Members Samilyn Posted December 31, 2007 Members Posted December 31, 2007 Hey, Stack I practiced the stuff you sent last night. The chords sound so cool! The rest stroke is a technique best described as simple-but-not-easy. I'm pretty sure I managed to do it correctly a couple of times because the git sounded great. And the git sure let me know when I messed up, too. Took a critical look at how I pick, and you're right - like most players, I pick mostly from the wrist, even though I don't rest on the bridge. Took a while to loosen up the whole arm and drop it as you suggested. Thanks again for helping me take my baby steps in this fascinating world of gypsy jazz! Happy New Year to ya!
Members simplygoodmusic Posted December 31, 2007 Members Posted December 31, 2007 Its a great technique once you've got it down. I can't play at a jam session without using it anymore...even when playing a dread.
Members Stackabones Posted December 31, 2007 Members Posted December 31, 2007 Glad it worked out. A word of warning -- don't keep the wrist stiff. Keep it supple. It'll still be used and it still moves. But in the beginning, I think it helps to exaggerate the arm motion over the wrist motion. Another way to describe the picking motion is that it's like shaking a match to make the flame go out. Your wrist still moves, but the arm moves with it. Here's a vid of it. Notice that arm is moving, but the wrist is very loose. A lot of players lightly touch the back of their picking fingers to the top of the guitar. [YOUTUBE]4Jy-XPgLpgc[/YOUTUBE] Happy New Year!
Members Samilyn Posted December 31, 2007 Author Members Posted December 31, 2007 Happy New Year! Thanks bunches, Stack! That's what I must have been doing wrong - too stiff from trying too hard. When it sounded good, must have happened when I relaxed. For now, I'm going to exaggerate the motion, as you suggested. Can always fine-tune it later. The vid clears up a lot of gray area. Monkey see, monkey do.
Members EvilTwin Posted December 31, 2007 Members Posted December 31, 2007 Don't get discouraged, Sammy. It's kinda hard to re-train yourself that way. I've been interested in gypsy jazz for a long time, but I still circular pick for fast licks. I just have never been able to generate enough speed pivoting from the elbow and wrist. That clip Stack posted makes me feel totally inadequate.
Members brahmz118 Posted December 31, 2007 Members Posted December 31, 2007 Can anyone spell out a brief description of this technique for the uninitiated? When I hear 'rest stroke' I think of the classical guitar technique of allowing the thumb to stop on the next string, but that doesn't appear to be related to this at all. A brief and ineffective Google search turned up a description claiming the 'rest' is letting the pick fall through the strings using gravity alone, but that doesn't seem to be happening in the video. Which of the 5 million strokes in that video is a rest stroke?
Members Stackabones Posted December 31, 2007 Members Posted December 31, 2007 Can anyone spell out a brief description of this technique for the uninitiated? When I hear 'rest stroke' I think of the classical guitar technique of allowing the thumb to stop on the next string, but that doesn't appear to be related to this at all. A brief and ineffective Google search turned up a description claiming the 'rest' is letting the pick fall through the strings using gravity alone, but that doesn't seem to be happening in the video. Which of the 5 million strokes in that video is a rest stroke? You've got the gist of it ... and nobody does it exactly as described. IMHO, I think one of the main components of the technique is keeping the picking hand from being anchored on the top of the guitar -- which is a basic principle in classical guitar as well. From what I can tell, classical right hand technique has a similar position as GJ rest stroke -- but with a pick. Most modern GJ players use a mix of circular, economy, sweep, and rest strokes -- at least that's what I see in the vids of the top players. But the basic rest stroke technique can help increase volume without too much exertion in my experience. At first I thought it was just the guitars. But I had a friend play my Gitane and I played his dread. While my Gitane still had the same tonal qualities (punchy mids, reduced basses), his volume was still low. When I did the rest stroke on his dread, I was much louder on that dread than his was on my Gitane. I've used the technique on my Gitane in a room full of dreads and definitely was able to be heard. There are some forums online that go into extensive detail and wage battles about this. I believe that -- like in many specific genres -- players will get fixated on certain aspects like technique and gear and talk them to death. But if you try to pin down what makes Django a legend, or what makes Stochelo or Bireli amazing ... well, that just goes beyond technique and gear and gets into areas that language has problems communicating. I think it's an interesting technique and every acoustic pick-style player should at least give it a go.
Members Jake7 Posted December 31, 2007 Members Posted December 31, 2007 I use a rest stroke technique a hell of alot to get volume or punch through my partner in my acoustic duo....whether it is the same thing as you use I dunno...I stole it from Doc Watson and Tony Rice type players, and I basically "tiddly-wink" through the strings and land on the one underneath.
Members simplygoodmusic Posted December 31, 2007 Members Posted December 31, 2007 I use a rest stroke technique a hell of alot to get volume or punch through my partner in my acoustic duo....whether it is the same thing as you use I dunno...I stole it from Doc Watson and Tony Rice type players, and I basically "tiddly-wink" through the strings and land on the one underneath. Similar to what you are saying, but not exactly. The basics of the rest is that, but the ancoring of the hand is slightly different. There is more angel, and your fingers DO NOT touch the top of the guitar, like they sometimes do in Bluegrass. Its a pain at first to get those extra small things, but sure is worth it at times. By the way, how are you man? Its been a while.
Members Jake7 Posted December 31, 2007 Members Posted December 31, 2007 Similar to what you are saying, but not exactly. The basics of the rest is that, but the ancoring of the hand is slightly different. There is more angel, and your fingers DO NOT touch the top of the guitar, like they sometimes do in Bluegrass. Its a pain at first to get those extra small things, but sure is worth it at times. By the way, how are you man? Its been a while. Hi Yeonathan,happy new year!Yeah I'm doin' ok thanks man, I'm playing a hell of a lot of different kinds of music and recording new stuff! Yeah I just watched that video above, and I see the arm movement is very different than mine, but I think the end result is a similar kind of attack.I rarely anchor my fingers though, and I hold the pick in my palm, but only actually use it for fast stuff and rest strokes, the rest of the time I pretty much use myfinger and thumb....I have a weird way of playing!
Members Samilyn Posted December 31, 2007 Author Members Posted December 31, 2007 Wow - this is one great thread! Thanks, everyone, for the input, comparisons and encouragement. Yup - re-training my picking hand/arm is going to take a lot of work, but well worth the effort to play this cool music. Right now I'm a clumsy noob, but that's okay. I don't think I'll ever be able to play like that guy in the vid - I simply don't have enough years left in me - but it sure is something to aspire to. Hey, Brahmz...you only counted 5 million strokes? I thought it was 6 million!
Members Stackabones Posted December 31, 2007 Members Posted December 31, 2007 the rest of the time I pretty much use myfinger and thumb....I have a weird way of playing! Index and thumb? Many African pickers do this ... and that's all Merle Travis did. [YOUTUBE]hbdckgfmIC0[/YOUTUBE] [YOUTUBE]94gpQyuJjts[/YOUTUBE] Maybe ya ain't so weird after all! But then again ... maybe you are?
Members Jake7 Posted December 31, 2007 Members Posted December 31, 2007 Yep Stack, but I permanently have a pick plamed, and if it comes out then I use it with the middle and ring fingers,pick the bass note and fire through the rest of the chord with percussive plucks, otherwise it's just like finger and thumb. I also whack the strings in a thumb down version of a bass players slap fairly often,and hit the body for a beat.I never knowingly practiced at the things I do, they just happened, so right or wrong I am comfortable playing that way.If you get a chance listen to "flights and failures" on my myspace and you get a fair idea of the way I pick....just ignore the out of tune low string on the recording...I decided to leave it rather than re-take because I liked it being a bit honest, due to the songs subject matter.
Members EvilTwin Posted December 31, 2007 Members Posted December 31, 2007 Similar to what you are saying, but not exactly. The basics of the rest is that, but the ancoring of the hand is slightly different. There is more angel, and your fingers DO NOT touch the top of the guitar, like they sometimes do in Bluegrass. Its a pain at first to get those extra small things, but sure is worth it at times. I think you can see Django brush his fingers a few times... http://www.about-django.com/news/videos/videos.php ...and his wrist angle doesn't seem as extreme as I've seen other modern gypsy jazzers do. Often imitated, but never duplicated.
Members Stackabones Posted December 31, 2007 Members Posted December 31, 2007 Yep Stack, but I permanently have a pick plamed, and if it comes out then I use it with the middle and ring fingers,pick the bass note and fire through the rest of the chord with percussive plucks, otherwise it's just like finger and thumb. I also whack the strings in a thumb down version of a bass players slap fairly often,and hit the body for a beat. I never knowingly practiced at the things I do, they just happened, so right or wrong I am comfortable playing that way. If you get a chance listen to "flights and failures" on my myspace and you get a fair idea of the way I pick....just ignore the out of tune low string on the recording...I decided to leave it rather than re-take because I liked it being a bit honest, due to the songs subject matter. Sounds like we have a similar homemade approach to fingerpicking. I've done plenty of hybrid picking, and if I read you right my thumb does what yours does too -- no plan, just sorta appeared. Dig the tune, btw. Stone just started ... sounds tastey! So, you use drop tunings? Sorry about the sidejack, Sammie!!! Here's Joscho Stephan, a pretty good GJer who uses the rest stroke and other more modern techniques. Explosive player. [YOUTUBE]BMFcROnopmU[/YOUTUBE]
Members simplygoodmusic Posted December 31, 2007 Members Posted December 31, 2007 I think you can see Django brush his fingers a few times... http://www.about-django.com/news/videos/videos.php ...and his wrist angle doesn't seem as extreme as I've seen other modern gypsy jazzers do. Often imitated, but never duplicated. From what I understand, the fingers touching the top are nearly always just brushing from the angle...now that doesnt count does it:lol: I admit some people push small techniques django used into extremes. The heavy pick thing is one example. He used a heavy pick, but I see gypsy players using 5.0 at times:freak:. If I'm not mistaken, even the great stochelo rosenberg has now switched to a MUCH lighter pick. I remember reading 2.0 or something, but I could be wrong. And happy new year to you as well Rick, good to hear from you:thu:
Members Jake7 Posted December 31, 2007 Members Posted December 31, 2007 Thanks Stack!I pretty much play everything in drop D or double drop D, i.e. both E's down. But I'm getting into DADGAD alot of late too.
Members simplygoodmusic Posted December 31, 2007 Members Posted December 31, 2007 Sorry about the sidejack, Sammie!!! Here's Joscho Stephan, a pretty good GJer who uses the rest stroke and other more modern techniques. Explosive player. Aaa...good old Joscho. He is a perfect example of technique being different. Compare his video to the other extreme in gyspy jazz. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhNATYtIvuA That would be romane...one of my fav players, and my fav gypsy jazz guitr sound:thu:
Members Stackabones Posted December 31, 2007 Members Posted December 31, 2007 Aaa...good old Joscho.He is a perfect example of technique being different. Compare his video to the other extreme in gyspy jazz.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhNATYtIvuAThat would be romane...one of my fav players, and my fav gypsy jazz guitr sound:thu: He's sooo good. I've got his disc with Stochelo ... Double Jeu. I've also got Romane's "L'Esprit Manouche" which pretty comprehensive. And at the other end is Frank Vignola, who plays a mean GJ but from what I've heard isn't terribly concerned about the rest stroke technique. [YOUTUBE]YQnn7FWKO-A[/YOUTUBE] Whew ... that's a lot a picking. Think I'm gonna go chill on some bossa.
Members EvilTwin Posted December 31, 2007 Members Posted December 31, 2007 From what I understand, the fingers touching the top are nearly always just brushing from the angle...now that doesnt count does it:lol: I admit some people push small techniques django used into extremes. The heavy pick thing is one example. He used a heavy pick, but I see gypsy players using 5.0 at times:freak:. If I'm not mistaken, even the great stochelo rosenberg has now switched to a MUCH lighter pick. I remember reading 2.0 or something, but I could be wrong. And happy new year to you as well Rick, good to hear from you:thu: Yeah, I'm just nit picking. There's a sort of "technique dogma" that now surrounds gypsy jazz...and I don't think a lot of it is stuff Django even did. As you pointed out, the thick pick thing is one factor. I know Django used heavy ones, but I never hear the "pick dancing on a string" sound in his recordings like I do in modern ones. And in Michael Dregni's thorough biography of Django, it sounds like he'd pretty much play with anything he could get his hands on (buttons, the teeth from combs, etc.), anyway.
Members simplygoodmusic Posted December 31, 2007 Members Posted December 31, 2007 Yep, Romane and stochelo are a FANTASTIC duo. Frank's a good example, and he also uses a 1.14 pick on his sig benedetto, even when playing the most gypsy of stuff. Frank has been one of my greatest influences in the past couple of months, but his sound is very un gypsy ish. He picks with a very regular angle... all the way near the neck at times. And if you wanna chill...why not give this a shot? A piece you should know...but I'm really posting for others as well. And Samilyn...don't worry! Thats the last vid I post. I just get carried away at times.
Members simplygoodmusic Posted December 31, 2007 Members Posted December 31, 2007 Haha I didn't know that EvilTwin...Comb Teeth? Talk about being practical!
Members Samilyn Posted December 31, 2007 Author Members Posted December 31, 2007 Yep, Romane and stochelo are a FANTASTIC duo.Frank's a good example, and he also uses a 1.14 pick on his sig benedetto, even when playing the most gypsy of stuff. Frank has been one of my greatest influences in the past couple of months, but his sound is very un gypsy ish. He picks with a very regular angle... all the way near the neck at times. And if you wanna chill...why not give this a shot? A piece you should know...but I'm really posting for others as well.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-Q3rNurhAo&feature=relatedAnd Samilyn...don't worry! Thats the last vid I post. I just get carried away at times. Keep 'em coming - I love 'em! Even though they take a while to load on my stone-age dial-up here at home, it's worth the wait. I also bookmark 'em on my laptop and peruse them at leisure when I go to a wi-fi spot, like a coffeehouse. Good git music + a cup of smooth java = pleasant lunch hour.
Members EvilTwin Posted December 31, 2007 Members Posted December 31, 2007 Haha I didn't know that EvilTwin...Comb Teeth? Talk about being practical! If I remember correctly, yep. It's all in this book: http://www.amazon.com/Django-Life-Music-Gypsy-Legend/dp/019516752X A pretty good read, IMO. Django used to play in some seedy places.
Members simplygoodmusic Posted December 31, 2007 Members Posted December 31, 2007 Will read. I read a few articles, heard a few stories and saw a few documentaries, but there is so much to know!
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