I'm a player, period. I could not be comfortable playing a guitar if part of my buy strategy was to use it as a different kind of instrument.

[knockwood]

 

There is some credibility to the investment angle, if your portfolio needs more stabilizing with such things, but that is way outside my 52mm. I'm a player, period. I could not be comfortable playing a guitar if part of my buy strategy was to use it as a different kind of instrument.

 

 

+1

[MBWendel]

I'm a Martin fan, and agree with some of what you're saying. Some examples I have played seem to be a bit overbuilt. Will they open up with time? I'm sure they will. However, an instrument should not be tremendously overbuilt for $2300 - just my opinion, though. But, it's a Martin and they are generally good to go, IMHO.

 

In terms of materials, I think that Martin is still using quality woods, at least in terms of the wood that I buy from luthiery shops. It's not first quality in most cases, but definitely not seconds or low grade RW, etc.

 

As a side note, I sometimes wonder if Guitar Center has instruments that are not as nice as what a Make 'n Music, if you're in Chicago, would have. I may be crazy, but shops like these seem to pick their instruments better. I definitely could be wrong.

[DonK]

 

Flashback 40 years......Outside music store...... Same conversation, same conclusion. Players? Mommas and Poppas of the current crop of Martin, Gibson, Guild bashers. Flashforward 40 years checking guitar bluebook priceguides, late '60s Martin, Gibson, Guild guitars extend double digit year after year increase in sales prices. Highly sought after and not staying on Vintage dealers hooks for long. Conclusion. Who knows? Play lot's of guitars and pick one you like. Just a personal observation. Please don't get sore. I've heard all this for decades. I've played/owned '50s/'60s Martins and Gibsons. The current Gibsons are far Better. The current Martin rosewoods sound different because Brazil is no longer available. The '70s Martins can't possibly be your reference point for "they don't make them that way anymore". They sucked. Demand far outstripped Martin's ability to deliver in those days. Quality suffered. The family owned business was run then by a generation that had drifted away from the music a bit. Anyway, don't mind me. Carry on.

 

 

+1. I bought my first guitar in 1971. That was hardly a golden era for Martin, and Taylor wasn't even around. I've bought a number of Martin's over the past five years - fantastic guitars all - and could still kick myself for selling my 000-28 (soon to be replaced by a Johnson at 1/3 what I paid for the 000-28 mine, and 1/4 what they're selling for now: I don't expect the Johnson to match my former 000-28, but I don't feel like spending $2K either). I bought my first Taylor in 1999; maybe the ones before that were "better", but the ones I've owned, starting with my first in 2000, have all been stellar. The sound of my current 414 is beautiful - different from a Martin or Larrivee - but gorgeous sounding in its own right. I had a Larrivee D-05 for a couple of years - not my cup of tea as I've said before - but an excellent guitar. Still, it didn't have anything on the D-28 or Taylor 410 guitars I owned at the time.

 

One thing to note about the myriad of these modern inexpensive and moderately priced guitars is that many of them are made of solid wood, and high-quality solid wood at that. That may well be part of the reason some of them sound so good. It wasn't very many years ago when an inexpensive/moderately-priced guitar inherently meant laminated wood on the back and sides, and sometimes the top. There are still plenty of those out there from the likes of Fender, Washburn, Yamaha, Seagull, and Epi, and I don't hear anyone saying that those guitars on average are any match for a Martin or Taylor. It's the Blueridges, Masterbilts, Breedlove Atlas's, Morgan Monroe's and Johnsons that are getting the accolades, and what they do is offer solid wood construction at a fraction of the price of the big guys. The build quality isn't always spot-on, and they use poly instead of lacquer (though Taylor does too), but these guitar are getting built by people earning $2 an hour instead of $20 an hour, so it shouldn't be a surprise that all things being equal or nearly equal (wood, constuction design, QC), they should compare well - if not perfectly - to the big guys' guitars even though they sell at much lower prices.

 

As I've said in a different recent thread, I do believe that many inexpensive and moderately priced guitars are beginning to approach some of the traditional big names in sound quality (not sure I can say the same thing about the construction, given bjorn-fjord's recent post on that subject). I'm very fond of the Aria AD-80 (Martin D-42 clone) I bought last year for $550, a fraction of what an actual D-42 would cost. Does it sound as good as my D-41? I think different people would judge differently, as tone is so subjective. But, to the extent that it begins to approach the sound of the D-41 at all is a testament to it's own quality, not to a lessened quality of the D-41. I'll put my D-41 up against all comers, from Blueridge to Collings.

 

I've got to agree with Dan, I've been hearing this since I bought my first guitar, a 1972 Fender Tele purchased new in 1972. Ironically, that was the Fender CBS era, and all one heard in those days was how crappy the CBS guitars were. I'd read the guitar classifieds in the Washington Post as a teenager and see "pre-CBS" being shouted to the rafters as a talisman of superiority. Nowadays I see these 70's era Fenders that were considered crap in their time going for thousands of dollars.

 

Okay, that's the end of my rant, but from where I sit, this stuff about them not making them like they used to is deja vu - I've heard it all before.

[J.]

I can't afford a high end guitar so I don't have to worry about it.

[Cripes]

[quote=DonK;21604604

 

Okay, that's the end of my rant, but from where I sit, this stuff about them not making them like they used to is deja vu - I've heard it all before.

 

 

 

There's a reason for hearing it all before. I have had many Martins bought new and used, and have much play time on some I did not own. I have been playing for 35 years - and haven't gotten any better over the last 30 of those years - on acoustic. I like Martin for reasons that go beyond just the product itself. But, I have also made certain observations and there's ongoing confirmation by other seasoned acoustic players/owners. The subject of this thread alone is giving testimony to that via the eyeball of another acoustic veteran. It is just that - an observation.

 

Maybe my ears and eyes have gotten a little glitchy over these years, but I think my observations alone are credible. They are being echo'd in this and other threads. I sincerely do not not make this observation my general opinion of Martin, Taylor and others. I'm not jaded that way, but there's more than just one person crying wolf.

[DonK]

 

There's a reason for hearing it all before. I have had many Martins bought new and used, and have much play time on some I did not own. I have been playing for 35 years - and haven't gotten any better over the last 30 of those years - on acoustic. I like Martin for reasons that go beyond just the product itself. But, I have also made certain observations and there's ongoing confirmation by other seasoned acoustic players/owners. The subject of this thread alone is giving testimony to that via the eyeball of another acoustic veteran. It is just that - an observation. Maybe my ears and eyes have gotten a little glitchy over these years, but I think my observations alone are credible. They are being echo'd in this and other threads. I sincerely do not not make this observation my general opinion of Martin, Taylor and others. I'm not jaded that way, but there's more than just one person crying wolf.

 

 

Well, there always has been and always will be more than one person crying wolf, which is why I brought up the early '70's Fenders (and I could say the same about '70's Martins, and '80's Gibson acoustics). Considered crap by the seasoned veterans of that era; considered almost akin to the holy grail today (I say almost because they aren't held in the esteem of the pre-CBS '50's and early '60's version). If they were objectively crap then, they can only be worse now, yet many people don't seem to think so.

 

But while I've been playing and buying for 35 years, I'm content to remain in the minority that doesn't see the dramatic decline that some do.

[fred zappelin]

I have been to GC in Paramus - They have an acoustic room with a secondary room for the higher end stuff. In that secondary room they have a rattly old household humidifier that is placed just below the Martins. Its a joke as you can hardly hear yourself talk over the noise this thing makes no less hear the guitar. Not to mention what the humidifier is doing to those expensive Martins. They have quite a few Breedloves in stock that are very nice but they alot heavier than the others due to the internal bracing system. Whats the deal with that internal brace and pegless bridge ? Obviously to have one you need the other so...

 

The OP mentioned how the imports are rivaling the quality of the US made brands and I have to agree. I have almost pulled the trigger on an Alvarez, Breedlove, Epi Masterbuilt, Guild and Parkwood. They all have some really good guitars for $500 - $900.

 

So many choices that make it tough to finallly choose one.

 

Of the Martins and Taylors and Larrivees that I have played recently the Larrivee came out ahead.

 

I know I`m all over the place here but it's so friggin hard to nail down a choice. I`m leaning towards the 00 concert body style and will focus on those for now. Martins are over a $G note,

Breedlove has one for $500

http://www.guitarcenter.com/shop/product/buy_breedlove_atlas_series_ac200sm_acoustic_guitar?full_sku=512407%2e010

[denvertrakker]

I can't afford a high end guitar so I don't have to worry about it.

 

+1

 

Bottom feeders need to make music too...

[D18RB100]

In regards to what someone earlier said about some retail shops getting better instruments...

 

I live about 1-1/2 hours from FQMS in Louisville. I have NEVER played a dead guitar in there. Maybe it's because they set every one up, maybe it's because on any number of factors. But I've NEVER played a dead guitar in that shop. I've played guitars I didn't like the sound of, but that's subjective. They weren't dead. I've gone to GCs and Sam Ashes where there wasn't a good guitar on the wall.

 

 

Nate