Buying an acoustic - open to ideas

[Blackbelt1]

I'll be buying an acoustic soon, and here's what I'm looking for:

 

Budget $300-$500

 

Deep rich tone

 

A cutaway

 

A tuner in the built-in electronics, and easy access to the battery

 

No bridge pins - I would prefer a string-through bridge of some sort. I hate the pins.

 

Suggestions?

 

Thanks,

 

~Blackbelt

[moctzal]

Ovation Celebrity of some sort is all I can think of. The string through bridge stipulation is very limiting IMO.

[DeepEnd]

The Breedlove Atlas models fit your criteria except for the price. The AJ250SM http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Breedlove-Atlas-AJ250SM-Jumbo-AcousticElectric-Guitar-?sku=511609, which is a jumbo, costs about $700. Try finding a used one.

[guit30]

Deepend,

Have you played these Atlas guitars, They are different

jim

[Blackbelt1]

Thanks for the suggestions thus far.

 

I suppose if I had to make concessions, I'd live with the bridge pins...I just wouldn't like 'em.

 

~Blackbelt

[Howie22]

I have a Takamine G Series cedar top that strings through the bridge.

 

I paid just over $300 used.

[Tony Burns]

In not really into Chinese guitars - but the Epi masterbuilts might be a consideration or possibly a used Larrivee .

[babablowfish]

May I ask what your issue is with bridge pins? Freeman Keller has demonstrated the definite impact that bridge pins can have on a guitar's tone and sustain. If you get a guitar with pins you can experiment and modify the tone to your liking. I for instance found that big ugly brass pins made a major difference in the tone and sustain on my Yamaha beater. Others here have found that ebony gives them a darker, mellower tone they prefer, etc. With a pinlesss bridge what you get is what you are stuck with.

[DeepEnd]

 

Deepend, Have you played these Atlas guitars, They are different jim

 

I played an Atlas dread a couple of weeks ago and I was impressed.

 

Blackbelt1:

 

Strictly speaking, the Atlas AJ250SM doesn't have a built-in tuner. I realized that after I posted but I didn't have a chance to edit my post. The Takamine EAN10C has all the features you want but it'll set you back $899.99 new http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Takamine-EAN10C-Dreadnought-AcousticElectric-Cutaway-Guitar?sku=516310. I found one on eBay for $849.00/OBO with a hard case and free shipping http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-PRO-Takamine-EAN10C-acoustic-electric-guitar-w-case_W0QQitemZ290108356457QQihZ019QQcategoryZ113481QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem. I don't know of anything cheaper that meets all your needs. Even used, an EAN10C probably won't be in your price range, although you might get lucky. Ibanez Artwood A/E's (except the AW130) all have built-in tuners but pin style bridges. The AW30ECENT ($349.99), AC35ECENT ($349.99), AJ30ECEHS ($369.99), and AW35RECENT ($399.99) are all in your price range http://www.musiciansfriend.com/navigation/acoustic-electric-guitars?N=100001%2b304277%2b10&Ns=P_Price%7c0&Ntk=All&Ntt=Artwood&Nty=1&g=guitar&page=1. In your price range, something is going to have to give. Decide which features are important and which you can eliminate. And, as babablowfish asked, what's the deal with the pinless bridge?

[bsman]

 

Ovation Celebrity of some sort is all I can think of. The string through bridge stipulation is very limiting IMO.

 

 

 

Alas - no Celebrity I've ever played (and I owned a Celebrity Deluxe) can be said to have "Deep, rich tone."

[Blackbelt1]

May I ask what your issue is with bridge pins? Freeman Keller has demonstrated the definite impact that bridge pins can have on a guitar's tone and sustain. If you get a guitar with pins you can experiment and modify the tone to your liking. I for instance found that big ugly brass pins made a major difference in the tone and sustain on my Yamaha beater. Others here have found that ebony gives them a darker, mellower tone they prefer, etc. With a pinlesss bridge what you get is what you are stuck with.

 

Wow, DeepEnd, Howie, others - some great insights in this thread - thanks!

 

 

My issue with the bridge pins is that I get very inconsistent results with them with each restringing. They never seem to settle back into the bridge the same way each time.

 

~Blackbelt

[moctzal]

How much do bridge pins affect tone?

Listen for yourself:

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1534428

 

And do you put the same pin back into the same slot it was removed from while changing strings? That seemed to fix that problem that I had...just a thought.

[Freeman Keller]

 

My issue with the bridge pins is that I get very inconsistent results with them with each restringing. They never seem to settle back into the bridge the same way each time. ~Blackbelt

 

 

 

Black, the simple fact is that most acoustic guitars use pinned bridges for a very good reason - they work. If you insist on a pinless bridge you are severly limiting your options. There are builders who have done an elegent job of trying to eliminate pins, and some who have done it poorly, but they are in the minority.

 

The set up of a good guitar should include properly fitting the pins and maybe slotting the bridge (which can also help with the seating of the pin). A good tech may also ramp the bridge which optimizes the break angle of the strings. If the pin holes are properly reamed they will fit the pins perfectly. Any good tech can do any or all of these operations to any pinned bridge guitar.

 

The technique you use to install strings can also help hold them in place. I put a little kink in the string at the point where the winding at the ball end stops, insert them into the hole with this little dog leg pointed down, put the pin in but not tight, and pull the string up against the bridge plate while gently pushing the pin down. It is not friction or tightness of the hole that hold it in place, it is the wedging action of the ball against the side of the pin. During both the pin test and the string test I literally pulled and replace the pins in four different guitars over and over and over - and seated them correctly every time.

 

Baba is right about the effects of pins on the sound of a guitar and as my little test showed me, it can be used to "fine tune" a guitar's characteristics. They can also dress up the appearance - bone pins with pearl dots on dark embony can be a fashion statement. And a few players complain about pins getting in the way of their strumming hand, but you can buy some with "low profile heads" if that is a problem.

 

So don't give up on pins so easily.

 

Your other criterea are somewhat easier, but I wouldn't insist on a built in tuner (I carry a $20 Korg which works fine unplugged and my Boss digital recorder has a built in tuner if I'm recording). Likewise a cutaway - it limits your options dramatically and most acoustic players don't go above 12 very often anyway. And tone is in the ears of the beholder - you'll have to decide what you like by playing and listening to everything you can.

 

Good luck and have fun

[garthman]

Get a Crafter.

 

Look here:

 

www.crafterguitars.com

[Attila]

 

No bridge pins - I would prefer a string-through bridge of some sort. I hate the pins.

 

I've never even seen an acoustic with a pinless bridge.

[babablowfish]

I've never even seen an acoustic with a pinless bridge.

 

 

 

Also see: http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/General/Glossary/Pinless/pinless.html

[Freeman Keller]

 

I've never even seen an acoustic with a pinless bridge.

 

 

At least some Breedloves have pinless bridges - the strings go thru holes in the back of the bridge, then bend up to break over the saddle (kind of like putting a ball end string on a classical). But they also use the JLD bridge doctor and some other unusual construction methods. Works well for them. I've seen a few others that are very beautifully executed.

[kpmnc24]

I'm also looking for a guitar around $500 but I am OK with bridge pins. What about Seagull guitars?

[guit30]

http://www.breedloveguitars.com/instruments/guitars/atlas/ad200_sm/index.html

 

I played one of these used a couple of weeks ago, did need a setup, but it still performed admirably, incredible tone, the pinless bridge did not seem to effect tone, the satin solid top was pretty as the Abalone rosette

-A winner, neck a bit thick for me and the guitar is heavy because of the JDL trussing system that is supposed to improve tone and I believe does(Korean, not Chinese)

JIm

[babablowfish]

Seagulls are fine guitars. So are Parkwoods, Alvarez, Cort, Epiphone, Tacoma, Washburn, Ibanez, Breedlove, Godin, Art & Lutherie and a bunch more. With acoustic guitars you will get more bang for the buck buying a straight acoustic (no cutaway) with no electronics and then adding a pickup later - the K&K Pure Western Mini and the Baggs Ibeam are 2 among several that are well-regarded. Go and try out as many different guitars that you can. There is so much variation from one to the next in terms of neck width, body size, wood used in construction, bracing, etc. that you will need to find the guitar that feels, sounds and looks best to you.

[DeepEnd]

Freeman is correct about limiting your choices. Every time you add a criterion, you eliminate more guitars. For example, if you want a sunburst finish (for example), that eliminates a bunch of choices; if you want a sunburst cutaway, that eliminates a bunch more; if you want a sunburst cutaway with a cedar top, abalone rosette, and a built in tuner, that eliminates another bunch; if you want all that for a specific price point, that eliminates yet another bunch until finally there's little or nothing left. That's what I meant when I wrote, "in your price range, something is going to have to give. Decide which features are important and which you can eliminate."

[Blackbelt1]

I appreciate the tips - I'm going to hit the GC Memorial Day sale this weekend and see if I can score. The local one here has some Seagulls and some Breedloves in stock; I'll play a bunch of them for sure.

 

I know I have narrow specs on this particular purchase, but with 12 guitars (2 other acoustics) I have an exact purpose in mind for this guitar. That purpose will be to accompany me to the open mics I host - I want something I can plug 'n play with, and I want the cutaway because I'm primarily an electric player who wants to knock out some acoustic leads when sitting in with others.

 

So yeah, I know there's a small list of guitars that fit the bill to the tee. If I have to make concessions, the tuner would be the first to go, and the pins would be the second. The deep tone, overall feel, and a cutaway are the "must haves."

 

~Blackbelt

[Blackbelt1]

UPDATE:

--------

 

I hit the GC Memorial Day sale this morning and bought this:

 

 

Ibanez AES10 mini-jumbo. They normally go for $349, I picked this one up for $290. It does have the bridge pins, but everything else I was looking for was there - a nice tone which is surprisingly rich when amplified, a florentine cutaway, and a nice Fishman system with a tuner. I almost bought an Epiphone which was a larger bodied guitar, but the neck felt like a baseball bat. This Ibanez feels more like one of my Gretsch Hollow Body electrics, so I think the transition back and forth will be much easier.

 

Thanks again to everyone who offered up advice, both pro and con. You were all really helpful!

 

 

~Blackbelt

[babablowfish]

Very nice. Enjoy!