Classical vs Folk position

[drnihili]

I think I understand most of the advantages of classical position. It places the fingers better over the string and makes it easier to access the fretboard. Also I find that I'm less prone to resting my forearm on the soundboard.

 

But there must be some advantages to the folk position (guitar resting on left leg). So far all I can think of is that it's a bit easier to get in and out of. I can see where it might have an advantage in a performance where one was singing and wanted to be able to adjust mikes and so forth in mid performance. But are there any playing advantages to folk position? Are there things that just work better that way?

[Freeman Keller]

I'm not a classical player but I've always felt that the rigid position was in part "classic" (that is the way we've always done it), and part because of the wider flatter fretboard (thus the position of the thumb in the middle of the back of the neck) combined with the strict assignment of string to fingers and the picking techique.

 

On the other hand, almost anything goes with "folk" technique - guitar on lap, either leg, guitar on strap, thumb over the neck, partial barres, fingerpicking/flatpicking/strumming with and without pick(s), pinkie anchored/pinkie floating...... A lot of it is very sloppy, but it works - I can't imagine a thumb wrap holding the git like Segovia did. I can't imagine playing bottleneck with my guitar on my left leg and a stool under my foot.

 

Maybe Stack or Riff or Dave or some of the other true classical players will chime in and talk about position - I'm just a sloppy old blues guy.

[Dave W.]

For me, the "classical" position is about stability. With the guitar resting on top of my right thigh, I have a hard time keeping the fingerboard steady if I take my hand off the neck. In the classical position, the guitar is supported at three points, like a tripod, and feels as if it were in a clamp. I prefer the OM size steel string because it fits this position much better than a dread.

Plus what Freeman said about hand position.

[riffmeister]

The guitar on the raised left thigh "classical" position with neck pointed up by about 45 degrees gives the left hand better access to the entire length of the fretboard, and also allows the left hand to be arched over the fretboard so you can play all those crazy counterpoint songs without fingers bumping into adjacent strings. That said, since I grew up playing "devil's music" in my formative years, I find that I can play many classical pieces "the other way". For certain pieces, though, it is definitely more cumbersome.

[slight-return]

I'm not a classical player but I've always felt that the rigid position was in part "classic" (that is the way we've always done it.

 

[DISCLAIMER - My 'native' style is classical guitar, as I talk about the 'theory' behind the position and techniques, I'm not implying that other techniques necessarilly lack any of these characteristics, rather I'm just talking about the classical technique]

 

 

I think classical gets kind of a bad rep as being "stuffy" and "rigid"...which is odd b/c I find the technique to be largely directed toward suppleness and fluidity.

 

As dave was mentioning, the position puts the guitar in a stable "reference position" and the hands aren't really tasked with supporting the instrument (again,not that other positions necessarilly lack this).

The geometry of the posture is designed to put you in a pretty "relaxed" position...wrist angles relatively neutral, etc

 

A lot of the stuff like 'strict' string assignments, etc are "best practices" -- some basic habits to get used to so that you don't wind up hitting a roadblock either a couple measures down the line or in other pieces that you might encounter.

 

It's not really that different than techniques we get other places -- bicycling, fencing, woodworking, BBQ...wherever

 

so a lot of the time it's not "Oh, we don't do that..."

 

it's more like

 

"ooh watch that dude, if you get used to doing it that way, you'll get the note there...but it makes it real hard to get over to this next bit"

 

sort of like leaning forward when you lunge in fencing (super common problem, it gets you another couple of inches, but you are off balance and it's hard to recover from it...so you get touched on the back )

 

or mashing in bicycling (and other super common one, oh it'll get ya there, but then you've "burned" the quads and now you are staring down the muzzle of that big hill or the final sprint)

 

So there's this body of technique that's developed to help with that stuff. The techniques (and instrument) sort of fit the idiom...some of the pieces can push on the mechanical limis of the instrument/user (some of the popular music wasn't originally written, specifically, for guitar, so the transcriptions can be challenging), the music can be contrapunctual (so greater independence of voices is helpful), etc

 

Though there is "recommended practices", that isn't to say there isn't occasion for extended technique...last tim I saw Parkening, he demonstrated how Segovia used to play with the "off side" of his thumb when he wanted a really huge tone (he demonstrated the "usual" technique and Segovia's and a gasp of shock rolled through the audience), some of those Foster transcriptions do weird stuff like barre across two frets, etc

[Simon76]

I like a more classical position because it's easier on my left wrist.

[Hudman]

I tend to play with the guitar on my right leg. I only use the left leg when I have something to prop my foot on. I feel equally comfortable either way when I can raise my left leg a bit.

[Amanda-Jane]

I don't feel comfortable with the guitar on my left leg..I tried it after I read a thread about it earlier.. not comfy-

The guitar resting on my right leg, and arm drapped over the top to the strings.. this is the most comfortable for me

[drnihili]

 

I don't feel comfortable with the guitar on my left leg..I tried it after I read a thread about it earlier.. not comfy- The guitar resting on my right leg, and arm drapped over the top to the strings.. this is the most comfortable for me

 

 

 

It's not really on your left leg, rather it's sort of nested down between them. It's more awkward to get in and out of, but I find it quite comfy once I'm there.

 

So, thus far we've heard about the advantage of the classical position, is there any technical advantage to folk? If not, why don't we see more of the really good acoustic players using classical?

[MattSkibaIsGOD]

 

I like a more classical position because it's easier on my left wrist.

 

 

Exactly my reasoning.

[Freeman Keller]

 

So, thus far we've heard about the advantage of the classical position, is there any technical advantage to folk?

 

 

The blues F chord. And string dampening behind the slide. Are two enough?

[drnihili]

 

The blues F chord. And string dampening behind the slide. Are two enough?

 

 

Plenty, but I'd appreciate it if you could explain them to me. Why is it that these are easier with the guitar on the right leg than the left? I'm afraid I've never played slide and don't know how to play a blues F chord, otherwise your answer might be obvious to me.

[Stackabones]

I play nylon string, but don't do much classical music on it. I usually sit like the gypsy jazzers ... guitar on my right thigh, right leg crossed over my left. Some of the Flamencos do it, as well as some of the Brazilians.

 

Recently, I saw a pic of a Brazilian guitarist who had the guitar on her right thigh and used a foot stool under her right foot to elevate her right thigh, which at first looked a bit odd (since I'd only seen the classical method of using the foot stool under the left foot). Then, I tried it. It's been a preferred position for the last few weeks.

[captain average]

folk:

bending's easier.

 

it's more natural and more convenient.

[the-good-way]

The blues F chord.

 

as in thumb-fretting? you can do that from a classical position no prob (I used to be into the old Happy Traum stuff with thumb-fretting and didn't have a problem from a classical pos), you just rotate into it

 

(check out the amt of thumb protrusion here)

 

 

 

And string dampening behind the slide. Are two enough?

 

not following you on why a classical pos would make that specific technique particularly difficult

 

 

I don't mean "this style is better" - I just mean I haven't found thumb-fretting or "flat-handing" (which, I *assume*, but am not real sure, is the hand posture you are looking to for string damping) technique to be problematic

 

 

FWIW - whee I find difference in technique with a folk type position (and personal results ma differ) is generally in right hand technique - specifically strumming where a folk player can want to come across the lower bout (instead of "over" the lower bout) of the instrument and employ a "swing-arm" (though often happening primarilly in the wrist) strumming motion

[garthman]

I find that it depends on which of my guitars I'm playing. For my steel string acoustics and Yamaha Pacifica electric (sorry), I rest the guitar on my right thigh. For my nylon string guitars, both classical and dreadnought, and my Les Paul electric (sorry again), most of the time I cross my left leg over my right and rest the guitar on my left thigh.

 

I suspect this is because I tend to use my steel string guitars for more folky / blues style songs and tend to hold the neck in my palm and use my thumb hooked over to play barre chords. I tend to play my nylon string guitars for Leonard Cohen songs and similar plus some traditional folk (using 5th chords etc) and hold the neck in a more "classical" way with my thumb behind the neck and using my index finger for barres.

 

For my electrics (very sorry), I think it's more to do with the weight and body shape - the Les Paul just feels "right" on my left thigh.

[d28andm1911a1]

I can play either way but I prefer right thigh/folk. I used to perform standing and now I sit but still get up every once in a while. Hard to change back in forth from classical.

[Freeman Keller]

 

Plenty, but I'd appreciate it if you could explain them to me. Why is it that these are easier with the guitar on the right leg than the left? I'm afraid I've never played slide and don't know how to play a blues F chord, otherwise your answer might be obvious to me.

 

 

That was partially tongue in cheek. The blues F chord was a reference to wrapping the thumb for the 6th string - I didn't think classical players did that until I saw that picture of the Master LOL. I would have a hard time doing that if I was holding the guitar more vertically (not to mention the wide fretboard). I do thumb wrap on my 12 strings holding them pretty much parallel to the floor.

 

And the reference to bottleneck is a little wonky too - most 'neckers play with the neck parallel to the floor, but Master Brozman does hold his at a steeper angle (and waves it around a lot). So I will retract my feeble joke.

 

However, when you refer to the "classical position" and "folk position" that would be much more than which leg you rest the guitar on. I think of a classical player with the neck at about 45 degrees, thumb in the middle of the back of the neck (unless it is Segovia playing a funky blues groove), the right hand arched with fingers poised over their strings (and absolutely no pinky anchor), and the guitar on the left leg which is resting on a foot stool.

 

Sorry, I'll shut up. I play with the guitar on my right knee, neck pointing straight out, pinky firmly anchored, broken wine bottle neck on my finger - but I can't tell you why.

[drnihili]

 

T However, when you refer to the "classical position" and "folk position" that would be much more than which leg you rest the guitar on. I think of a classical player with the neck at about 45 degrees, thumb in the middle of the back of the neck (unless it is Segovia playing a funky blues groove), the right hand arched with fingers poised over their strings (and absolutely no pinky anchor), and the guitar on the left leg which is resting on a foot stool.

 

 

Yeah, there's a lot more to classical technique than just where the guitar sits. But as a newb I'm mainly concerned with that part of it for the moment.

 

I don't really want to learn classical guitar, but I'm not interested in performing either. I am interested in making life easy for myself. Just trying to puzzle out whether to make it easier by making the fretboard more accessible, or to make it easier by making the guitar more accessible (easier to get in and out of position). If there were technical advantages, that would sway me toward folk, but it's sounding like it's more a matter of convenience.

[riffmeister]

left thigh allows easier access to the upper registers, right thigh allows easier access to the lower registers, neck angled up allows easier arching of the left hand fingers over the fretboard, neck angled more parallel to the ground allows easier access of the thumb to the fretboard.

 

and of course, the exact recipe depends also on the size of the guitar and the size and relative proportions of the player, so there isn't one recipe which works for everyone! best to experiment and see what works for you, your guitar, and your playing style.......

[drnihili]

 

left thigh allows easier access to the upper registers, right thigh allows easier access to the lower registers, neck angled up allows easier arching of the left hand fingers over the fretboard, neck angled more parallel to the ground allows easier access of the thumb to the fretboard. and of course, the exact recipe depends also on the size of the guitar and the size and relative proportions of the player, so there isn't one recipe which works for everyone! best to experiment and see what works for you, your guitar, and your playing style.......

 

 

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks.

[lauren]

I never really thought about this, have the guitar on my right thigh, but may experiemnt now. What fun, all these new positions to try out.

[Stackabones]

What fun, all these new positions to try out.

 

Yes, I am swooning.

[michaelferris]

The classical style sitting position facilitates the playing of the notes on the guitar using the left hand. It also makes it easier to distribute the weight of your hand on the fretboard, which saves a ton of energy when playing. A lot of times, you use the weight of your hand instead of muscles. This is needed for a lot of classical pieces. The normal way of sitting and playing is actually to facilitate singing and playing. Try to open up your diaphram sitting a typical classical position. It is VERY diffiult, as is playing a difficult classical piece without sitting there with your left foot up on a footstool.

[JasmineTea]

I'm wierd. Really. I play right handed. Folk position on the right leg. With a foot rest under my right foot.

 

I like that "weight of the hand" post.