What do you all think about the Babicz/Martin collaboration?

[AugTPD]

I was looking at the Marting OMCRE article on the HC acoustic main page. New guitar by Martin with the Babicz adjustable neck thing. Kind of interesting. Of the "established" builders I wouldn't have picked Martin as the one to partner up with Babicz and produce a guitar like that.

 

But the guitar looks nice, much more visually appealing than the crazy Babicz guitars, IMO. I've only seen a Babicz once and don't know how the adjustable neck holds up or affects tone, but it is an interesting idea.

 

I wonder if this is a one time thing or if Martin is going to incorporate this into more of their guitars if this one is a success....

[Freeman Keller]

That model number brings up a blank on the Martin page. Can you post a link to the article?

[mikechoate]

Yaeh, give us a link! I like your dog btw

[AugTPD]

http://news.harmony-central.com/Newp/2007/Babicz-Guitars-Martin-OMCRE.html

 

there ya go. It's supposed to debut at NAMM in Austin.

[Freeman Keller]

Thanks. Boy that is going to stir up the old dovetail vs MT hornets nest at UMGF!

[AugTPD]

 

Thanks. Boy that is going to stir up the old dovetail vs MT hornets nest at UMGF!

 

 

No kiddin! Like I said, If a collaboration between Babicz and anyone was going to happen, I was really surprised that it was Martin. Martin is pretty much seen as one of the "traditionalist" builders out there.

 

I wouldn't have been surprised to see Taylor jump on board, even though ol' Bob typically only likes to use his own innovations on his guitars. Oh well, we'll see how this plays out.

[Freeman Keller]

It is being discussed at UMGF. So far nothing bad.

 

http://p082.ezboard.com/ftheunofficialmartinguitarforumfrm4.showMessage?topicID=39255.topic

 

As a side note, I remember a question on that forum that basically said "with Martin selling 70,000 guitars a year, will there be enough technicians to do the required resets in 2040? How many will be still under warranty?". Maybe this collaboration is part of the long term thinking to head off the crash.

[bjorn-fjord]

I don't get it. A guitar with an adjustable neck angle makes much more sense than this so-called solution. Here's why.

 

Say the guitar has distorted over years of being under string tension. The soundboard will belly behind the bridge and dip in front of the bridge, the bridge will begin to tip forward, and the headblock may begin to tilt toward the bridge. All of these conditions will eventually result in high action. But the action will get worse the higher up the neck you play. The only way to restore the guitar's playability all the way up the neck is to essentially "tilt" the neck back.

 

This Martin/Babicz thing should not work because it effectively lowers the action an equal amount at the first fret as at the twefth. Simple geometry tells us that making the action playable at the twelfth fret will make the action at the first few frets too low. To correct high action, the string height at the upper frets needs to be lowered more than at the lower frets. Only by changing the neck angle can this be achieved.

 

Unless I'm missing something, this is not a workable solution. I can't understand why Martin would sign on to this.

[AugTPD]

From what I've seen, Babicz doesn't market it as a solution to long term neck angle problems but more for action adjustments on the fly. I think he designed it so you can strum the snot out of it on one song and then lower the action down for some delicate fingerstyle. I still don't buy the concept, but oh well.

 

As for changing the neck angle, I think Washburn's NV series acoustic/electric guitars had something like that built into them. But I wasn't a big fan of those either as they were only useful plugged in.

[bjorn-fjord]

 

From what I've seen, Babicz doesn't market it as a solution to long term neck angle problems but more for action adjustments on the fly. I think he designed it so you can strum the snot out of it on one song and then lower the action down for some delicate fingerstyle. I still don't buy the concept, but oh well. As for changing the neck angle, I think Washburn's NV series acoustic/electric guitars had something like that built into them. But I wasn't a big fan of those either as they were only useful plugged in.

 

 

So it's supposed to be a versatility thing? Well then I stand corrected. I thought I had to be missing something.

I must not be a very picky player. I like my action on the low end of medium and it suits me for both fingerstyle and hard strumming. So to me, it sounds a little gimicky. Mike Doolin has an interesting neck angle adjustment.

[Hudman]

 

So it's supposed to be a versatility thing? Well then I stand corrected. I thought I had to be missing something. I must not be a very picky player. I like my action on the low end of medium and it suits me for both fingerstyle and hard strumming. So to me, it sounds a little gimicky. Mike Doolin has an interesting neck angle adjustment.

 

 

I feel the same way. I adjust the action where I like it and I leave it alone.

[drnihili]

 

I feel the same way. I adjust the action where I like it and I leave it alone.

 

 

I think most of us do that. But in part that's because changing the action is non-trivial. Suppose you could change the action as easily as tuning a string, would you change the action more often then? I'm sure I don't know whether I would, I barely have the tuning thing down.

[AugTPD]

I don't think I'd like changing the action either. The only way I think that it may be useful is to play slide with it high and then lower it for other forms of playing.

[0rbitz9]

If they're going for the real "cutting edge", it needs one of their Micarta

fingerboards.

[Hudman]

 

I think most of us do that. But in part that's because changing the action is non-trivial. Suppose you could change the action as easily as tuning a string, would you change the action more often then? I'm sure I don't know whether I would, I barely have the tuning thing down.

 

 

No, because I like my action as low as I can get it without buzzing. I play pretty aggresively (pick and fingers), so I need medium low action. I hate it any higher than that.

[Tony Burns]

i like the idea of the adjustable neck , but ive played a Babicz- i think their Garbage ( at least the one i played was ), For some reason I think Martin tried this adjustable neck before on a limited edition , and it changed their sound somewhat which pissed off people immensly - even thou it is kinda cool to be able to adjust the neck angle at a whim . This sounds like a Taylor thing not a Martin thing - with their screwed on necks. Personnally this is a big mistake for Martin !

[Freeman Keller]

Isn't Babicz the guitar with the weird two piece bridge and the strings anchored near the rim of the lower bout (they kind of fan out from the bridge)? There is another brand that has the neck hooked to the body with some knurled knobs that allows it to be adjusted for angle - I've heard discussions about the merits of this too.

 

I'm with a bunch of the folks here who doesn't see any need to change the action once it is set the way I like it. I play slide (poorly) on everything I own and everything has a pretty low flat action. I also think that resetting the neck every 25 or so years on a good guitar isn't a big deal - if you are going to keep it that long it is just part of the ownership.

[JasonA]

I had one of the Babicz Tribeca guitars, which is essentially a traditional style guitar but with this kind of neck and an adjustable bridge (not the funky strings on top type). The tone was very different from what I'm accustomed to. For some applications I thought it was superb... flatpicking a run gave a very bell-like tone and strumming ye olde cowboy chords sounded way better than a guitar that inexpensive should have. It lost it for me when playing fingerstyle or up the neck where it didn't yield the sensitivity I like.

 

But that was a cheap (under 500) guitar with a laminate back. I'm quite curious to see how this Martin sounds.

[DonK]

 

No, because I like my action as low as I can get it without buzzing. I play pretty aggresively (pick and fingers), so I need medium low action. I hate it any higher than that.

 

 

 

That'd be me too! I'd like the idea of an adjustable neck ANGLE, as bjorn said, but as to raising and lowering action on the fly, well, I don't really get it (unless someone wants to play slide on one song and shred on the next). I'm all for technological change that produces useful improvement: I like Taylor's idea of a bolt-on neck using laser-cut shims for quick neck angle adjustments when needed. I have Tacoma and Taylor guitars with bolt-on necks and love both; no problems with the sound of either of those guitars for me. Collings uses 'em, so why not others?

[Honch]

The thing is: Martin caught on it. Why? They didn't see just a washout. They saw - maybe - some serious competition.

 

The neck adjustable thing IS the only thing that have happened recently in the acoustic guitar territory that WILL MAKE SENSE to the AVERAGE user. The day you sell your guitar to another person, your perfect set up and action WILL NOT BE SUFFICIENT for another person, who, maybe, using lighter gauge or heavier gauge strings. That other thing with fanned out strings are another idea altogether that may be the least importance of the feautures.

 

I know in Scandinavia, that Garrisson guitars has pulled representation from there due to the climate changes. Their guitars couldn't stand it, just a couple of years. The the top started to raise at the bridge. And today in this Global Warming climate, you better bet you *ss on that a wooden piece of chunk will warp much sooner than before, and you need to change action to go along with it. Wood does warp. Frets protrude due to dryness, damp. One day, you can't find strings that'll suit you, you have to buy another set. And set the action/intonation according to that.

 

The peculiar thing is: Electric guitar players would NEVER buy any guitar that you couldn't set action on, or change intonation on.

 

Easily changeable action on an acosutic guitar, does really makes sense. If you watch all other acoustic guitars out there, there just seems to be some cosmetic variation on the same theme. These Babicz are really ones that makes a sonic difference. For good or worse? The neck is actually detached from the top and body, leaving no dead spots at the twelfth fret or when the neck crosses up onto the body. You should have to raise the price to very High End Martins, or Taylors if you want to get rid of that phenomena completely.

 

It's the same as Ovation once had. Initial resentment to new ideas.

 

/Honch

[Honch]

Babicz uses the tilt only. At the nut it is the same. You angle it. Try it first THOROUGHLY before you make any verdict.

 

 

I don't get it. A guitar with an adjustable neck angle makes much more sense than this so-called solution. Here's why. Say the guitar has distorted over years of being under string tension. The soundboard will belly behind the bridge and dip in front of the bridge, the bridge will begin to tip forward, and the headblock may begin to tilt toward the bridge. All of these conditions will eventually result in high action. But the action will get worse the higher up the neck you play. The only way to restore the guitar's playability all the way up the neck is to essentially "tilt" the neck back. This Martin/Babicz thing should not work because it effectively lowers the action an equal amount at the first fret as at the twefth. Simple geometry tells us that making the action playable at the twelfth fret will make the action at the first few frets too low. To correct high action, the string height at the upper frets needs to be lowered more than at the lower frets. Only by changing the neck angle can this be achieved. Unless I'm missing something, this is not a workable solution. I can't understand why Martin would sign on to this.

 

[Honch]

By and large, I think Babicz caters to electric guitar players, who wants to play acoustic. Be able to set at "shred" action, narrow spacing and the nut, and be able to play high up without notes going sharp. To me, their nut width is way too narrow for my hands, and the outer strings seems to fall off the frets very easily when doing pull offs, as electric guitar player does.

[brahmz118]

I have this feature on my Nechville banjo. It works great, in my experience.

 

If I'm experimenting with bridges of different heights, I usually don't want to sand the feet or the top. So instead I can adjust the string height from the heel, just like the Babicz. I think it has virtually the same effect as sanding or shimming the saddle.

 

 

If I had significant neck warping problems I'd probably have those issues addressed independently.

 

I am a little curious though, I believe Tom Nechville had this idea patented back in 1991. To this day only Nechville banjos have this feature.

[JasmineTea]

 

The thing is: Martin caught on it. Why? They didn't see just a washout. They saw - maybe - some serious competition. Initial resentment to new ideas. /Honch

I think Babics would've been a washout if he had'nt got this thing going with Martin. Competition? Hardly. Those things are nothing but a gimmick. The claims of "no choked bass up the neck" are a load of {censored}.

 

The tilt-a-neck thing has been around for a long time, nothing "new" about that. I've got a semi-hollow Danelectro bass from early '60s with tilt-a-neck. All Babicz did was rig it up to an acoustic body.

 

I don't think CFM is gonna convert all their existing models to accomodate Babicz rig. Most likely they'll do a couple models, if that.

[bjorn-fjord]

I think Babics would've been a washout if he had'nt got this thing going with Martin. Competition? Hardly. Those things are nothing but a gimmick. The claims of "no choked bass up the neck" are a load of {censored}. The tilt-a-neck thing has been around for a long time, nothing "new" about that. I've got a semi-hollow Danelectro bass from early '60s with tilt-a-neck. All Babicz did was rig it up to an acoustic body. I don't think CFM is gonna convert all their existing models to accomodate Babicz rig. Most likely they'll do a couple models, if that.

 

Come on JT, don't mince words. Tell us how you really feel!