Got some ebony bridge pins for my Alvarez

[TelesRock]

 

Hmmm. I would think that the shape of the pin might have more effect than the material...but I had the opposite result. I took out the plastic pins on my H-bird and replaced them with ebony--and the sound was better. Not hugely different, but a "fuller" sound especially in the mids. I put brass pins on my old Yammie jumbo, just as an experiment. Really like what that did for its upper end. You could really notice the difference playing fingerstyle.

 

 

You are wrong and a liar.

[TelesRock]

 

I suggest you listen to that bridge pin test then.

 

 

You are wrong and a liar.

[TelesRock]

 

You must have a {censored}ty ear, and even {censored}tier understanding of physics.

 

 

You are wrong and a liar.

[TelesRock]

 

Every guitar is different and every bridge will react differently to whatever pins are placed in it. Additionally, every ear is different. While sound, or one's perception of it, is entirely subjective, the physics of mass and vibration with regard to the production of sound waves stands on its own merit. You, sir, are the one who is wrong. +1 But perhaps he (TelesRock) will be one who perceives no difference.

 

 

You are wrong and a liar.

[TelesRock]

I would suggest it's possible the shallower slots in the ebony bridge pins have something to do with the thinness post install. What I think may be occurring is the shallow slots allow the bottom of the slot to contact the sting and push it down into the hole, away from the bridge plate. Try deepening the slot and try it again. Or, you could cut a slot in the guitar. I can say without doubt bridge pins have made a difference in the sound/tone of the guitars I've changed them on. My FG150 gained sustain and clarity with the installation of brass pins. I did that nearly 30 years ago and yes, same strings and even when the strings were changed the "new" string tone was better than with the old pins, ie better sustain and clarity. I also found a longer time before the sustain started dying. I placed ebony strings in the Guild I had and that kind of muddied up the low end and became a bit quacky so I put the plastic back in. Those pins went into my FG411S and I found a lot more sustain and an overall sweeter tone with a bit less stridence on the upper end.

 

You are wrong and a liar.

[TelesRock]

 

I agree. Usually the tester is hearing the new strings or a different brand. It's cork-sniffery at best. But I guess opinions are like assholes, everybody has one. I do have a cool test for you all: Go get a lead weight like people use to fish with and tape it to the bridge. See if you can hear a difference in tone when you play. If things like changing the bridge pins from plastic to wood make all that tone delicious goodness, a lead weight on the bridge should do SOMETHING, right? I'm not saying better or worse....just different. It should effect things. Anyway, what's neat about the test is that it can be done quickly and easily and it negates all that string change business. Heck, if you actually hear an improvement maybe you can fine tune it by placing the lead weight in that strategic location on the bridge that maximizes tone. Maybe tape a bunch of them on there in different places. How about taping coins to the soundboard? Experiment. Start a trend.

 

 

You are knowledgeable a wise. A lot more people in this thread need to listen to you.

[DarkHorseJ27]

 

You are knowledgeable a wise. A lot more people in this thread need to listen to you.

 

 

Suck-up.

[Grant Harding]

You are wrong and a liar.

You R dum and a bad trole.

[daklander]

You are wrong and a liar.

Look in the mirror.

With a moniker like TelesRock probably wouldn't know an acoustic guitar if it reached up and bit you on the ass and probably don't know what bridge pins are let alone any affects that may or may not occur due to bridge pin replacement.

[Grant Harding]

Look in the mirror. With a moniker like TelesRock probably wouldn't know an acoustic guitar if it reached up and bit you on the ass and probably don't know what bridge pins are let alone any affects that may or may not occur due to bridge pin replacement.

Yep - the moniker also reveals that his/her taste in electrics is pretty basic and unimaginative.

[DarkHorseJ27]

 

Yep - the moniker also reveals that his/her taste in electrics is pretty basic and unimaginative.

 

 

Nothing wrong with like telecasters, as long as you don't think its the only good guitar.

[Michael Martin]

 

You are wrong and a liar.

 

And you are modest man, with much to be modest about.

[TelesRock]

You R dum and a bad trole.

 

I must be smarter than you, because I can actually spell.

[Krash]

Sadly, there's nothing much of interest on the boards tonight, and it's too early to go to bed, although my leg hurts rather badly, and it's only a matter of hours, if not minutes, until JT sees this thread, and the feces really hit the fan (again - and rightfully so), but this topic has been hashed and rehashed so many times, it has apparently had a subliminal effect on my damaged brain, the result of which is I have somehow been blessed with the knowledge that, yes, different bridge pins can, indeed, affect the tone of a guitar (although not everyone will hear it), and, more importantly, I now know why, notwithstanding the fact that I am somewhat deaf - a result of operating heavy equipment (running a backhoe is the most fun you can have with your clothes on), riding jackhammers, firing small arms - most certainly tone deaf, and the only guitar I've ever owned that has bridge pins is my $129 F335 Yammie Lammie, on which I replaced the original plastic pins with brass, the primary benefits being it's easier to pull out the brass pins with crappy hands because they have big knurled heads, instead of the little smooth round heads that the plastic pins have, and the mop inlays look pretty.....

 

 

Um, sorry, must have dozed off. Anyway, as to why the bridge pins affect tone (that is what we were discussing, isn't it?), it has nothing to do with the mass of the bridge. The difference in mass is negligible in relation to the mass of the bridge, bridge plate, top and bracing. What it has to do with is the fact that the pins are in direct contact with the strings and the bridge, and some of the vibrational energy of the strings is transmitted to the bridge, and then to the top, through the shank of the pins. Obviously, different materials will affect the vibrations differently - softer materials will have a damping effect, hard materials will transmit more energy to the bridge, that sort of thing. Whether the difference is perceptible or not depends, of course, on the guitar and the guitarist.

 

There, that was simple, wasn't it? Please, don't thank me - I'm glad to have finally put this subject to rest. And yes, for those of you with literary inclinations, that first paragraph is all one sentence, and is grammatically correct (mostly).

 

Speaking of which (rest, that is), think I'll go to bed now, before JT arrives.

 

'Night.

[TelesRock]

Sadly, there's nothing much of interest on the boards tonight, and it's too early to go to bed, although my leg hurts rather badly, and it's only a matter of hours, if not minutes, until JT sees this thread, and the feces really hit the fan ( again - and rightfully so), but this topic has been hashed and rehashed so many times, it has apparently had a subliminal effect on my damaged brain, the result of which is I have somehow been blessed with the knowledge that, yes, different bridge pins can, indeed, affect the tone of a guitar (although not everyone will hear it), and, more importantly, I now know why, notwithstanding the fact that I am somewhat deaf - a result of operating heavy equipment (running a backhoe is the most fun you can have with your clothes on), riding jackhammers, firing small arms - most certainly tone deaf, and the only guitar I've ever owned that has bridge pins is my $129 F335 Yammie Lammie, on which I replaced the original plastic pins with brass, the primary benefits being it's easier to pull out the brass pins with crappy hands because they have big knurled heads, instead of the little smooth round heads that the plastic pins have, and the mop inlays look pretty..... Um, sorry, must have dozed off. Anyway, as to why the bridge pins affect tone (that is what we were discussing, isn't it?), it has nothing to do with the mass of the bridge. The difference in mass is negligible in relation to the mass of the bridge, bridge plate, top and bracing. What it has to do with is the fact that the pins are in direct contact with the strings and the bridge, and some of the vibrational energy of the strings is transmitted to the bridge, and then to the top, through the shank of the pins. Obviously, different materials will affect the vibrations differently - softer materials will have a damping effect, hard materials will transmit more energy to the bridge, that sort of thing. Whether the difference is perceptible or not depends, of course, on the guitar and the guitarist. There, that was simple, wasn't it? Please, don't thank me - I'm glad to have finally put this subject to rest. And yes, for those of you with literary inclinations, that first paragraph is all one sentence, and is grammatically correct (mostly). Speaking of which (rest, that is), think I'll go to bed now, before JT arrives. 'Night.

 

Couldn't be more wrong.

[DarkHorseJ27]

 

You are wrong and a liar.

 

 

Have you heard, played, or even seen my guitar? No, you haven't. So how can you even say what I do or don't hear? You can't.

 

Or do you have some sort of supernatural ability to know what specific guitars that you never played, heard, or seen will sound like? If so, please let us know.

[Grant Harding]

I must be smarter than you, because I can actually spell.

Ah - you're as perceptive as you are tolerant. I new U were not dumber then mee.

[Existentialist]

I'm convinced just about everything on a guitar makes a small difference in tone and that, while some people may have less sensitive ears and not hear 1 nut change, 1 bridge pin change, 1 saddle change, a slightly different species of back/sides wood, a different fret or fretboard material, different tuners, changing all of these things begins to add up to a significant tonal change and make or break a guitar to differing tastes. I know that on one of my guitars, a nut change alone made a very obvious difference. If I were to change all of these things, I would expect it to be a completely different instrument.

 

I also find the idea of buying a guitar from luthiers convinced sound comes only from the strings and the topwood bracing and everything else is "good enough for you" quite frightening.... but that's just me.

[guitarcapo]

Bob Taylor discusses the matter a bit in the latest newsletter "Wood and Steel" in his "ask Bob" column:

 

 

Q: In the photo of Ray Davies in the last issue of "Wood and Steel" he seems to be using ebony bridge pins on strings 3 through 6, and bone/ivory pins on 1 and 2. How would the different pin materials effect his guitar's sound? Also, I've been considering changing the plastic pins on one of my less expensive guitars (not a Taylor) for ebony pins. Would I notice an improvement? Could I use the ebony pins Taylor sells (some online sources suggest they might be a bit short). or should I go with something generic if I'm not using them on my Taylors? John Cebula A: John, what if I said that the bridge pins won't make a big difference in the sound of your guitar? This detail is way more cosmetic than acoustic. Now, there are people who swap those parts and become more, or perhaps less, happy with their guitar's sound. It's one of those little details that you really have to discover for yourself, and luckily it's not a big investment to do so. As for our ebony pins being long enough for your non-Taylor guitar, they probably are: however the holes in your guitar might not be reamed to the same diameter as our pins, which could cause a tight fit. If you have a Taylor already, just try your pins. I think a little dose of trial and error is the answer to both of your questions; feel free to experiment.

 

 

Sounds like the owner and founder of Taylor guitars doesn't think bridge pins do anything for sound but is being diplomatic to avoid all this controversy. Go ahead and try it I guess.

[Existentialist]

I wouldn't disagree with Bob Taylor at all there. The difference is perhaps more aesthetic than audible, but it's still audible and makes the difference to some people for a very small financial risk. Dead on.

[guitarcapo]

. Anyway, as to why the bridge pins affect tone (that is what we were discussing, isn't it?), it has nothing to do with the mass of the bridge. The difference in mass is negligible in relation to the mass of the bridge, bridge plate, top and bracing. What it has to do with is the fact that the pins are in direct contact with the strings and the bridge, and some of the vibrational energy of the strings is transmitted to the bridge, and then to the top, through the shank of the pins. Obviously, different materials will affect the vibrations differently - softer materials will have a damping effect, hard materials will transmit more energy to the bridge, that sort of thing. Whether the difference is perceptible or not depends, of course, on the guitar and the guitarist. There, that was simple, wasn't it? Please, don't thank me - I'm glad to have finally put this subject to rest. And yes, for those of you with literary inclinations, that first paragraph is all one sentence, and is grammatically correct (mostly). Speaking of which (rest, that is), think I'll go to bed now, before JT arrives. 'Night.

 

Doesn't work that way. The vibrations pass through the saddle to the bridgeplate. The space between the saddle and the pin that the string spans is too short for any vibration of the string in the audible range to occur. It might as well be a single mass of ANY material or pinless (which it sometimes is with some designs.) The saddle point is another "nodal point" to the string's vibration. If vibrations DID pass through the saddle to the pins as you describe, and the sound WAS audible...what you would hear would be a second frequency out of tune with the string...or at least a bad sound because of an altered scale length distorting the string scale length that IS vibrating. Thanks for playing, though.

[LaurentB]

 

You are wrong and a liar.

 

 

Thank you for putting me right in such an enlightened way.

[guitarcapo]

You are wrong and a liar.

 

 

Oooooh SNAP!

[outdoorgb]

Last night I put a new set of Daddario 12/53 on my Larrivee L03R. I used the stock plastic pins and ran it for about 8 minutes. Then put a capo on and switched out to Colosi bone pins and ran it again for 8 minutes.

 

The results were interesting. I was going to write an indepth report on the results but I would hate to skew the results of this fine thread...

 

Besides...I am wrong and a liar:wave:...but not an asshat:thu:

 

 

BTW - not much if any difference in my little test....

[rhancox]

 

Sounds like the owner and founder of Taylor guitars doesn't think bridge pins do anything for sound but is being diplomatic to avoid all this controversy. Go ahead and try it I guess.

 

 

Well, see, now you're reading something into it so you can further your point. His words were "What if I said...bridge pins won't make a big difference...". That's not even a statement of fact. It's a suggestion of one.

 

Your explanation, though, makes a lot of sense. However, is there a way to measure vibration of a string at any given point? More to the point, do you have something to measure with and do you have the readings to back up your statement? I'm not trying to shoot down your point, I'm just looking for some data to back it up, because it does make a lot of sense.

 

Obviously, if you could measure it between the saddle and the nut, the readings would be off the charts. But how about between the nut and the tuning posts or between the saddle and bridge pins? If some amount of vibration could be measured at those points, then one wonders, what kind of affect does it have?

 

I don't pretend to know enough to say what someone is really hearing or to say who's statement is right or wrong. I am only after more facts so I can make a more informed decision on the matter.