La Patrie Guitars?

[Help!I'maRock!]

i recently found an old classical guitar method. its simply called "classic guitar" and it was published in 1954. its an extremely basic method that teaches how to fingerpick, read music and avoids teaching "michael row the boat ashore". all in all, i'm very happy with it.

 

there is one stipulation though. the book states that the pieces contained cannot be played on steel string guitars. you MUST have a nylon string guitar and hold it the proper way. so (wink, wink) its obvious that i now HAVE to buy a nylon string guitar. THE BOOK TOLD ME TO!!!

 

i've been looking online today at classical guitars and came upon La Patrie. I'm most interested in their Motif and Etude guitars. the Motif is a parlor guitar, while the Etude is full sized. i'm also considering going the cheapo route and getting the lowest line Yamaha.

 

what are the advantages to getting the parlor sized Motif? it seems to me that most "classical" guitarists would have played a parlor sized guitar in their day as opposed to the full bodied ones we see today. why the change in size during the 19th and 20th centuries and what exactly will i gain by getting the larger guitar simply to play in my living room? (later on, i might stick a pickup in the soundhole, but lets actually get something first.)

 

suggestions? comments?

[LaurentB]

Well, one thing I do know is that a Spanish guitar builder called Torres invented the fan bracing of classical guitar tops, in the late nineteenth century, which has been the template for all modern classical guitars. That was a major change.

I have understood that that has broadened the repertoire for the classical guitar quite a bit.

[digitalox]

I used to have an etude. Sound and fingerboard was OK, not great by any means but better than a lot of the lower end stuff. Seemed OK in comparison to similar others. Any opinions from the regular nyloners out there?

[Help!I'maRock!]

Well, one thing I do know is that a Spanish guitar builder called Torres invented the fan bracing of classical guitar tops, in the late nineteenth century, which has been the template for all modern classical guitars. That was a major change. I have understood that that has broadened the repertoire for the classical guitar quite a bit.

 

 

torres did indeed invent the fan bracing. but after looking at a variety of pics on the web, it seems that the bracing was used on what we call "parlor guitars" now. guitars before the torres design were even smaller. the fan bracing was then applied to the larger shape we see today as the typical nylon stringed guitar. i could be wrong, but that's what it seems like.

[Jeremy3]

Andres Segovia is partially responsible for the change in size. He wanted himself and others to be able to play guitar in concert halls, part of his goal to bring the guitar up to the level of respect of instruments such as the piano and violin. He worked with luthier Herman Hauser, and designed what we now call the classical guitar, with different woods, a different shape, and nylon rather than gut strings. If you want to sound like the classical guitarists you hear on most recordings, don't get the 'parlor' guitar. The parlor guitar would be more similar to those used by pre 20th century, unrecorded guitarists such as Fernando Sor.

[expertune]

Motif and Etude are both good guitars. I have a Motif and like it. I feel very comfortable holding the Motif because of its smaller body. It sounds like some full size classical guitars.

[Help!I'maRock!]

Motif and Etude are both good guitars. I have a Motif and like it. I feel very comfortable holding the Motif because of its smaller body. It sounds like some full size classical guitars.

 

 

do you find that the difference in size is considerable when compared to steel string guitars? i'm mostly an electric guitarist, and i have a steel string Taylor as well. it just seems that the parlor size works better for the "classical" playing position than a larger body would.

[Jeremy3]

do you find that the difference in size is considerable when compared to steel string guitars? i'm mostly an electric guitarist, and i have a steel string Taylor as well. it just seems that the parlor size works better for the "classical" playing position than a larger body would.

The classical playing position has changed over the years. Back when classical players used 'parlor' shape guitars, pre 20th century, the position was much different than what people now refer to as the classical playing position.

Here, I scanned a page from the Aguado method.

I'm sure parlor guitars would work better for that playing position. However, the larger body was designed with the modern playing position in mind. Parlor guitars still work in the modern playing position, but I can't say if they are more comfortable.

My point is, I recommend the Etude over the Motif. The Etude will produce a sound more similar to the classical guitar sound you are familiar with. I can't name one famous classical guitarist off the top of my head that uses a parlor guitar, not including the pre 20th century guitarists such as Sor, Giuliani, Aguado, Carcassi, etc.

[expertune]

 

do you find that the difference in size is considerable when compared to steel string guitars? i'm mostly an electric guitarist, and i have a steel string Taylor as well. it just seems that the parlor size works better for the "classical" playing position than a larger body would.

 

 

 

If you are a serious classical player, always have a stool under your left foot and play like a real classical guitarist, standard/full size body should be no problem. I used to play like that, so I have a full size classical guitar as well. Now most of the time I would hold my guitar and sit in front of a computer, parlor size fits better. Anyway, if you want to play classical seriously or solo on stage, you should have a full size one.

 

Full size classical guitar is smaller than dreadnought guitar.

[Help!I'maRock!]

The classical playing position has changed over the years. Back when classical players used 'parlor' shape guitars, pre 20th century, the position was much different than what people now refer to as the classical playing position. Here, I scanned a page from the Aguado method. I'm sure parlor guitars would work better for that playing position. However, the larger body was designed with the modern playing position in mind. Parlor guitars still work in the modern playing position, but I can't say if they are more comfortable. My point is, I recommend the Etude over the Motif. The Etude will produce a sound more similar to the classical guitar sound you are familiar with. I can't name one famous classical guitarist off the top of my head that uses a parlor guitar, not including the pre 20th century guitarists such as Sor, Giuliani, Aguado, Carcassi, etc.

another very informative post.

i'm a bit ashamed to admit that i'm not really familiar with the "classical guitar sound". but after seeing the illustration i'm inclined to agree with you about the Etude over the Motif. i think that if i get the Motif, i'll be more inclined to play it like a steel string, because of the similarity in playing position.

though, now i'm more inclined to go with the cheapo Yamaha. go figure.

[expertune]

The classical playing position has changed over the years. Back when classical players used 'parlor' shape guitars, pre 20th century, the position was much different than what people now refer to as the classical playing position. Here, I scanned a page from the Aguado method. I'm sure parlor guitars would work better for that playing position. However, the larger body was designed with the modern playing position in mind. Parlor guitars still work in the modern playing position, but I can't say if they are more comfortable. My point is, I recommend the Etude over the Motif. The Etude will produce a sound more similar to the classical guitar sound you are familiar with. I can't name one famous classical guitarist off the top of my head that uses a parlor guitar, not including the pre 20th century guitarists such as Sor, Giuliani, Aguado, Carcassi, etc.

 

I have never seen a classical master playing a parlor size guitar in MTVs. To me, Motif is very good for fooling around in the house. It sounds not bad at all. I even soloed with it on stage once.

[expertune]

another very informative post. i'm a bit ashamed to admit that i'm not really familiar with the "classical guitar sound". but after seeing the illustration i'm inclined to agree with you about the Etude over the Motif. i think that if i get the Motif, i'll be more inclined to play it like a steel string, because of the similarity in playing position. though, now i'm more inclined to go with the cheapo Yamaha. go figure.

 

At least buy one with solid top.

[Help!I'maRock!]

Full size classical guitar is smaller than dreadnought guitar.

 

 

my Taylor is a 414ce, which is "auditorium" sized. dreadnaughts are too big.

[Help!I'maRock!]

At least buy one with solid top.

absolutely

[Stackabones]

I've played a couple of La Patrie Etudes ... great guitars imo. Easy buy. You can't go wrong with Yammie as well, but the La Patrie gits feel and sound great.

[Jeremy3]

You won't truly be happy with your purchase if you don't go for the one you really want. If you want the motif, get it, but I can't say how well it would work with the modern playing position, the technique, and how it would sound. Perhaps you can use your steel string acoustic just to get familiar with the sitting+hand position, and then try out the etude and motif (or guitars with the same/similar shape) at a store and see which you find more comfortable and which one you think sounds better.

[Help!I'maRock!]

You won't truly be happy with your purchase if you don't go for the one you really want. If you want the motif, get it, but I can't say how well it would work with the modern playing position, the technique, and how it would sound. Perhaps you can use your steel string acoustic just to get familiar with the sitting+hand position, and then try out the etude and motif (or guitars with the same/similar shape) at a store and see which you find more comfortable and which one you think sounds better.

 

 

that's what it really comes down to. there are actually very few retailers that carry LaSiDo guitars in NYC, and i'll have to decide from their stock.

 

what do you guys think of nylon stringed guitars with cutaways? just curious.

[LaurentB]

Slightly off-topic with regard to the playing position: I've been taught the classical playing position and have been playing like that for a long time, but gradually switched to holding the guitar on the right knee instead because that was easier when sitting behind the computer playing. Then I found that the guitar sounds better to me in that position than the classical one. I don't know if it really does itself, but it's position seems to project the sound better to my ear than it does when holding it in the classical position.

[Jeremy3]

Slightly off-topic with regard to the playing position: I've been taught the classical playing position and have been playing like that for a long time, but gradually switched to holding the guitar on the right knee instead because that was easier when sitting behind the computer playing. Then I found that the guitar sounds better to me in that position than the classical one. I don't know if it really does itself, but it's position seems to project the sound better to my ear than it does when holding it in the classical position.

 

 

I doubt it would sound any better, but I suppose it's possible that it projects better to your ear when playing like that. When playing in the classical position, ensure that the only contact the guitar makes with your body is at the lower part of the chest, the top of the left thigh, and the inner part of the right thigh, and try to make it so just the edges make contact. This will allow it to resonate as much as possible. I strongly recommend the classical playing position. When you reach the more advanced levels of playing, the classical position makes reaching notes in the higher positions much easier, and puts your right hand at a more comfortable playing angle.

[LaurentB]

I doubt it would sound any better, but I suppose it's possible that it projects better to your ear when playing like that. When playing in the classical position, ensure that the only contact the guitar makes with your body is at the lower part of the chest, the top of the left thigh, and the inner part of the right thigh, and try to make it so just the edges make contact. This will allow it to resonate as much as possible. I strongly recommend the classical playing position. When you reach the more advanced levels of playing, the classical position makes reaching notes in the higher positions much easier, and puts your right hand at a more comfortable playing angle.

 

 

Ok, that's useful advice. Well, I used to find it easier indeed to play in the classical position when playing classical pieces, and those were of somewhat advanced level (it depends on what you'd call advanced level I suppose), it definitely gives more stability. But over the years I've grown accustomed to both positions and can play equally well in both, I think.

[Help!I'maRock!]

When you reach the more advanced levels of playing, the classical position makes reaching notes in the higher positions much easier.

 

 

wouldn't a cutaway help with this?

[Jeremy3]

wouldn't a cutaway help with this?

 

 

Of course. A cutaway is a bit of a trade-off, you can play more easily in the higher positions, but you'll lose some resonance. I've never tried one, so I probably can't say anything about them that you don't already know.

[Help!I'maRock!]

Of course. A cutaway is a bit of a trade-off, you can play more easily in the higher positions, but you'll lose some resonance. I've never tried one, so I probably can't say anything about them that you don't already know.

 

 

the loss of resonance is probably more pronounced in nylon stringed guitars than steel stringed ones. however, its not much more than cutting a giant hole in the side for electronics. the two together aren't very good though.

[expertune]

 

the loss of resonance is probably more pronounced in nylon stringed guitars than steel stringed ones. however, its not much more than cutting a giant hole in the side for electronics. the two together aren't very good though.

 

 

 

I have a nylon string cutaway with pickup, maybe I should call it crossover. It does not sound as good as standard one, a little bit thin.

[Jeremy3]

Here are some videos for you to compare:
Cutaway
Non-cutaway

Okay, that's quite an unfair comparison I suppose, as Robert Ross has terrible technique, and Andres Segovia did not. Segovia also used some of the finest guitars there have ever been.

Again, go for cutaway if you want one. I personally wouldn't want one unless the difference in sound is not too signicant. You decide if it's worth it.

Also, here's a tip: When learning the classical guitar, do not rush into pieces that are too advanced for you, or you'll end up sounding like Robert Ross (guy in the first video).