weird guitar tone

[oilandwater]

i play a taylor 314ce and right now i have martin 80/20 bronze medium strings. when i strum chords, i am getting a weird tone that sounds like i have some sort of slight delay effect on my guitar. this is happening even when i'm not plugged into an amp. has anyone ever heard of anything like this? is the problem related to my strings? it seems to be more noticeable with new strings, but i think the sound is always there. any thoughts on this subject would be appreciated. thanks.

[eflat]

Wow, never heard of that - would love to hear it though! Sounds like it could be seen as a blessing as well as a curse, have you checked that the guitar is structurally sound?

[oilandwater]

as far as structurally sound, what/where should i look?

[eflat]

Well I'm certainly no expert, but I would check that there's just one space inside your guitar, i.e there's not another compartment that could be producing the delay effect.

 

It would probably be noticeable just from looking inside, don't know how it could have happened though!

 

Sorry but thats all I can think of, hopefully by bumping this someone else who knows more will see it.

[guitarist21]

If you could post a sound/video clip of just you playing your guitar, that would be really helpful. As it is, I'm not really sure what kind of noise you're talking about.

 

Ellen

[happy-man]

Did you just put on the strings? I put some Martin Marquis 80/20 Bronze on my parlor (because I got them for free), and they sure made a "jangly" racket when I strummed them. They definitedly toned down in a day or two.

 

Scott O

[dhoenisch]

I wonder if a string is pinched in the nut. Are you 100% positive that all of the strings are in the correct order? I screwed up once and reversed strings 4 and 5 (I still swear they were in the wrong packages ), and what should have been string 4 was making a pinging noise. It stopped once I reversed the strings. Not sure if what you're hearing is what I just described, but it may be worth a look.

 

Dan

[oilandwater]

-i looked inside the body and everything seemed normal.

-i checked the strings and they are on in the right order.

-the strings are new. i usually use this same brand of strings and my guitar has always had this same tone. it has never bothered me enough to think of changing the type of strings i use until now, because lately i've been trying to record some stuff and it just doesn't sound right.

 

has anyone else had probems with martin bronze strings? are they junk?

i would agree with happy man by saying it's a "jangly" sort of sound. i was going to say they had a "metallic" sound in my original post, but wasn't sure if that would make sense.

 

as for posting a sound clip, i have some audio of my guitar on my computer, but i don't know how to put it online. a quick run through would be helpful if someone has the time and wants to help.

 

thanks

[eflat]

Yeah clips would help. I think most people would just go to www.soundclick.com and upload from there, posting a link back here so we can listen.

[JasmineTea]

Betcha...it's the length of string between the nut and the tuners ringing. Put some cloth on there and it'll stop ringing.

[bjorn-fjord]

Lots of good suggestions here. I'll add an unlikely possible cause but one that I've never seen discussed here.

It's a rare occurance in a guitar, but it could be a wolf note that you're hearing. I have experienced this a couple of times in guitars and many times with bowed instruments.

 

Try humming into the soundhole of your guitar. Vary the pitch until you hit the note that makes the whole instrument vibrate. This note is the resonant frequency of the guitar. As the guitar ages and "opens up", its overall resonant frequency gets lower.

 

If this frequency matches the frequency of an open string, it can do some very strange things. Usually what happens is the note plays much louder than others and seems to sustain forever. It can "color" the entire sound of the instrument and interfere with the resonance of other frequencies. Often it will impart a weird vibrato kind of sound as the vibration of the guitar pulls the resonant frequency in and out of phase with the sound from the strings.

 

There isn't much that can be done to prevent this but often it will go away on its own after a while. Different strings might help. But I'm betting JT is correct with his advice.

Good luck.

[guitarist21]

 

There isn't much that can be done to prevent this but often it will go away on its own after a while.

 

 

This happened with the old upright bass that I played in high school. There wasn't really anything we could do about it. Only happened when I played the open G.

 

Oilandwater, is this "slight delay" only occuring on certain notes? Or is it on any given note? Again, a clip would be great if you could get one up here.

 

Ellen

[JasmineTea]

Bjorn, that's the best explanation of wolf notes I've seen in a long time. There's another thread or two I saw recently, yesterday-today, that involved "dead" notes on a newer Larrivee, and a wierd sounding open D. What I experienced lately was the guitar having notes accentuated by the room in which the guitar was being played. Open G, or any equivalent would ring louder than all other notes. I figured it out by playing the git outside.

 

But I have a question: When guitars are tap-tuned, are they tuned to certain notes? If so, what notes?

[Freeman Keller]

Interesting theory, B-F. Would tuning half a step sharp or flat eliminate it?

 

JT, what I can tell you about tap tuning (and I know that Bjorn can add a whole lot to this) is that different parts of the guitar are tuned to different notes - often one semi tone apart. If I recall the top and back of my 000 where like an F# and a G, and in his book Roger Siminoff says that Loar tuned every part of his mandolins (top, back, two tone bars and even the f-holes) to a different note. (side note - A was not 440 at that time so Loar's mandos aren't in tune with what we call "concert" but they still sound pretty good). Siminoff talks about "wolf tones" in his book too, but B-F's explaination helped me understand them.

 

Last question, would the wood aging cause a wolf tone to appear - that is as the guitar ages do you think it's resonant frequency changes?

 

If that baby has this kind of bad mojo maybe O&W needs to take it down to the Crossroads, sing RJ's "Hell Hound on my Trail" and scare that old wolf away.

[drnihili]

With regard to wolf notes. wouldn't they stop if you tune a half step low? should be easy to check that way.

[bjorn-fjord]

JT and FK,

 

I'm firmly in the Cumpiano camp when it comes to tap-tuning. Before assembly I do not try to tune any part of the guitar to a specific note because as soon as the parts are assembled that all goes out the window. For instance, if you tune a soundboard to a specific note, as soon as you glue the soundboard to the sides, the note changes to something else because its vibration is hindered by the support of the sides. A soundboard will invariable ring higher after assembly.

 

I tap tune for the simple purpose of determining whether or not a soundboard is adequately "loose" as opposed to "tight". I'm not looking for a particular note, I'm look for the right amount of flexibility. With experience this flexibility can be measured by how a soundboard vibrates when it is tapped rather than the particular frequency at which it vibrates. Sustain, is part of it, but the quality of the note, or lack thereof, is closer to what I'm talking about. When as soundboard is tapped it shouldn't produce a strong fundamental note. If it does, it's probably a little too "tight".

 

Avoiding undesirable results is more a matter of feel to me than science. Put it this way, I'm gradually learning what not to do. There are people that swear by tap-tuning to achieve a particular note. If it works for them then they should keep doing it. It doesn't work for me, but the methods I am developing are consistently getting me closer to where I want to be.

 

The wolf note thing is pretty rare in guitars because they usually seem to need quite a large degree of energy to reveal themselves. They're much more common in bowed instruments. I haven't had any wolf notes in any of my instruments so I don't do anything in particular to avoid them other than throw the odd virgin into the volcano out back.

[Cripes]

Never heard of that. Not sober, anyway.

 

I was talking with a guy recently and he said he puts heat shrink tubing on the tuners, shrinks it in place, opens up the holes for the strings to pass and then winds his strings up as he normally would. This is supposed to attenuate the string feedback between the nut and tuners. Sounds logical enough. I know heat shrink tubing is available at Radio Shack and Loews. If I had such feedback issues I might try it. He did say to shrink the tubing before the holes are put in because if done the other way around the holes would open up when the tubing started to shrink. He mentioned using a Bic lighter and turning the guitar sideways to direct the heat on the post.

 

I, for one, will stick with JT's method if I need to. I don't think I want to get a flame that close to the finish. I suppose one could make a heat shield to fit around the tuner but that seems like a lot of work.

[oilandwater]

well, i tried tuning down a 1/2 step, and i also tried putting the cloth around the strings between the nut and tuner. while i appreciate the advice, unfortunately they didn't help. so i have now created a myspace page for all of you to hear my problem. this page was created solely for the purpose of letting you all listen to my guitar, so when you visit the web address, the only thing going on will be a forty second clip of my guitar. here's the link:

 

www.myspace.com/oilandwatertonedemo

 

can anyone tell me why it has that "echo" effect? oh, and sorry for the flubbed note at the end. thanks again everyone.

[bjorn-fjord]

Weird. It sounds like chorus. Based on the recording, the issue sounds electronic but I'm guessing you hear this when the guitar is played without being plugged in to anything.

 

It would be helpful if you could play individual notes or chords on their own (not in the context of a song). Play the same note or chords multiple times. Let the notes ring for a couple seconds.

Also, it would help if you could answer the following:

Are you using a microphone or does the guitar have a pickup? How did you make the recording? When do you hear it? Which notes in particular? Open strings or fretted strings or both?

[oilandwater]

i recorded it using the pickup, but i tried using a mic and the results were the same. that clip was recorded using a direct box, plugged into a basic behringer mixer(model-eurorack ub1202). then i sent the line out into my computer and recorded using cooleditpro.

as far as when i hear it, i can tell you it's worse when i play chords, as opposed to individual notes, E chords seem to be the worst, but it's noticeable on all chords, regardless of if they're open on fretted.

although you can hear it when i'm just playing my guitar, the problem is worse when i try recording. the possibility of part of my problem being an electronic problem isn't out of the question. i've tweaked the knobs hoping to fix it, but the result is always the same. this led me to believe the problem was focused just in my guitar.

 

i will try posting another sound clip tonight. one with chords ringing.

[Qengho]

Sounds sitar-like, as though one of the bass strings is buzzing on a fret (or the saddle) somewhere. Are these strings a different gauge than usual?

 

Try fretting single notes on the first three frets of all strings and see if you can generated the buzz.

[Elliss]

Hey - this is Ellis with Composite Acoustics. I hate to break the news, but I think it is the guitar. To me, it sounds like a very stiff guitar that didn't get the best pieces of tone wood.

 

The sound of a guitar is made by the very complex response of the top and body of the guitar to string vibration - everything affects it, body shape, individual pieces of wood used, guitar design, finish, strings, nut, saddle, and on and on.

 

I don't hear anything in my experience that would suggest a problem, like fret buzz - I think it is just the way your guitar sounds - particularly in light of the thread comments posted so far.

 

With our carbon fiber gutiars, we can engineer a sound for a particualr guitar and repeat that sound very closely from guitar to guitar - you can hear some sound clips at our myspace page http://www.myspace.com/caguitars - the "Fuel" live acoustic performance in the radio station is pretty cool

 

However, strings can affect the tone of your guitar - I might try some warmer strings - like 85/15 bronze or silk and steel, and perhaps a light gage - it might cost you a few bucks, but it is worth it if you get a tone you like better. You might also try a bone saddle. I would expect only slight changes, but it may be enough to make you happier with the tone.

[johanan]

This Sounds like a conflict between timbers used in the top and back of the guitar and the amount of available air space. Unfortunately the problem is with your guitar.

I have recorded a lot of acoustic guitars and have only seen this problem once before. I would describe it as sounding more like chorus rather delay. It is very disconcerting and if I remember correctly we spent days changing mics and mic positions and strings but at the end of the day ....... it was the guitar. It was producing 2 slightly different frequencies that were slightly out of phase.

Taylors and Martins are not always what they are supposed to be.

I stopped using them years ago. I now use Gilet guitars. Click the link on my video tuition website.

JM

 

www.acousticfingerpicking.com

[oilandwater]

well, i guess it's time to face the music and accept the fact that there's little chance of fixing my problem. i've got a buddy who does a lot of recording and he's going to check out my guitar this weekend, but other than that i guess i'm out of options. if anyone else has any thoughts, let me know. if not, i just wanna say thanks for helping with the problem. i'll post an update if i do get it fixed does so everyone knows what happened. thanks.

[Qengho]

 

well, i guess it's time to face the music and accept the fact that there's little chance of fixing my problem

 

 

Please take it to a tech first and have him check the neck relief. You should rule out fret buzz before deciding it's "mismatched woods." As they say in the medical field, "When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras,", i.e., check the most likely things first.