The Apprentice

[LaurentB]

VERY nicely done! This guitar is going to look much better than mine, I can already tell.

[larry50]

you complete git .... the swine has mine as well mate - apparently he can now work 2 handed. I reckon he's like Edward Scissorhands finally the end graft is finished . The inlay is glued with superglue then clamped. When the glue has set it's sanded flush with the maple surrounding it. I had to be careful and seal the surrounding wood to avoid sanding brass filings into it but all went well. A final dry try-in : then the graft is glued in place. The levelling I did using fine grit sandpaper and a scraper. The coping saw took care of the excess at the top and bottom: it took a bit of concentration to do but I like it

 

It looks like the brass knot was edged in rosewood too. How is that done?

[rickoshea]

VERY nicely done! This guitar is going to look much better than mine, I can already tell.

if it sounds anywhere near as good as yours sounds Laurent I'll be a happy chappie, and I think yours looks beautiful

[rickoshea]

linings time .... one step before the bracework which is going to be fun and we're going to step away from what might be seen as the "norm" with that

Anyway ... the kerfed lining is to provide the soundboard and backplate with a greater area to be glued to. Once fitted it'll have to be radiused to give the required curvature of the top and back so it's set in this case about 3mms above the level of the sides to allow for the radiusing (I want to avoid removing any more of the sides). Here's the "stuff" ready to go - I dry tried the linings and cut/sanded them to make sure I had a good fit against the headblock and tailblock and bevelled the junction to the blocks to get a neat fit (just for the sake of completeness you understand )



the small multicoloured clasps give great clamping pressure because French clothes pegs .... well, basically dont lol. I was going to get bulldog clamps but had already bought these and my wife will tear me a new one if I spend any more lol

The top lining is clamped up and any glue squeeze out removed with a curette (thats the one that scrapes the hell out of your teeth to remove the tartar - its perfect for removing glue, and somewhat less traumatic ) :



I used to look at pictures of guitar building and wonder what the hell all those clothes pegs were for

[gitmo]

This is why most inlays according to the sage Larry Robinson, are done in dark woods like rosewood - the gaps become invisible .

Rick, you couldn't heist some gold filling from the office for that?

The finish may fill some of the gaps.

Remarkable job, I couldn't have done that well taking twice the time.

[LaurentB]

the small multicoloured clasps give great clamping pressure because French clothes pegs .... well, basically dont lol. I was going to get bulldog clamps but had already bought these and my wife will tear me a new one if I spend any more lol

I was SO annoyed to notice that clothes pins that you buy nowadays don't have half the pressure of the forty-year old ones I have that my mother once gave to me when I went to college! They just come apart when you try to clamp anything heavier than two sheets of paper with them

[rickoshea]

I was SO annoyed to notice that clothes pins that you buy nowadays don't have half the pressure of the forty-year old ones I have that my mother once gave to me when I went to college! They just come apart when you try to clamp anything heavier than two sheets of paper with them

lol Laurent - I know, they're pathetic but what is worrying is that we are both concerned about the clamping pressure of clothes pins

[larry50]

we need to negotiate a percentage of his earnings mate for nicking our tools .... and yes, I checked Knocks link. I hate that man lol. that was a nightmare to do. I had to cut 0.5mm long lengths of rosewood veneer and fix them round the margin of the brass before inlaying it. Actually thats a slight lie lol. I think it's a happy accident ... Gary will correct me if I'm wrong in this but I think it's probably due to a micro gap round the inlay's margins. This is why most inlays according to the sage Larry Robinson, are done in dark woods like rosewood - the gaps become invisible . if it sounds anywhere near as good as yours sounds Laurent I'll be a happy chappie, and I think yours looks beautiful

Thanks Rick. The result is stunning, by the way.

[gitnoob]

it took a bit of concentration to do but I like it

Me too, but the downside is that you'll be staring at the butt of your guitar all day instead of playing it.

[bigald18]

All this guitar building talk is giving me gas to build a new guitar. I haven't done that for about twelve years! My wife will kill me if I do. Great job so far Rick.

 

BigAl

[Gary Palmer]

we need to negotiate a percentage of his earnings mate for nicking our tools .... and yes, I checked Knocks link. I hate that man lol. that was a nightmare to do. I had to cut 0.5mm long lengths of rosewood veneer and fix them round the margin of the brass before inlaying it. Actually thats a slight lie lol. I think it's a happy accident ... Gary will correct me if I'm wrong in this but I think it's probably due to a micro gap round the inlay's margins. This is why most inlays according to the sage Larry Robinson, are done in dark woods like rosewood - the gaps become invisible . if it sounds anywhere near as good as yours sounds Laurent I'll be a happy chappie, and I think yours looks beautiful

Methinks you're right on all scores mate.

First dibs on shares from loaned out Dremel earnings, but why oh why did you have to go and use the link?

I think the 0.5mm veneer idea sounded good, but yes the gaps in lighter woods often tend to be magnified as a dark border, so it's often a case of creating a deliberate edge via binding or enhancing the edge by chamfering it slightly before filling. In essence this makes the border appear deliberate instead of incidental.

Laurent's guitar sounds and looks great.

Pegs-wise...... Recalling the super human strength of ye olde worlde laundry pegs and how weak new ones are now, I prefer using medium sized (32mm) foldback clips for lining work and they work very nicely indeedy. The only problem I find with them is if one accidentally slips while you're applying it. They tend to fly off across the workshop like exocet missiles and somehow resist search and rescue attempts for periods up to six months at a time.

[rickoshea]

First dibs on shares from loaned out Dremel earnings

I wonder how much we're owed then from his job on that 1,000,000th Martin mate? lol

so the linings are glued the same way on the back ... leaving a small bit more proud of the sides compared to the top as there is a greater radius to sand in :



then it's back to the radius dishes to sand in the required slope on the kerfled lining and to shape the lining to the sides. This is the top being done on the 30' dish:



Once the radii are sanded in we need to change the lining a touch at the neck end. Here a 1.5degree flat angle is needed to run from front to back 100 - 150mms from the 14th fret position. This is to accommodate the fretboard as it rests on the soundboard from neck to soundhole and to give it a slight inclination which avoids a "hump" at the 14th fret and makes setting action easier. Here you can see the 1.5deg on a radiussed block I made before starting ... it's very slight but important:



The correct plane is checked and sanded in with a large flat sanding board.

Radiussing finished I had to glue in the side reinforcement strips. I used a sliding bevel to get them evenly set up on the opposite sides of the guitar (probably unnecessary but what the hell ):



glued them up and clamped them on :



the glue squeeze out is removed and the strips are chamfered a touch into the kerfed lining to make them look nicer :



and my first set of sides is finished .... I've learned a lot for next time but thankfully no daft balls ups on the way :



now the fun bit ..... bracing the soundboard and backplate

[LaurentB]

Damn, I like that tailpiece in there...

[Gary Palmer]

I wonder how much we're owed then from his job on that 1,000,000th Martin mate? lol

No doubt something close to zero.

[rickoshea]

No doubt something close to zero.

knowing our luck mate you're dead right lol


on to bracing then .....

everyone has their own preferences as to the tone they prefer from their git (and indeed what effects this tone ). This is a hugely complicated thing of which I know .... very little lol. I do know that for me the tone of the Yamaha LL series takes some beating. I prefer that balanced tone ... similar to a couple of my Crafters so thats what we're going for with this guitar.
LMI provide great plans with their kits but the bracing pattern is a pretty standard one and I wanted to step away a bit from that. So .... a copy of the Yamaha LL series bracework is on the cards. It's along the lines of this :



Gary kindly provided me with technical drawings of the exact layout (many thanks mate ) and these were plotted onto a bit of clear acrylic :



the profiling of the braces is different in a lot of respects to the "norm" but thats for later. 2mm holes were drilled in all the junction areas so I could transfer it all onto the soundboard :



in a sort of a "join the dots" fashion :



and finally layed out ready for starting on the bracework :

[rickoshea]

bracing is perhaps a fine line between keeping the bracework fine enough to allow the top to shine and give the nirvana of tone but not too fine that the guitar explodes with subsequent pecker amputation. With this in mind LMI's X braces were too thick by 2mms so out came the shooting board and the trusty plane again :



that done they needed radiussed to give em a curve which will be transferred to the top when glued ... so its back to the radius dishes :



having also radiussed my fingers finally they're done :



In the Yamaha LL series the x braces lie at right angles to each other .... and each needs to be notched so they fit closely together where they cross. The notch is marked :



and cut, with final refinement using files for a close fit :



and the final try in on the soundboard :





all fits fine

oh ... Happy Paddys Day

[LaurentB]

Ok, maybe you explained this earlier, but how did you get those radius dishes?

[rickoshea]

Ok, maybe you explained this earlier, but how did you get those radius dishes?

I made them Laurent (not wanting to buy them and pay a fortune lol). If you look at the first or second page theres a few pics of a jig that Gary sent me the plans for. Its basically a "sled" which is radiussed to 30' for one and 15' for the other. You cut a 600mm diameter disc of MDF ... or pine as I did cause I cant find MDF here ... and spin this as you move the router down the jig. This gives a progressively deeper cut as you move towards the centre and finally a perfect radius to which you stick the sandpaper. I fixed the dishes to some agglomerate to keep them from warping and allow me to fix them to my bench. One thing I didnt know about radiussing ... its bloody hard work

Theres another way to make them if you want to avoid the mountains of sawdust that result from routing one :

http://www.anzlf.com/viewtopic.php?t=231&highlight=radius+dish

I don't think it would be quite as accurate as the routed dish though

[LaurentB]

I made them Laurent (not wanting to buy them and pay a fortune lol). If you look at the first or second page theres a few pics of a jig that Gary sent me the plans for. Its basically a "sled" which is radiussed to 30' for one and 15' for the other. You cut a 600mm diameter disc of MDF ... or pine as I did cause I cant find MDF here ... and spin this as you move the router down the jig. This gives a progressively deeper cut as you move towards the centre and finally a perfect radius to which you stick the sandpaper. I fixed the dishes to some agglomerate to keep them from warping and allow me to fix them to my bench. One thing I didnt know about radiussing ... its bloody hard work Theres another way to make them if you want to avoid the mountains of sawdust that result from routing one : http://www.anzlf.com/viewtopic.php?t=231&highlight=radius+dish I don't think it would be quite as accurate as the routed dish though

Ahaa, I more or less understand. Well, since I built mine in my own room it wouldn't have been an option with that pile of sawdust.

But you use this for radiussing the braces? Why does it have to be a circular dish then, why not make a kind of U-shaped piece that you could sand the braces in? Or is it used to put the top and back in as well, when you glue the braces on?

[Gary Palmer]

Ahaa, I more or less understand. Well, since I built mine in my own room it wouldn't have been an option with that pile of sawdust. But you use this for radiussing the braces? Why does it have to be a circular dish then, why not make a kind of U-shaped piece that you could sand the braces in? Or is it used to put the top and back in as well, when you glue the braces on?

The reason for using a circular dish is that the soundboard is radiused on a 360degree arc. The back braces can be radiused and clamped using a lateral/U-shaped dish or set of radiused bars, but the back radius still follows a 360degree arc.

In essence both soundboard and backplate surfaces are segments of two differently radiused domes with their apex set at 3mm and the other at 6mm above the rims and centrepoint of the instrument.

--------

I may well be patenting the jig I designed for making the dishes. Joking. If anyone needs a copy of the jig design - that can be adapted to match any router base - just send me a PM and I'll gladly forward a free copy.

[LaurentB]

 

The reason for using a circular dish is that the soundboard is radiused on a 360degree arc. The back braces can be radiused and clamped using a lateral/U-shaped dish or set of radiused bars, but the back radius still follows a 360degree arc. In essence both soundboard and backplate surfaces are segments of two differently radiused domes with their apex set at 3mm and the other at 6mm above the rims and centrepoint of the instrument.

 

 

Ok, if it's meant for clamping the braces to the back and top as well I understand.

 

With the StewMac kit they just have you clamp the radiussed braces on the back and front without a dish.

 

But, let me get this straight: are the back and top already radiussed before the braces are glued on, or are they forced into that shape by the braces?

[Gary Palmer]

The backplate and soundboard arrive jointed, but flat and un-radiused.

This LMI bracing came profiled (Cross section), but un-radiused and unprocessed bracing stock is also un-radiused. Bracing is the build element that holds both soundboard and backplate to their desired curves. Using radiused dishes and go-decks is one possible route when forming/clamping braces and plates into position whilst the glue sets, but there are quite a few other ways of carrying out the same operation.

If you don't plan to produce more than one instrument it's often best to go with the simplest justifiable route, but it pays to plan ahead in terms of tools and equipment if you intend to build more.

[LaurentB]

Ok, perfectly clear!

[rickoshea]

we had to make a bit of a decision about these braces ..... basically there has to be enough material remaining to enable its removal after the brace work is glued to the top to "voice" the guitar. On the other hand you have to leave enough to give the top adequate strength to resist the massive tension imparted by the strings and avoid the aformentioned "explosive guitar" effect

So basically the braces supplied were a touch too short to leave much margin for playing with the tone thats going to be produced when all is finished. This caused me a minor crisis with visions of heading into the nearby forest to search out a Spruce and fell the bugger under cover of night so I could make some new braces. Either that or have to buy some (despite a very kind offer made by a certain Mr Palmer to send some over to me )
I had already trimmed up the brace work a touch and laid it out on the top (the x braces look too short here) :



The solution lay in laminating spare wood onto the existing x braces and the lower face braces (those are the fellas that stretch across the lower bout region from the x brace). As LMI had already prepared the braces with a bottom to top radius I had to remove a few mms from the top to leave a flat surface to glue to ... an accurate few mms at that. The router was the way to go so I made a jiggy affair to which I could attach the offending braces and chop the top off with a flush cutting router bit :



the top duly chopped I prepared some "grafts" from some spare that was left over after the initial brace trimming, and glued them onto the braces:



then shaped them and planed/sanded them flush :



its a good plan to strengthen the x brace joint - a wee bit of extra insurance so to speak. Another bit of spare is used to make a reinforcing strip that is inlaid into the x braces by cutting channels into both :



the splint is glued up and clamped after checking the layout on the pre-marked soundboard:



now we have enough to be able to work on the sound that'll be produced by the braced top .... thats next

[Gary Palmer]

Everything will clean up very nicely once it's set in place.