High End Room

[Dan Hall]

I just don't think I can ever buy another internet guitar. I doubt too that I'll ever buy another "it's just as good" guitar. By the time you get to the Gibson J-200 Montana Gold things begin to happen that you not only don't expect but you didn't even know existed. Same goes with the Martin lineup.

I hear so much about "it's an overpriced piece of junk" around here. Dammit man, drag that GAD-30 into the high end room and do a real comparison. If you can't play well enough, get somebody who can. There is a difference.

 

I'm not getting a Harley after all. I can rent a Road King for $100/day, or ferry one back to Ohio for $40/day and get my Hawgasms taken care of without actually owning one. I don't know what this means in particular but an heirloom guit might be in the offing. She'll breath a sigh of relief,... and probably wonder if I planned it that way.

 

Get yerself into a real High End Room somewhere quiet and listen. It changes perspective.

[Hudman]

I agree there is a difference, but the question you must ask yourself is it $2500 + better?

 

I think it's an interesting idea to listen to someone else play the guitar for you if you can not hear the difference, but that guitar will sound different when you play it. You will hear it from the players perspective and your playing style / technique will effect the tone.

 

I always remind myself that a good guitar player can make a cheap guitar sound good. They make a good guitar sound awesome. I have been exposed to some good guitar players that sound amazing on cheap guitars. It's a humbling experience everytime I run into it.

 

Personally, I don't hear a big difference in an $1750 - $2000 guitars and $4000 + guitars. That's just my opinion. Heck, I sold all of my guitars and now I'm down to a $125 Yamaha. Don't listen to me. I'm an idiot.

[Faheyfan]

I think the key words here are, get yourself somewhere quiet. I've posted this before and still believe the most overlooked factor when acoustic guitar shopping is ambient noise.

To my ear, the biggest differences between very good and wonderful guitars is in the subtleties. You often just can't hear the differences in a GC, for example. Not when one salesman is opening and closing the door to the high end room, another is answering the ringing phone 25 feet away, some guy is banging on a drum set on the other side of the store, the AC is on, traffic is going by and occasional feedback is heard from the Fender electric guitar starter pack some 14 year old is testing.

No wonder people walk out absolutely convinced that the $350 guitar sounded just as good or better than that $2500 one. And that doesn't even take into consideration the condition of the instrument or the strings.

[d03nut]

plus i think in the high end room you still can't hear the "high end" frequencies probably because of that damn humidifier....

 

ok, i'm not sure what i'm hearing in there but it sounds like a fan -and not the kind who would seek my autograph...

[sdelsolray]

 

I agree there is a difference, but the question you must ask yourself is it $2500 + better?

 

 

It's a good thing that you're asking the OP to ask himself. That's truly a personal and very subjective question, isn't it? After all, it depends on three issues which are completely player-specific: (1) How accomplished a player I am, (2) How good my ears are and (3) How much wealth I have.

[sdelsolray]

 

To my ear, the biggest differences between very good and wonderful guitars is in the subtleties. You often just can't hear the differences in a GC, for example.

 

 

Rarely are there any high end guitars at any GC. Some excellent ones, yes. But I've never seen any true high end instruments at a Guitar Center.

[DEP]

Dan, I totally agree with you, and I like the GAD 30. Great guitar for what it is, but having one doesn't lessen my GAS for say a Goodall TROM, it just postpones the inevitable a bit.

 

Being in SF, you have a few really good high end rooms to go to. The one's I'm most familiar with are Eric Schoenberg's shop in Tiburon and Gryphon in Palo Alto. If you get to travel at all, go to Santa Fe and visit High Desert Guitars. That place is heaven. Mostly custom guitars by some very well known luthiers, but also a nice selection of vintage Martins and Gibson's too. Good hunting, have fun, report back often.

[DEP]

THinking about it, if your consiering a high end guitar, you might want to go custom. Do yourself a favor and before you make any decisions go to the Healdsberg Guitar Festival this August 17-18. There will be many great builders there, and you might be surprised (in a good way) at the prices of some of them. Tim McKnight and John How especially are building some really great guitars at prices that are very competitive with more commercial makers. And, it's a great time to boot.

[Dan Hall]

THinking about it, if your consiering a high end guitar, you might want to go custom. Do yourself a favor and before you make any decisions go to the Healdsberg Guitar Festival this August 17-18. There will be many great builders there, and you might be surprised (in a good way) at the prices of some of them. Tim McKnight and John How especially are building some really great guitars at prices that are very competitive with more commercial makers. And, it's a great time to boot.

I'll be there. I've been talking with Jeff Sigurdson. On the other hand, he's a bunch cheaper than say Olson or even some of the semi production guys like Lowden. Anyway, I didn't start this to start a fight, just to say that I've got a very nice Larrivee but playing some $4-5K guitars like I have over the last couple of days makes me kind of wistful. I do want a Maple jumbo though. I can see something coming down on that score.

[Tony Burns]

Just because of a guitars price , it shouldnt be determined as a good instrument . 2500 + doesnt mean anything to me if its bought on price or what someone else thinks is good . I just bought a Larrivee for alot less than that , and im betting it can stand up to most of those so called high end guitars - and be ten times the guitar in the long run to those so called good sounding orient sweat shop models - Lets put them side by side ten years from now and lets see which ones still have straight necks and have gotten better in sound . Sorry if i offended anyone - just tired of people trying to ram down my throat these look alikes by tone deff people.

[Bernie P.]

Dan I may be able to help you out on the maple jumbo.Would you be interested in a brand new with warranty GAD JF30 in antique burst/upgraded HSC?

[Freeman Keller]

"I'm not getting a Harley after all." Dan, we gotta talk....

 

I noticed a little steering problem when I rode mine to work today, it darn near didn't make the turn into the parking lot. Just kept going up the highway out of town.....

 

However, back on topic. I would be very interested in following your thought process as you play different guitars and talk with different builders. Keep us in the loop

[DEP]

 

Oh well then, you might want to talk to John Walker:

http://www.johnwalkerguitars.com/JWG1/welcome.html

 

Worked with Ren Ferguson in Gibson's custom shop and reportedly makes a better Gibson than Gibson. There are mp3's of all of his standard models on his site. He doesn't include a jumbo as standard, but I would bet he could make you a nice one.

 

You might also look for a used maple J100 (new ones are Bubinga, but then you knew that). Much less expensive than the J200 and just as good. I saw a NOS one recently on evilbay, if you aren't adverse to going that route, that had a full body sunburst finish that was just gorgeous.

 

For the folks like Tony Burns, agreed that price is no measure of a good, or even a great, guitar. We're truly lucky to be living in a time when there's plenty of wonderful choices in all price ranges. Pretty much everyone can find something terrific and affordable these days. It's all good.

 

Having said that though, imo a custom made guitar that fits your hand like a glove and plays like, as they say, butter, and has a sound to bring tears to your eyes, is in a league of its own. Not all custom guitars are that great, and not all are worth the exhorbitant prices being asked. The law of diminishing returns does apply here, I think. Still, find a John How or a TIm McKNight who have the talent to make exactly what your looking for or better than you ever dreamed, and at a price competitive with say an HD28vs and you've got something really special.

[Etienne Rambert]

Dan Hall, "Last of the World's* Great Human Beings" wrote:

 

 

"....Dammit man, drag that GAD-30 into the high end room and do a real comparison. If you can't play well enough, get somebody who can. There is a difference....Get yerself into a real High End Room somewhere quiet and listen. It changes perspective."

 

__________________

(*Forgot the apostrophe Dan.)

 

Agreed. There is a difference. My $350 Maple dread sounds better in a recording studio than any Taylor, Gibson or Collings** I've ever played. It sounds much better than the last Guild D-50 I played in Lower Manhattan about 4 years ago too.

 

Dammit!

 

Who in the @*#! do I think I am anyway? I should have spent the money and kept my mouth shut. I should have duck-taped my ears too.

 

It was another one of life's missed opportunities, AFAIC. I could have sold one of those high-end guitars over here for a big mark-up*** and bought four or five local ones that sound better.

 

**Never was too impressed with the sound of any of the Martins I've played.

 

***Assuming it didn't get stolen first.

[bransonb]

 

Oh well then, you might want to talk to John Walker: http://www.johnwalkerguitars.com/JWG1/welcome.html Worked with Ren Ferguson in Gibson's custom shop and reportedly makes a better Gibson than Gibson.

 

 

Nice tip for those of us who are fans of Gibson designs! Thanks, DEP. Would love to try out his slopes. From the photos I'd say he's certainly got his sunburst down.

 

While there are obviously many builders offering their takes on Martin designs, this is the first Gibson based builder I've ever seen. Are there others?

[drnihili]

Eeesh, such vitriol over a simple issue.

 

Sure there's a difference between good guitars and high end guitars. Just the same as there's a difference between good whiskey and great whiskey, good cars and high end cars, etc. etc. etc. Hell, I was looking at buying some fish for our pond and came across Koi selling for over $10k.

 

As has already been pointed out, the question is whether a given individual finds the difference to be worth the cost. There's a host of reasons why they may or may not. It may even be that some people actually prefer the lower end product for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with cost. The important thing to keep in mind is that whatever objective differences there may be in sound, the question of whether an expensive guitar is worth its price comes down to the values of the particular buyer. Not everyone will prefer the sound of the higher end product, even if they can hear the difference.

 

There is no objective fact of what a guitar is worth other than what people are willing to pay for it, and that depends almost entirely on the subjective values of the buyer. Some people apparently feel that certain kinds of carp are worth the price of a good used car. In that context it's hardly surprising that some other people feel the same way about certain kinds of guitars.

[Freeman Keller]

 

Eeesh, such vitriol over a simple issue.

 

 

Times like this I like to get the scooter out and take a ride. Wanna borrow the bike, Dan? Wind in the face blows out a lot of cobwebs.

[Dan Hall]

 

Times like this I like to get the scooter out and take a ride. Wanna borrow the bike, Dan? Wind in the face blows out a lot of cobwebs.

Thanks Freeman and drnihili. One must surely keep one's perspective. The only reason I'm here is to hang around with a better class of people. My dogs think I'm great.

 

Previous post deleted.

[guit30]

Hey, Let's chill they are just guitars, Everyone has their view and a different pocketbook

Jim

:wave:

[DEP]

Nice tip for those of us who are fans of Gibson designs! Thanks, DEP. Would love to try out his slopes. From the photos I'd say he's certainly got his sunburst down. While there are obviously many builders offering their takes on Martin designs, this is the first Gibson based builder I've ever seen. Are there others?

 

Not many, that's for sure. The only two, other than Walker, that I'm aware of are Kevin Kopp and John Burkett. Of the three, Walker is the most accessible and reputable. Kopp, like Walker a refugee of Gibson's custom shop (and like Walker living in Montana), doesn't seem to have a website, at least that I can find (if anyone does manage to find one, please let me know, I'd be very interested). His guitars are available at Greg Boyd's:

 

http://gregboyd.com/instruments.html?family=Guitars&sound=Acoustic&maker=Kevin%20Kopp

 

Burkett, who lives somewhere in Florida, is even more elusive than Kopp and also doesn't have a website, and no dealers that I can find. But, I've heard glowing reviews of a supposedly stellar take on an 1950's J185 that he made (my dream guitar), and a J35. Haven't been able to track him down though.

 

That's pretty much it, as far as I know. There are of course builders making replicas of particular models, mostly LOO's. John Greven is the best known (makes an LOO), and probably the most successful, at capturing the 1930's Gibson sound as well as the vibe. But, mostly, Greven specializes in Martin replicas. Many others, including David Flammang, also do a take on the LOO, but in the process clean it up and make it pretty. The result ends up sounding more like a Martin than a Gibson. Not that these aren't great guitars (Flammang especially), it's just that these builders seem like they can't resist improving on something that doesn't need fixing.

 

Santa Cruz for instance does a Vintage Southerner. I have one, a wonderful guitar, but frankly I prefer my J45. To be fair, the version I have is maple and not a hog back, so who knows, maybe their hog version is closer to the vintage J45. SC also just came out with a Roy Smeck version. I haven't heard it and don't know how it compares to the original. But, I would love to find out. And that ends my report from the Gibson front.

[Dan Hall]

Not many, . And that ends my report from the Gibson front.

That's all super stuff Dep. I for one am greatful you've joined our little bit of madness here. Welcome.

 

Maybe you can shed some light on another Gibbo question. What year did they put that awful adjustable saddle on the acoustics? Is there a fix that will not permanently alter the guitar? I've thought about gluing a piece of rosewood in the slot with a regular saddle. Maybe just a monster bone saddle? Without everything resting on the screws? In other words putting it back to the way it wasn't broke before. I think there was some sort of steel bar put in the neck joint about the same time that transformed those guitars into dead plunkers too. Do you know what I'm getting at and when it happened? In other words, working backwards, when does the holy grail begin for models such as J-160E, J45, J-100, J-200, J-185 etc.

 

It's my thread so go wherever you want man.

[Freeman Keller]

Dan, does this help?

 

http://www.provide.net/~cfh/gibson.html

[Dan Hall]

Dan, does this help? http://www.provide.net/~cfh/gibson.html

Thanks. I got it bookmarked. The J-160E is plywood! Probably still ok for slide but not at those prices.

[Faheyfan]

I have two guitars made by modern builders which are based on classic Gibson designs. One, as mentioned earlier, was made by David Flammang. It's a take on a Gibson L-1, more commonly known as the Robert Johnson guitar. It's his model EL in mahogany and red spruce. Definitely prettied up.

 

The other is a modern take on a Nick Lucas made by Bill Bonanzinga. A 00 maple/ German spruce, sightly deeper than the original to increase the bass, slightly oversize nut. Beautiful guitar, wonderful to play and listen to. About the same price custom made to your specs as a new HD-28. Definitely less than, say, a Collings. Believe you can see Bill's work on Wes Houston's website. He does a number of guitars based on pre-war Gibsons.

[WaveRay]

Dan, I agree with you. I can tell when I am in the presense of a fine instrument. I can't explain it, but I can tell. My Martins are both very fine guitars but, I've play a lot of Martins that weren't exceptional. I've also played a lot of budget guitars and some Larries and things like that. There are impressive ones and some that aren't. The price, I believe jumps expodentially the higher the price bracket. This has all been discussed before. I will not, however, think somebody is tone deaf, or stupid for thinking that a $350. guitar is every bit as good as a $3000. guitar. They can think what they want. I personally can't understand why somebody would spend $18,000.00 on a Harley. That doesn't make any sense to me. Sorry.