Members Grant Harding Posted January 4, 2011 Members Share Posted January 4, 2011 We're gonna junk-food 'em to death - make 'em too obese to work and clog their collective arteries - thus eliminating any competition. Aren't chemical weapons banned as part of the Geneva Convention? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted January 4, 2011 Members Share Posted January 4, 2011 Why did this thread turning into USA bashing (again)?Any company from any country outside of China would have a legitimate concern if their products were copied like the Martins in this article. It has nothing to do with the country of origin. It is a simple matter of theft (legalized by the Chinese government or not). Toyota would be pissed if the Chinese start building copies of their vehicles.I understand that many of the people here don't like the USA and they cling to their negative American stereotypes: That's fine (we are getting overcrowded anyways), but this issue is not an American issue. It's an ethics issue.No, I was just sticking up for Canada - I like the USA. Most of my comments in that regard are actually more like good-natured banter between allies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted January 4, 2011 Members Share Posted January 4, 2011 Well prepared Chinese food is quite delicious, Stevie. You don't know what you're missing.Just a clarification: Chinese Food = Yummy Food from China = Avoid A big dairy company in NZ sells milk powder in Ch through a distributor network. In 2008, part of the distribution chain was found to be padding baby formula powder out with melamine to raise the apparent protein content. Almost 1000 babies hospitalised and a handful of deaths. Just 4 years earlier, a similar situation, where they were cutting the powder so much that 13 babies died from malnutrition. This isn't just one person doing these things (because they execute them once the lid is off) and it's not a "youthful indiscretion from a developing country" - it's trading the health of millions of babies for more profit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guildfire Posted January 4, 2011 Members Share Posted January 4, 2011 Unlike the USA legacy of KFC, McD, Pizza Hut, Coke, Taco Bell... Still better than Canadian food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted January 4, 2011 Members Share Posted January 4, 2011 Still better than Canadian food. Not the kind that comes out of my kitchen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guildfire Posted January 4, 2011 Members Share Posted January 4, 2011 Not the kind that comes out of my kitchen! I'm sure it's yummy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted January 4, 2011 Members Share Posted January 4, 2011 This isn't just one person doing these things (because they execute them once the lid is off) and it's not a "youthful indiscretion from a developing country" - it's trading the health of millions of babies for more profit. The gist of your statement is that the Chinese are inherently immoral and unethical. That they are Baby Killers. I don't know all the facts of the case, but I do know that both Canadian and US firms have been accused of melamine contamination of food. Perhaps it was "unintentional" or not as harmful in those cases, though. I know several Chinese, and none of them are Baby Killers. However, it is fair to say that Chinese culture is different than Western culture. I honestly don't understand their value system. Does their moral and ethical foundation come from Buddhism? Do the Chinese find trademark violations as unethical as we do? At some point in our history, we obviously had to make laws to enforce the idea that trademark violations were a Bad Thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Emory Posted January 4, 2011 Members Share Posted January 4, 2011 If the guitars with the fake Martin logo are as good as a real Martin, they should do things the old fashioned way: establish a reputation for making a good guitar. That's what Martin did, along with others.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted January 4, 2011 Members Share Posted January 4, 2011 The gist of your statement is that the Chinese are inherently immoral and unethical. That they are Baby Killers.I don't know all the facts of the case, but I do know that both Canadian and US firms have been accused of melamine contamination of food. Perhaps it was "unintentional" or not as harmful in those cases, though.I know several Chinese, and none of them are Baby Killers.However, it is fair to say that Chinese culture is different than Western culture. I honestly don't understand their value system. Does their moral and ethical foundation come from Buddhism?Do the Chinese find trademark violations as unethical as we do? At some point in our history, we obviously had to make laws to enforce the idea that trademark violations were a Bad Thing.I know several Chinese people and have never had a personal issue with them. All countries are like that - most of the people are good folks that just want to get ahead in life, which is why I don't consider myself to be racist. The thing that I rebel against is organisational or institutional neglect of things that I consider important in the name of growth and profit, regardless of geographical borders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BryanMichael Posted January 4, 2011 Members Share Posted January 4, 2011 .02, my point was not to "bash the USA" but I grow ever so weary of ultra-capitalist Americans that gladly eat up the consumer-based lifestyle and go on blindly believing that somehow huge American companies have magically and morally avoided exploiting resources, labor, people, etc... and somehow have not engaged in any illegal or un-ethical practices in developing products or establishing a foothold in a market. US companies have been RUTHLESS in the past. Just some perspective. From what I understand of the Eastern mindset (which is only EASTERN because I live in the West...) is that imitation and replication is considered not only flattery, but the PROPER way to learn to do something and absorb/adapt the method into the culture as a whole. This collectivist mindset doesn't easily integrate with capitalist ideas of intellectual property and trademark law. Maybe it has something to do with a Oligarchical social structure that has been in place for millenia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tartanlad Posted January 4, 2011 Members Share Posted January 4, 2011 Well prepared Chinese food is quite delicious, Stevie. You don't know what you're missing. Well Personally ive read to much about their not so hygienic ways with regards food etc plus they feed you guys from over the pond any old dick and harry erm whatever and put certain gravys etc among such to make it taste gdMissing out NO WAY ..Im missing out on eating WHAT LOLIve read about such in my own Country also in the UK things found in their carryouts which was parts of dogs etc YUK plus the trading standards have had to close down some Chinese after warnings about their poor Hygiene ..you can very well stick to Chinese thats yer own prerogative as it is mine and many others i know "NOT TO" also we have noticed in this country they the Chinese dont speak to the locals unless they want money just are not a friendly lotAs for our Trading Standards then they have caught them out not to be very hygienic and one other Chinese shop locally has already had a warning about such as was checked out about hygiene in their shop..another was closed down for such reasons..Personally i eat only British fresh produce at least i know what im eating and its delicious Mmmmmaybe thats how i look younger than ma age i hear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members katopp Posted January 4, 2011 Members Share Posted January 4, 2011 French fries are good. I thought, you called them "Freedom Fries"?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fastblueheeler Posted January 4, 2011 Members Share Posted January 4, 2011 I thought, you called them "Freedom Fries"?? That was Bush era. Now we call them evil foods forced on low income populations that cause childhood obesity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guildfire Posted January 4, 2011 Members Share Posted January 4, 2011 I thought, you called them "Freedom Fries"?? No, French fries. I have to give them credit for something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hudman Posted January 4, 2011 Members Share Posted January 4, 2011 .02, my point was not to "bash the USA" but I grow ever so weary of ultra-capitalist Americans that gladly eat up the consumer-based lifestyle and go on blindly believing that somehow huge American companies have magically and morally avoided exploiting resources, labor, people, etc... and somehow have not engaged in any illegal or un-ethical practices in developing products or establishing a foothold in a market. US companies have been RUTHLESS in the past. Just some perspective. From what I understand of the Eastern mindset (which is only EASTERN because I live in the West...) is that imitation and replication is considered not only flattery, but the PROPER way to learn to do something and absorb/adapt the method into the culture as a whole. This collectivist mindset doesn't easily integrate with capitalist ideas of intellectual property and trademark law. Maybe it has something to do with a Oligarchical social structure that has been in place for millenia? This is not a USA issue. You are twisting it to fit your narrative. Capitalism is practiced outside of the USA. Heck, the Chinese government is proving to be outstanding capitalists. They will do anything to make money. This is a question of ethics or lack there of. A Chinese company stole the design and name of a product made by another company (that happens to be in the USA) with the intention of passing it off as the real thing. The fact that American companies have done unethical things in the past does not justify the actions of this particular Chinese company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted January 4, 2011 Members Share Posted January 4, 2011 A Chinese company stole the design and name of a product made by another company (that happens to be in the USA) with the intention of passing it off as the real thing. I don't know all of the details, but it looks like they may just have exploited Martin's failure to register the trademark in China. Exploiting loopholes is an honored tradition. Every successful product has imitators. Remember the "lawsuit" Japanese guitars? The move by this particular company was bold for sure. Unethical? Certainly by our standards. We're usually a bit more coy about how we copy intellectual property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fastblueheeler Posted January 4, 2011 Members Share Posted January 4, 2011 I don't know all of the details, but it looks like they may just have exploited Martin's failure to register the trademark in China. Exploiting loopholes is an honored tradition. Every successful product has imitators. Remember the "lawsuit" Japanese guitars? The move by this particular company was bold for sure. Unethical? Certainly by our standards. We're usually a bit more coy about how we copy intellectual property. Loophole? Is that the loophole that allows you to copy a Martin guitar to the extent of using the brand name (unlike the "lawsuit" guitars) then deceiving buyers by making them think they're getting a Martin guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted January 4, 2011 Members Share Posted January 4, 2011 Loophole? Is that the loophole that allows you to copy a Martin guitar to the extent of using the brand name (unlike the "lawsuit" guitars) then deceiving buyers by making them think they're getting a Martin guitar. I'm not justifying it, but I'm pretty sure their catalog did proudly state "Made in China." And I'm pretty sure that anybody who saw one in person wouldn't mistake it for the Real Thing. So, we see a range of copying. You can find a fake Rolex. You can find a Bolex. And you can find a Timex styled like a Rolex. All of them are knock-offs, but we in the West find the fake Rolex the most repulsive. Is it that hard to imagine a culture that doesn't see a big difference between a fake Rolex and a Rolex-styled Timex? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hudman Posted January 4, 2011 Members Share Posted January 4, 2011 I don't know all of the details, but it looks like they may just have exploited Martin's failure to register the trademark in China. Exploiting loopholes is an honored tradition. Every successful product has imitators. Remember the "lawsuit" Japanese guitars? The move by this particular company was bold for sure. Unethical? Certainly by our standards. We're usually a bit more coy about how we copy intellectual property. As a general rule, most companies (USA, Japan, Canada, Germany, England, etc, etc) do not make exact copies of other company's products including the other company's name and trademarks. This not a case of an imitation - this is a case of an exact copy - down to the name. BIG difference and it seems hard for some of the folks here to comprehend. Country of origin and the company being cheated should not matter. It's wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hudman Posted January 4, 2011 Members Share Posted January 4, 2011 Loophole? Is that the loophole that allows you to copy a Martin guitar to the extent of using the brand name (unlike the "lawsuit" guitars) then deceiving buyers by making them think they're getting a Martin guitar. I agree and I question the intelligence and integrity of anyone that can defend the piece of {censored} company for doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted January 4, 2011 Members Share Posted January 4, 2011 I'm not justifying it, but I'm pretty sure their catalog did proudly state "Made in China." You are correct, Sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fastblueheeler Posted January 4, 2011 Members Share Posted January 4, 2011 You are correct, Sir. Well that makes everything alright doesn't it? Why on earth would Martin get upset? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FretFiend. Posted January 4, 2011 Members Share Posted January 4, 2011 The gist of your statement is that the Chinese are inherently immoral and unethical. That they are Baby Killers.I don't know all the facts of the case, but I do know that both Canadian and US firms have been accused of melamine contamination of food. Perhaps it was "unintentional" or not as harmful in those cases, though.I know several Chinese, and none of them are Baby Killers.However, it is fair to say that Chinese culture is different than Western culture. I honestly don't understand their value system. Does their moral and ethical foundation come from Buddhism?Do the Chinese find trademark violations as unethical as we do? At some point in our history, we obviously had to make laws to enforce the idea that trademark violations were a Bad Thing. Mao may be dead and gone, but he ain't forgotten. China is still a COMMUNIST nation. It is ruled by the Chinese Communist Party. Morality, ethics, honesty, and integrity are irrelevant to communists, practically by definition. Adhering to the communist doctrines are all that is on the minds of the Chinese leadership. The rest of the world has preferred to sweep that ugly fact under the rug, preferring to paint China as a progressive nation, because China can produce so much, so cheaply. China is competitive because it exploits its people, its resources, its environment without regard for their well-being. Just because a lot of people want to ignore those facts, doesn't change them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted January 4, 2011 Members Share Posted January 4, 2011 Well that makes everything alright doesn't it? Why on earth would Martin get upset? Martin is upset at everyone who copied their dreadnought design. You will say "but that is alright." The Chinese would say "yes, and so is copying everything else." It's a different view on "right." What makes our intellectual property laws the Right Ones? Violations of intellectual property rights in Asia is so rampant, that I can only guess that they see the ethical issues a bit differently than we do. The alternative view is that the Chinese have no ethics. I'm not sure I buy that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FretFiend. Posted January 4, 2011 Members Share Posted January 4, 2011 ...Violations of intellectual property rights in Asia is so rampant, that I can only guess that they see the ethical issues a bit differently than we do. The alternative view is that the Chinese have no ethics. I'm not sure I buy that. You are making a lot of arguments and conclusions here based on guesses. Could it be some progressive naivete clouding your judgment?Have you considered that the Chinese, or more specifically, the Chinese Communist government truly does not have ethics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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