Repairing a Gibson acoustic 12-string with a crushed top

[reachjkh]

See how potential greatness is crushed? I give up on this idea. Now you guys are just gonna have to sit around and watch Meandi fix this guitar.

[rickoshea]

just read through this thread. Really great stuff meandi, plus your builds in your other threads are absolutely stunning - brilliant

[meandi]

^^^^ It's ever so clever, isn't it? Meandi, can one even buy ready made 12 strings intonated saddles? You can definitely find the intonated 6 strings saddles, but cant remember ever seeing a 12 strings one.

I don't recall ever seeing a ready made saddle for 12 string, so I'll just cut it out of this.

[meandi]

It's always been a constant, steady flow of work in the shop over the years as the vast majority of orders are via recommendation or add-on's to previous orders. Some existing customers have been with us since the 50's, but not all orders are for acoustic guitars and they still make violin, cello and electric guitars. Well, 2.5 luthiers (Counting my son "The Apprentice" Jonathan into the equation ) have delivered 40 instruments between them so far this year, so - all things being equal and no problems - they should have somewhere nearing/slightly over 100 built and completed by the year's end. This should lead to something approaching 250-300 instruments completed by mid 2013 if all goes well. The time involved revolves around a baseline average of 50hrs per pre-finished standard instrument built from scratch, plus add-on's/extras. Standing time (Acclimatisation) or finish drying time doesn't count during the settling-in and fine tuning period, as they typicallyprogress onto and through other builds during what would otherwise be down time and there are seldom any less than three on-going builds at any one time.

That's most impressive!
I had almost 40 hrs in carving the back plate for my archie, & you're sending one to finish in 50.
That's the difference in your years of experience compared to my hobby shop newbyishness...
Does your shop have a web page?
I'd love to get a look at your opperation.

[meandi]

See how potential greatness is crushed? I give up on this idea. Now you guys are just gonna have to sit around and watch Meandi fix this guitar.

That's why, if you've got an unconventional idea that you think will work...

Here's Thomas Edison in his workshop..."everyone says I'm crazy to think I can get light out of a glass globe...oh well, it sounded like a good idea to me".

Ya never know untill you try!

[meandi]

just read through this thread. Really great stuff meandi, plus your builds in your other threads are absolutely stunning - brilliant

Thanks Rick, I appreciate the compliment.
I've been MOST impressed with your build!

[Gary Palmer]

That's most impressive! I had almost 40 hrs in carving the back plate for my archie, & you're sending one to finish in 50. That's the difference in your years of experience compared to my hobby shop newbyishness... Does your shop have a web page? I'd love to get a look at your opperation.

I'm no longer directly linked to the business, but the lads were supposed to be arranging a website sometime this year although they haven't mentioned it yet. I'll give them a call and ask what the situation is, but it's never really been necessary to advertise.

Speed only tends to come with practise and much of the time it's a case of not having to put much thought into the crafting technique part of things as certain aspects of the work tend to become second nature after a while. Ask me to explain something and it'll often take me far longer to write down than if I were to show by example.

[guitarcapo]

I don't recall ever seeing a ready made saddle for 12 string, so I'll just cut it out of this.

I had a bridge that had a thick slot like that once and I used two bone nut blanks to make the saddle. I used the place where they butted against each other for the compensation jag from the b to g string.

[meandi]

I had a bridge that had a thick slot like that once and I used two bone nut blanks to make the saddle. I used the place where they butted against each other for the compensation jag from the b to g string.

Same thing here.
I haven't been able to locate any 1/4" thick bone blanks, so on the archtop & the Alvarez, I used a 7/32 - .218" thick blank & super glued a 3/32-.093" blank to it.

It works out as such...

saddle slot, 1/4-.250"...

two bone blanks 7/32-.218" + 3/32-.093" = .311" total rough saddle blank thickness.

I shave the .093 side down till the blank snugly fits the bridge slot, leaving only .061" on the thinner portion, which amounts to only a shim so the blank will properly fit the bridge slot.

On the ones I have done this way, the strings have always ended up sitting on the thicker portion of the saddle blank...so no worries about strength of the glue line, while leaving plenty of material for an accurate intonation.

[guitarcapo]

Once I had a Silvertone Harmony Jupiter electric that sounded great...but because it was hollow and the bridge was wood, it seemed to lack sustain. The short scale length wasn't helping either. I kept thinking that a bridge made of a harder substance would help a lot....but it was hard to find anything aftermarket that would work...so I superglued two flat pieces of scrap elephant ivory to each other to make a thick piece and then I carved it to the exact same shape as the wooden parts...then I just re-used the original bridge hardware. The sound improved a bit...and it looked cooler...but I ended up selling it on Ebay because I couldn't get used to the short scale length.
Anyway I hate to derail the thread but while you're on the subject of superglued bridges...this one held together for a couple of years without splitting apart:

[YOUTUBE]FHOYBbxKFJE[/YOUTUBE]

[meandi]

The pieces in front of the bridge are all in place & as I stated earlier in this thread, the fracture lines are visable.
This is a structural/playability vs an invisable repair project.


I've got the dremel in the router base with a downcut bit that is set just low enough to clean the glue off the surface of the new bridge plate.
I want the repair piece for the top to glue directly to the bridgeplate material.


I'm also removing, for replacement, the damaged material that has torn & is not up to the plane of the top


The cutting action is heating the hard glue & it is sticking to the cutter bit.
Have to stop frequently & clean it off...keep the sharp cutting area clean & effective.

[Gary Palmer]

Hi Ray,

A little acetone/nail varnish remover on your downcut bit should remove and help prevent glue residue build-up.

Possibly something for future reference.

I should have mentioned this much earlier, but hadn't realised you weren't using this or a similar method. Are you undercutting the transition between old and new in order to counter act bridge pull on the soundboard? It normally involves angling the mating edges ======//========\====== so new and old tie-in nicely together. This technique involves inserting the filler piece from beneath.

It's a little more fiddly to do and lends itself to the use of a matched pair of templates, router with an adjustable (Angled) base and template following cutter, but is a structurally sound addition to the bridge plate and a safeguard in case of glue failure. The upper surface of the insert can be left proud and routed/sanded/otherwise trimmed flush with it's surroundings once the insert has set.

I hope this helps in terms of future reference.

[jamesp]

Coming along nicely, Meandi.
I'll bet the client is jazzed.

[meandi]

Hi Ray, A little acetone/nail varnish remover on your downcut bit should remove and help prevent glue residue build-up. Possibly something for future reference. I should have mentioned this much earlier, but hadn't realised you weren't using this or a similar method. Are you undercutting the transition between old and new in order to counter act bridge pull on the soundboard? It normally involves angling the mating edges ======//========\====== so new and old tie-in nicely together. This technique involves inserting the filler piece from beneath. It's a little more fiddly to do and lends itself to the use of a matched pair of templates, router with an adjustable (Angled) base and template following cutter, but is a structurally sound addition to the bridge plate and a safeguard in case of glue failure. The upper surface of the insert can be left proud and routed/sanded/otherwise trimmed flush with it's surroundings once the insert has set. I hope this helps in terms of future reference.

That's a good idea on the acetone, thanks!

My tape guides are slightly inside the actual footprint of the bridge, giving me room to undercut on the front edge.
However, since the bridge plate is already glued in place, I won't be able to install these pieces from below.
My thoughts are, since, at the rear of the bridge the up-pull of the string loads will be on the bridge plate rather than the top or the bridge itself, and at the front of the bridge, it seems to me the loads should be down into the top, I should be ok.

I had already thought that I would leave the new top wood slightly high & bring it down using the router as a mill of sorts & finish with a scraper & then add "tooth" for adhesion with some 80 grit.

The piece of sitka that I have is not as large as I had thought, so I'm using maple for my replacement top wood.
My cuts are all inside the bridge footprint, thus will not be visable later.
I'll cut this piece to start with...


...and then cut the pieces needed from it for fitting.
I left original wood in all places where it isn't damaged or missing.

[meandi]

Coming along nicely, Meandi. I'll bet the client is jazzed.

Thanks!
The owner is a friend of a friend who dropped the guitar off (a guy who's work I've been doing for about 4 years now), who I've never met... so I haven't talked to him...I sent him a link to the thread...don't know if he's been following or not.

[guitarcapo]

I'll bet if you French polished over that pieced in front edge it wouldn't look so bad. You could fill in the crevices with CA or epoxy glue to get a level surface.

[FretFiend.]

I see you are using flatsawn maple for the bridgeplate, and running the grain parallel to the grain of the top.

 

Is that the usual orientation of the grain on a bridgeplate?

[meandi]

I see you are using flatsawn maple for the bridgeplate, and running the grain parallel to the grain of the top. Is that the usual orientation of the grain on a bridgeplate?

 

 

It is flat sawn maple, and the grain runs in line with the top grain...stronger that way.

 

The bridge plate that was replaced also had the grain running with the top grain.

[guitarcapo]

I just noticed that the pick guard might need to be replaced too.
Are you going to post sound clips?

[meandi]

I just noticed that the pick guard might need to be replaced too. Are you going to post sound clips?

 

 

It is curling in a couple of spots.

Don't know if that's an issue with him or not.

Another time, maby.

 

What's the best hosting site for audio clips?

My recording stuff is in storage at this time, but I've got several friends with studios...see what I can do.

[guitarcapo]

I usually just make a video with a typical digital camera and then use Youtube or photobucket to host it. Probably not the best sound quality using the tiny mic in a typical camera...but then again I ain't got no recording studio anyway.

[meandi]

I'm no longer directly linked to the business, but the lads were supposed to be arranging a website sometime this year although they haven't mentioned it yet. I'll give them a call and ask what the situation is, but it's never really been necessary to advertise. Speed only tends to come with practise and much of the time it's a case of not having to put much thought into the crafting technique part of things as certain aspects of the work tend to become second nature after a while. Ask me to explain something and it'll often take me far longer to write down than if I were to show by example.

Isn't it interesting how a business could actually succeed without major financial advertising commitiments.
Competance at ones work, as an effective advertising medium...what an amazing concept...

Same thing happened to me.
I started doing this almost 10 yrs ago, approaching it only as a hobby.
I was getting out of a 33 yr career as an auto painter/sheet metal fabricator, which I treated as an art form.
I knew I was going to need a creative outlet...something to build/work on with my hands/mind.
Now, all of a sudden, I've got quite a large group of gigging players that bring their stuff to me, & I never even planned for it to happen.

[Gary Palmer]

Isn't it interesting how a business could actually succeed without major financial advertising commitiments. Competance at ones work, as an effective advertising medium...what an amazing concept... Same thing happened to me. I started doing this almost 10 yrs ago, approaching it only as a hobby. I was getting out of a 33 yr career as an auto painter/sheet metal fabricator, which I treated as an art form. I knew I was going to need a creative outlet...something to build/work on with my hands/mind. Now, all of a sudden, I've got quite a large group of gigging players that bring their stuff to me, & never even planned for it to happen.

Yes it is Ray. Good workmanship always speaks for itself and tends not to need advertisement if consistancy in your output exists and you're capable of communicating well with existing and new customers. Kudos to you for finding a fresh release for your creative energies since leaving the auto painting/sheat metal fabrication industry and being capable of building a good reputation for your workmanship.

Throughout his time running the business, my grandfather made a conscious decision not to advertise, but on the basis of a solid customer base that's been built upon since my great great grandfather founded the business in 1864. Orders don't flood in, but they are consistent and easily managed via the order book system that's still in place. Sometimes an instrument will go to it's new owner and a batch of five or so orders will arrive in quick succession and on the basis of a single build. Other times orders will take a while to arrive, but the in-flux still remains steady.

Either way, business is still manageable with regular orders and without a need for publicity or advertising.

I've always had a passion for stringed instrument making and earned my pocket money from a comparitively early age through working in the workshops at weekends and alongside craftsmen during my school years. Barring a 6yr break during my university and post-university years - during which time I worked as a civil engineer - I'd very contently remained within the luthiery and cabinetmaking business until retiring almost six years ago.

I still dabble in luthiery whenever help is needed in the shop, but in a much more relaxed fashion than before.

[Jimmy Chitown]

:wave:Hey!

 

Word of mouth is the best advertising and it is highly cost-effective (being free!).

 

The HC cobbled-up Google search ain't that great and I can't find your Goldie NGD thread. Gettin' any play time on that? How you likin' it?

[meandi]

Yes it is Ray. Good workmanship always speaks for itself and tends not to need advertisement if consistancy in your output exists and you're capable of communicating well with existing and new customers. Kudos to you for finding a fresh release for your creative energies since leaving the auto painting/sheat metal fabrication industry and being capable of building a good reputation for your workmanship. Throughout his time running the business, my grandfather made a conscious decision not to advertise, but on the basis of a solid customer base that's been built upon since my great great grandfather founded the business in 1864. Orders don't flood in, but they are consistent and easily managed via the order book system that's still in place. Sometimes an instrument will go to it's new owner and a batch of five or so orders will arrive in quick succession and on the basis of a single build. Other times orders will take a while to arrive, but the in-flux still remains steady. Either way, business is still manageable with regular orders and without a need for publicity or advertising. I've always had a passion for stringed instrument making and earned my pocket money from a comparitively early age through working in the workshops at weekends and alongside craftsmen during my school years. Barring a 6yr break during my university and post-university years - during which time I worked as a civil engineer - I'd very contently remained within the luthiery and cabinetmaking business until retiring almost six years ago. I still dabble in luthiery whenever help is needed in the shop, but in a much more relaxed fashion than before.

...1864...what an incredable legacy you're involved with!