Carbon Fiber Acoustic Guitars

[Elliss]

Hi - This is Ellis Seal, the engineer that left Lockheed in 1998 to start Composite Acoustics

 

While I love great acoustic guitars, I am more of an engineer than a guitar guy - I get my kicks out of providing guitarists the best sounding, best playing, best looking, most carefree instruments on the planet, at an affordable price, and make them in the USA.

 

I want to challenge the guitar community to try our guitars.

 

Since we started, we have not stopped working to provide the world's best guitars to the guitar buying public.

 

We are making our guitars out of the same high performance materials used in spacecraft and fighter aircraft, as opposed to wood. Carbon fiber materials and manufacturing methods are typically orders of magnitude higher than wood. Others have attempted to make all carbon fiber guitars for decades, never reaching a competitive price point.

 

The amazing thing is that we can supply you a high tech guitar with materials that aren't affected by temperature and humidity, won't warp or bow over time, have consistent, unchanging action, and have incredible tone and balance on all strings up and down the neck, sound quality exceeding that of almost all wooden guitars for less than you would pay for an American made wood guitar with Mahogany or Indian rosewood back and sides.

 

The guitar community is starting to see the potential of our technology. See magazine reviews @ http://www.compositeacoustics.com/press.html - Also see some of the many artists playing our guitars at http://www.myspace.com/caguitars

 

And for the question everybody wants to know, do our guitars sound like wooden guitars? If you hear one blindfolded or on a recording (which many of you have and don't know it), you will not ever think that a Composite Acoustics guitar is not wood.

 

If you do side by side comparisons, our guitars do not sound exactly like wood - we typically have better string to string balance so the overall impression of the tone is slightly different - but tonal comparisons are a personal decision for which every individual will have a different opinion. Some will never consider that anything can compare with wood, however that overwhelming majority will say our guitars have great acoustic tone.

 

There will always be a place for great wooden acoustic guitars - there is also a rapidly growing place for carbon fiber guitars.

 

I want to thank those of you who have opened your minds and considered our guitars, and especially want to thank those who have purchased our guitars.

 

Ellis

[MBWendel]

Hello, Mr. Seal. Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I have played your instruments out at Mak'n Music in Chicago. Although I still have some reservations, I think that they are definitely deserving of attention. Also, I think you may want to try to get a few pieces into The Guitar Works in Evanston, IL. In my mind, that is one of the two top shops for acoustic players around the city - Burgouis (sp?), Santa Cruz, H&D, Goodall, etc.

 

Personally, I thought that they did have a good tone. My main reservation is what everyone else will say, I suspect. After you sit with this thing for 100 hours, what happens? While not everyone agree's, I'm a firm believer in the theory that the top starts to break in and "knows your playing" after awhile. Do your guitars open up after awhile?

 

For me, a 00/Parlor CA would fit right in with my needs. A good sounding travel guitar that can accept numerous tunings with little neck issues and is much less troubled by heat and cold or banging around.

 

Just my opinion. Thanks for bringing this up.

[riffmeister]

Trees or fossil fuels??????

 

(I'm old-fashioned and like trees)

 

.

[OldGuitarPlayer]

Hi there,

 

I posted this question in the other thread about your guitars.

My question is this: Why do these guitars always come either in black or some other solid colour?

 

Is it possible to make a composite guitar that has the look and feel of real wood and be finished in a "natural" colour? I mean...even though it's made of carbon fibre it still looks like a wooden guitar...

 

...just curous..

 

OGP

[Elliss]

Thanks for the reply. As for the breaking in theory, wood can and will move with time, slowly deforming to re-distribute stresses in the top - however, this may or may not be good, and in the long run, will ultimately be bad. My belief is that with a wooden guitar it is a crap shoot whether tone improves or gets worse as the guitar deforms over time, if your are in humidity over 40 - 50%, it will probably get worse. I think that there is a lot of un-scientific lore associated with wooden guitars - people hear what they think they will hear. Very discriminating tone memory for most people has a very short time duration - lasting minutes rather than years

 

We make a great sounding guitar that will sound great forever. I have bought wooden guitars expecting them to "open up", and it never happened. Why take the risk - buy a great sounding guitar that is going to stay that way.

[lndianScout]

are you making electrics out of the same composit materials?

 

or plan too?

[Cripes]

There is one facet of your guitars that reigns supreme over wood guitars is the capability of high-tension alternate tunings, such as E and A tunings, without the fear of imposing excessive compression loads across the top. The work-around with wooden guitars requires dropping down a full step or capo'ing 2 frets.

 

Though I also like trees, as also mentioned above, and keep my eye turned to the beauty of a finely made all wood guitar I'm not so old fashioned that I will mentally block out good sound when I hear it. I play a cutaway and to most traditionalists that's a taboo. Guess I'm a rogue. I will be on the look-out for your product and give them a try.

[OldGuitarPlayer]

Yes...I understand that wood is certainly not the best material to build guitars with compared to carbon fibre in the longrun...but...I like the look of natural wood. If you could make a carbon fibre guitar that looked just like a natural wood guitar that would have all the advatages of the carbon fibre etc I certainly would seriously look into buying one. I just don't care for solid colour acoustic guitars

 

OGP

[Cripes]

Yes...I understand that wood is certainly not the best material to build guitars with compared to carbon fibre in the longrun...but...I like the look of natural wood. If you could make a carbon fibre guitar that looked just like a natural wood guitar that would have all the advatages of the carbon fibre etc I certainly would seriously look into buying one. I just don't care for solid colour acoustic guitars OGP

 

I don't know about you OGP but the first thing that comes to my mind is plastic photo-shopped wood-grain dashboards or counter-tops and that is not something that speaks to me. That would be the best they could offer in composites short of laminating the carbon fiber with the usual tonewoods and thereby defeating the purpose of avoiding the use of wood altogether. I'm pretty sure the sound would be extremely attenuated as well.

 

I played an Adamas a while back and thought it had a pretty darn good sound. But, that carbon fiber look of the top just didn't get it.

[jd-drafter]

elliss-

 

very nice work- have you ever considered integrating an aluminum body with a carbon fiber neck? my father, also an engineer has been building aluminum bodied guitars for about 10 years now and with my help is starting to get some more orders for his unique instruments. like your's they are very enviromentally immune. here is a clip or 2...

 

2nd generation unit- setup for slide use.

 

 

1st generation unit fingerstyle

 

 

lately he has been expressing a desire to find a source for 'bolt on' carbon fiber necks. couild you be that source? if you see any possibilities we would love to talk it over. can i reach you from the CA website? you could contact my dad directlu at edd@eddowling.com if you like.

 

thanks and continued good luck-

[rhat]

[quote=Cripes

 

I played an Adamas a while back and thought it had a pretty darn good sound. But, that carbon fiber look of the top just didn't get it.

 

 

I have a friend that plays an adamas 12 string. dont kid yourself ,,, it is not a stable guitar. The top on it is so deformed you can see it when he is on stage. He has since switched to a Takimini. He has been an ovation player for years ,,,, the sound is great ,, but since he does play 12 strings they just dont hold up that well. Time will tell how the new tak will hold up to the demands of outdoor shows, high humidity , and the heat. rat

[brahmz118]

 

I don't know about you OGP but the first thing that comes to my mind is plastic photo-shopped wood-grain dashboards or counter-tops and that is not something that speaks to me. That would be the best they could offer in composites short of laminating the carbon fiber with the usual tonewoods and thereby defeating the purpose of avoiding the use of wood altogether. I'm pretty sure the sound would be extremely attenuated as well.

 

 

That's a good point. When I spoke with a builder about 'imitating' the finish on a Strad cello, he said he could do it, though he never tried before. I started to get nervous -- I didn't want him to fake it with paint and ink. I can't imagine being happy with that look. It's like that body paint shading that makes you look like you have firm abs.

[brahmz118]

 

There is one facet of your guitars that reigns supreme over wood guitars is the capability of high-tension alternate tunings, such as E and A tunings, without the fear of imposing excessive compression loads across the top. The work-around with wooden guitars requires dropping down a full step or capo'ing 2 frets.

 

 

I believe CAs and RainSongs are still prone to having the bridge come off under higher tensions. I don't know if the top would be damaged, though it probably won't come close to splintering like wood.

 

Emerald solves this problem by making the bridge and body (and neck) one continuous piece. I wonder if the same strategy would work with wood (at least the bridge and top). I've seen it done on a ukulele.

[marsguitars]

Hi Ellis, it's interesting to hear about your hi-tech guitars.

 

How does your material & construction compare to the Ovations that were so revolutionary in the 80's? From memory, I think that Ovations were great for projection of sound, but a little harsh and lacking some of the subtleties of old-fashioned wooden guitars. Were they glass-fibre? They were very popular for a while, but I don't hear much about them these days...

 

And a dumb question (maybe), but...Are your necks still made of wood?

[Elliss]

 

I have a friend that plays an adamas 12 string. dont kid yourself ,,, it is not a stable guitar. The top on it is so deformed you can see it when he is on stage. He has since switched to a Takimini. He has been an ovation player for years ,,,, the sound is great ,, but since he does play 12 strings they just dont hold up that well. Time will tell how the new tak will hold up to the demands of outdoor shows, high humidity , and the heat. rat

 

 

The adamas top uses two pieces of thin carbon on either side of a wood core - over time, the shear stresses in the wood core combined with the inevitable moisture uptake can cause the wood to deform, creating more top deflection as you observed.

 

Composite Acoustics guitars don't have any wood in them - therefore, they don't have this problem.

 

The other potential issue is that the guitar just wasn't designed properly for the additional tension of 12 strings.

[Elliss]

 

Hi Ellis, it's interesting to hear about your hi-tech guitars. How does your material & construction compare to the Ovations that were so revolutionary in the 80's? From memory, I think that Ovations were great for projection of sound, but a little harsh and lacking some of the subtleties of old-fashioned wooden guitars. Were they glass-fibre? They were very popular for a while, but I don't hear much about them these days... And a dumb question (maybe), but...Are your necks still made of wood?

 

 

First off, from the day I started thinking about carbon fiber acoustic guitars, tone was the number one consideration. The patented "Acoustic Tailoring" technology allows us to manipulate tone by design features and specific choice of materials. While tone is subjective, I have heard no one describe our guitars as harsh - people are surprised by the warmth and depth of tone, and by the clarity and balance of our instruments.

 

Unlike the Ovations, which are basically a wooden guitar with fiberglass back and sides, or Adamas, which uses a fiberglass or plastic bowl, wooden neck, and a top made of two pieces of thin carbon on either side of a wood core, our guitars are 100% carbon fiber composite construction.

[rhat]

 

The adamas top uses two pieces of thin carbon on either side of a wood core - over time, the shear stresses in the wood core combined with the inevitable moisture uptake can cause the wood to deform, creating more top deflection as you observed. Composite Acoustics guitars don't have any wood in them - therefore, they don't have this problem. The other potential issue is that the guitar just wasn't designed properly for the additional tension of 12 strings.

 

 

 

 

Yup 12 strings are a bitch.....If you have a 12 string design you need to have smoke tested under the harshest conditions ,,Let me know. I will give you this guys name. I assure you that his duo is one that is more than worthy of a sponsorship. rat

[Elliss]

There have been a few comments about the look of our guitars. Wooden stringed instruments have been around and have changed little for hundreds of years - people for centuries have a consistent picture of what a stringed instrument should look like - some people just like wood. Some people still choose not have automobiles, telephones, or electricity - some people still use a slide rule - some people don't have a computer or use the internet - not everyone embraces change - and that's O.K.

 

As for the visual appearence of our guitars, we understand there are many different tastes. If you browse through our site @ www.compositeacoustics.com , you will see we are adding some exciting new looks and finishes - we even have and air-brushed wood look. We will continue to look at different ways to meet consumer desires for new visual appearances.

[Elliss]

 

Trees or fossil fuels?????? (I'm old-fashioned and like trees) .

 

 

We like trees also. We would like to see the rain forrests preserved and the old growth spruce forrests used sparingly. No trees are destroyed in producing our guitars.

 

Now if you try to argue the "carbon footprint" of our guitars vs. wood, there is significant fossil fuel used in the logging and sawmill operations for trees, and once a tree is cut, it can't continue to remove carbon dioxide from the air. Fossil fuels are also used to make carbon fiber and the resins we use. I honestly don't know which has less of a net "carbon footprint"

 

I do know this, once a rainforest is destroyed, it is gone. Once old growth spruce forrests are destroyed, it takes hundreds of years to re-grow them, which never happens because replanted trees are harvested before they get hundreds of years old.

[guitarist21]

Just looked at some of the guitars on the website and saw the wood-looking finish. I think that if I wanted to get a composite guitar, I would want it to look like one. They don't look bad, really. They're actually kind of asthetically pleasing with tasteful rosettes and inlays and things. I'm not in the market for a guitar like this, but if I was I'm sure I'd be okay enough with the finish not to want it to look like wood. I might even venture out into the snakeskin look I saw there!

 

Ellen

[Elliss]

 

For me, a 00/Parlor CA would fit right in with my needs. A good sounding travel guitar that can accept numerous tunings with little neck issues and is much less troubled by heat and cold or banging around.

 

 

You are in luck. We have just finished the first prototypes of a travel size guitar that sounds unbelievable - like a guitar at least twice its size. The design is cool as well - like a mini version of our GX. It comes with our newly developed RT finish, which looks great and is very durable. We hope to have them in production later this year

[Verence]

The only models I've seen were around $2500.

 

If you had some budget models around $500 I would definitely buy one, if only because I'd never have to worry about humidity.

[johnkline]

We are making our guitars out of the same high performance materials used in spacecraft and fighter aircraft, as opposed to wood. Carbon fiber materials and manufacturing methods are typically orders of magnitude higher than wood. Others have attempted to make all carbon fiber guitars for decades, never reaching a competitive price point.

 

Space Shuttle Endeavor could've used one of these as a backup..

 

I didn't see any prices on the website, and really for people to take a leap of faith, it would have to be pretty low. Even if the carbon guitar sounds just like some well know acoustic, your not going to convince many people that they can buy either a guitar with solid wood for say 2,000 dollars that will appreciate in value as it gets older versus a new technology for the same price without knowing how well it will really hold up over time. Reminds me of these new golf drivers coming out that have square heads. It still has to be aesthetically pleasing to the buyer's eye even if it performs well.

 

How long has Ovation been making guitars and the majority of musicians don't like them! But you don't have to convice me, you'll have to convice the professional musicians to use them...

[Elliss]

Space Shuttle Endeavor could've used one of these as a backup.. I didn't see any prices on the website, and really for people to take a leap of faith, it would have to be pretty low. Even if the carbon guitar sounds just like some well know acoustic, your not going to convince many people that they can buy either a guitar with solid wood for say 2,000 dollars that will appreciate in value as it gets older versus a new technology for the same price without knowing how well it will really hold up over time. Reminds me of these new golf drivers coming out that have square heads. It still has to be aesthetically pleasing to the buyer's eye even if it performs well. How long has Ovation been making guitars and the majority of musicians don't like them! But you don't have to convice me, you'll have to convice the professional musicians to use them...

 

I don't see many used acoustics selling for more than new ones, unless they are very expensive limited editions or very old. The fact is, almost any new acoustic guitar starts depreciating the day you buy it - and it likely either won't stay in good condition or its owner won't live long enough to see it appreciate.

 

We will continue to focus on making guitars that look, sound and play fantastic - in the end, that is why musicians will use them.

[rhat]

 

I don't see many used acoustics selling for more than new ones, unless they are very expensive limited editions or very old. The fact is, almost any new acoustic guitar starts depreciating the day you buy it - and it likely either won't stay in good condition or its owner won't live long enough to see it appreciate. We will continue to focus on making guitars that look, sound and play fantastic - in the end, that is why musicians will use them.

 

 

 

It may be a harder nut to crack than you might think. Wood has a certain romance about it ,, that you just wont get with a guitar poured out of a bucket. While it may all be in the musicans head ,, that head is connected to their wallet. I can see the advantage of composite construction ...but I also understand tradition. Build a bullet proof 12 string....that sounds great and will hold up. rat