Let's talk about Capo placement.

[MattSkibaIsGOD]

Hey everybody I have a question about Capos. Let's say you're trying to learn a song in standard tuning with no capo, but some of the notes are hard to reach for you. What do you do? Do you put your capo at the first fret and just move it up until you find the right key?

 

I find there are a handful of songs that I love that are easier to do with the guitar down two or even 4 half steps, but I hate that I lose the sound of the guitar capo'd at say the 9th fret or something. I hope this isn't too confusing; I'm just trying to find the best method to be able to sing all the songs I love with my guitar at concert pitch. Thanks,

 

-Dave

[Hudman]

Some people tune down a half, full or more and place the capo accordingly to maintain standard tuning.

 

For example, if you tune down a full step you place the capo on the 2nd fret.

[MattSkibaIsGOD]

Some people tune down a half, full or more and place the capo accordingly to maintain standard tuning. For example, if you tune down a full step you place the capo on the 2nd fret.

 

 

I am aware of that, I'm just wondering about the method of finding the most comfortable key to sing in. I wonder if there is a better way than the trial and error way.

[Samilyn]

No, Matt, it's not confusing. By "hard to reach notes," I'm assuming you're referring to your vocal range.

SteveO and I go through the same thing when we jam. If we're singing together, sometimes he has a hard time reaching notes that are comfortable for me.

Steve had a deep voice, so he normally tunes his gits down to D in order to best accommodate his vocal range. When we jam, however, he has to use a capo when playing with me because I tune down to Eb. Unfortunately, that 1/2 step up makes some songs difficult for Steve.

The alternative is to learn to transpose the more difficult songs into keys that are more comfortable for your voice. Oftentimes this works for me, but if the chords prove too difficult, I either alter my tuning or use a capo.

The capo is actually my last resort, simply because I don't like using them.

My suggestion is that unless you're playing with a band, other folks, or with a recorded track, go ahead and tune your gits down. Then you won't have to place the capo so high on the neck and lose the tonal quality of a longer string. You'd be surprised at the vocal breaks a half-step or whole-step down will give you.

[MattSkibaIsGOD]

Ok Thanks Samilyn; I reckon I'll keep on keeping on.

[Hudman]

Sorry Matt, I misunderstood you.

 

"Trial and error" is the only method I know in regard to changing keys to match your vocal range.

[MattSkibaIsGOD]

Sorry Matt, I misunderstood you. "Trial and error" is the only method I know in regard to changing keys to match your vocal range.

 

 

No problem. I was just contemplating the fact that every one of my guitars is in a different tuning and I thought maybe I could regulate it. Guess not; i suppose that's the beauty of having multiple guitars.

[Samilyn]

Ok Thanks Samilyn; I reckon I'll keep on keeping on.

Hang in there, Matt. Ya know, I forgot to suggest vocal practice and voice scales. Yup - those boring old scales. It's not all just about the gits.

It also would not hurt to have a few lessons with a voice coach so you can learn to reach those higher notes without damaging your vocal chords.

If you google, there are many vocalist sites that offer some excellent suggestions for training the voice and caring for it. I broke too many of the rules in my younger day and the consequence is that I've lost the majority of the range I once had.

[MattSkibaIsGOD]

Hang in there, Matt. Ya know, I forgot to suggest vocal practice and voice scales. Yup - those boring old scales. It's not all just about the gits. It also would not hurt to have a few lessons with a voice coach so you can learn to reach those higher notes without damaging your vocal chords. If you google, there are many vocalist sites that offer some excellent suggestions for training the voice and caring for it. I broke too many of the rules in my younger day and the consequence is that I've lost the majority of the range I once had.

 

 

I do try to warm up before I practice any songs by singing all of the major scales and arpeggios. I have voice lessons at school this semester, so I will hopefully be able to train and maintain my voice, but for now, I'm just trying to do my best because I love to sing.

[brahmz118]

It's an interesting dilemma -- you need the guitar to go down, and the capo can only make it go up.

To reduce all the possibilities of the trial and error method, it might help to get comfortable with just two positions: Capo 0 and Capo 5.

Key of C (Capo 0) = key of G (Capo 5)
Key of D (Capo 0) = key of A (Capo 5)
Key of G (Capo 0) = key of D (Capo 5)
Key of A (Capo 0) = key of E (Capo 5)
... and so on.

Once you learn the Capo 5 position then you're right at the key you started with, but now with the option of going down up to 5 half-steps

You do have to learn to transpose the original key up a perfect 5th (or down a perfect 4th). If you use a lot of little riffs / licks in the original key they might not translate well. But for songs that are mostly chord-based this system is fairly easy to implement.

There's a secondary use of learning the Capo 5 versions of songs -- when playing along with others, you can Capo 5 and use different voicings than everyone else. It's a nice way to stand out and complement the group sound.

Hope this isn't too complicated. It's much easier to demonstrate than explain. If you experiment you'll find that you can cover 11 of 12 keys with this method. If you understand that last sentence you're in great shape! If you want me to explain it just let me know.

[Stackabones]

It's an interesting dilemma -- you need the guitar to go down, and the capo can only make it go up. To reduce all the possibilities of the trial and error method, it might help to get comfortable with just two positions: Capo 0 and Capo 5. Key of C (Capo 0) = key of G (Capo 5) Key of D (Capo 0) = key of A (Capo 5) Key of G (Capo 0) = key of D (Capo 5) Key of A (Capo 0) = key of E (Capo 5) ... and so on. Once you learn the Capo 5 position then you're right at the key you started with, but now with the option of going down up to 5 half-steps You do have to learn to transpose the original key up a perfect 5th (or down a perfect 4th). If you use a lot of little riffs / licks in the original key they might not translate well. But for songs that are mostly chord-based this system is fairly easy to implement. There's a secondary use of learning the Capo 5 versions of songs -- when playing along with others, you can Capo 5 and use different voicings than everyone else. It's a nice way to stand out and complement the group sound. Hope this isn't too complicated. It's much easier to demonstrate than explain. If you experiment you'll find that you can cover 11 of 12 keys with this method. If you understand that last sentence you're in great shape! If you want me to explain it just let me know.

That looks like an elegant solution. I'm gonna sit down and mess with it. If it works, I'll pass it on to my students!

[Samilyn]

It's an interesting dilemma -- you need the guitar to go down, and the capo can only make it go up. To reduce all the possibilities of the trial and error method, it might help to get comfortable with just two positions: Capo 0 and Capo 5. Key of C (Capo 0) = key of G (Capo 5) Key of D (Capo 0) = key of A (Capo 5) Key of G (Capo 0) = key of D (Capo 5) Key of A (Capo 0) = key of E (Capo 5) ... and so on. Once you learn the Capo 5 position then you're right at the key you started with, but now with the option of going down up to 5 half-steps You do have to learn to transpose the original key up a perfect 5th (or down a perfect 4th). If you use a lot of little riffs / licks in the original key they might not translate well. But for songs that are mostly chord-based this system is fairly easy to implement. There's a secondary use of learning the Capo 5 versions of songs -- when playing along with others, you can Capo 5 and use different voicings than everyone else. It's a nice way to stand out and complement the group sound. Hope this isn't too complicated. It's much easier to demonstrate than explain. If you experiment you'll find that you can cover 11 of 12 keys with this method. If you understand that last sentence you're in great shape! If you want me to explain it just let me know.

Thanks, Brahmz!

I just printed that and am going to learn to work with it. I have no musical knowledge, so would never have figured that out in a million years.

To reiterate Stack, how elegant!

I can safely say my attitude towards a capo has drastically changed within the last 30 seconds.

[MattSkibaIsGOD]

It's an interesting dilemma -- you need the guitar to go down, and the capo can only make it go up. To reduce all the possibilities of the trial and error method, it might help to get comfortable with just two positions: Capo 0 and Capo 5. Key of C (Capo 0) = key of G (Capo 5) Key of D (Capo 0) = key of A (Capo 5) Key of G (Capo 0) = key of D (Capo 5) Key of A (Capo 0) = key of E (Capo 5) ... and so on. Once you learn the Capo 5 position then you're right at the key you started with, but now with the option of going down up to 5 half-steps You do have to learn to transpose the original key up a perfect 5th (or down a perfect 4th). If you use a lot of little riffs / licks in the original key they might not translate well. But for songs that are mostly chord-based this system is fairly easy to implement. There's a secondary use of learning the Capo 5 versions of songs -- when playing along with others, you can Capo 5 and use different voicings than everyone else. It's a nice way to stand out and complement the group sound. Hope this isn't too complicated. It's much easier to demonstrate than explain. If you experiment you'll find that you can cover 11 of 12 keys with this method. If you understand that last sentence you're in great shape! If you want me to explain it just let me know.

 

 

So to implement this method of no capo, and capo 5, (and I hope I'm not over-simplifying this...) I really just need to worry about transposition? I'm not sure my limited theory knowledge is aallowing me to comprehend this system.

[happy-man]

I just transpose. I generally just play solo at open mics so I don't have to worry about "being in the right key" for a particular song.

Scott O

[MattSkibaIsGOD]

Well, just for {censored}s and giggles, I brought all my guitars to either standard or Eb, and I for singing along with, Eb is the way to go. Scott, what kind of tunes do you do at the open mics? I would be super scared to just play my guitar, mostly because I'm not very good.

[daklander]

....I would be super scared to just play my guitar, mostly because I'm not very good.

Then who's playing the guitar on your tunes in the Annex????

[MattSkibaIsGOD]

Then who's playing the guitar on your tunes in the Annex????

Thanks Dak. I am my own toughest critic.

[brahmz118]

So to implement this method of no capo, and capo 5, (and I hope I'm not over-simplifying this...) I really just need to worry about transposition? I'm not sure my limited theory knowledge is aallowing me to comprehend this system.

 

 

It is a matter of transposition, but I like to think it's a more direct way of getting to the keys that are right below the original (as opposed to random trial and error).

 

For example, if the original key of C is a little too high, you can us this method to go straight to the keys B, Bb, and A, all using just a single transposition. That would be key of G (capo 4), key of G (capo 3), and key of G (capo 2), respectively.

 

Using the trial and error method you could potentially be searching through many different options (and these are just the guitar-friendly keys):

 

Key of B = key of A, capo 2; key of G, capo 4; key of F, capo 6; key of E, capo 7; key of C tuned down a semitone; etc.

Key of Bb = key of A, capo 1; key of G, capo 3; key of F, capo 5, key of E, capo 6; key of C tuned down 2 semitones; etc.

Key of A = key of A, capo 0; key of G, capo 2; key of F, capo 4; key of E, capo 5; key of D, capo 7; key of C tuned down 3 semitones; etc.

 

I'm not asking you to check through all of these; I'm just trying to show that it could be more time-consuming than the approach I'm proposing.

 

Of course, my method could be perceived as a crutch precisely because it avoids an exhaustive exploration of all the options. One might argue that there should be no avoidance on the journey towards mastery. And I'm not just talking about capo vs. non-capo. Every option from capo 0 to capo 7 (I wouldn't go much higher) is a different sound, and it's all worth exploring if you have the time and desire.

 

If it would be of any use to run through a specific example just let me know.

[MattSkibaIsGOD]

Thanks for taking the time to explain that Brahmz. It makes much more sense and I'll give it a shot.

[happy-man]

... Scott, what kind of tunes do you do at the open mics? I would be super scared to just play my guitar, mostly because I'm not very good.

 

 

I play all kinds of stuff. Last time I played Silent Night, What Child is This, and... Runaway Train (Soul Asylum). I might play a hundred year old hymn in the same set with Metalica. I learn songs that I like that I think can work on acoustic. The time before that I did Hold Me Now (Thompson twins), Stairway to Heaven, and... Somewhere Over the Rainbow. Those 3 were all first timers. I'd been working on them for ukulele, but I haven't got the uke up to where I've wanted to do it at the open mic yet. Fortunately most stuff works on acoustic guitar - but there are exceptions. I like the 77s, and I've got a bazzilion of their CDs, but I've only got about 3 songs of theirs that I've done.

 

If I want to learn a song I usually start with chords/tabs on the web; mostly ultimate guitar. You get what you pay for, so I just take it from there. For each song I'll just figure the key that works for me. Sometimes the voice gets stretched because I want to use particular chord voicings - then I might get out the capo. That's what I use capo for. When I've learned a new song with new chords that are cool and I really want the sound of those particular chords - but it doesn't match my vocal range.

 

Scott O

[alexbelllive]

The easiest way of getting the right key for you is to find the highest/lowest note in the song and equating it to the highest/lowest note you can comfortably sing.

 

You then figure out how many steps up or down you need to transpose. I prefer to use open chords, so I use a capo in conjuntion with transposing.

[guitarist21]

You then figure out how many steps up or down you need to transpose. I prefer to use open chords, so I use a capo in conjuntion with transposing.

 

This is an interesting thread and I'd like to throw in my music-student viewpoint.

 

I think there's something to be said for learning to transpose songs to different keys without the use of a capo. Like learning your intervals and stuff. Because once you get that stuff down, things like the little chart Brahmz made comes second-nature. And then once you get good at your intervals, you can start doing this stuff in your head. Its just like math, learning your multiplication tables all over again.

 

I just had this problem in church today. We were singing a song that the books had in the key of G but the singers wanted to do it in F. I slapped a capo on the third fret and played a "D" chord, which sounded an F, and I just transposed the chords of the song up a perfect fifth. (If I wanted, I could have just played the first position open chords, but I'm not a big fan of that first fret F major chord.) Its a convenient little ability to have in your back pocket.

 

Ellen

 

P.S. I should say that I love capos, though. I've met folks who are "jazz capo snobs," more or less, and refuse to use capos to transpose. I think this is a little over-the-top, plus when you use capos way high up you can get a cool mandolin-like sound which can add a cool dimension to your music.

[outdoorgb]

This is an interesting thread and I'd like to throw in my music-student viewpoint.

I slapped a capo on the third fret and played a "D" chord, which sounded an F, and I just transposed the chords of the song up a perfect fifth. (If I wanted, I could have just played the first position open chords, but I'm not a big fan of that first fret F major chord.) Its a convenient little ability to have in your back pocket.

Noobie puts tail between legs and goes back to his corner...

[Harmonycat]

I "trial and error" songs on www.Chordie.com, since transposing is just a mouse click away!