C.F. Martin victim of trademark nightmare

[gitnoob]

 

Given the gigantic scale of the guitar industry in China I would like to know where the wood is coming from. Since China now owns so much of the world, they could be just stripping forests in poor countries and leaving a barren mess. The cost to the manufacturer would be ridiculously low. Unless they have some sort of environmental and social agenda to accompany their supply chain (hahahahaha).

 

 

I'm sure you're aware that China is large geographically. They exploit their forests just like we did (and still do). And I'm sure they'll learn forest management, just like we did.

 

FWIW, the forests of Tibet produce some desirable tonewoods.

[larry50]

Why is the US even trading with the PRC? It's a very warped place. Its industrial rise was financed by Japan & the West. And now, it shows its gratitude. Remember that, next time you shop at Wal-Mart. This sort of trade name infringement is very common. But to be so brazen as to claim CF Martin's booth at a trade show. That's taking it to a whole new level. BTW, there is more than just the trade name infringement issue. The Chinese CF Martin company might still might be found liable for infringement of patented or copyrighted design features. And CF Martin by-all-means should sue in a US Court. At least, they can get a judgment in their favor, whatever else they collect. And if those things are sold outside borders, real world rules on intellectual property start to apply.

 

 

How would they establish jurisdiction in a US Court over a foreign defendant such as that?

 

The problem is the total absence and/or enforcement of Chinese IP laws. My clients assume that they are going to be ripped off in China somewhere down the line.

[Grant Harding]

I wasn't singling out the US. I was merely pointing out that even the "enlightened" West is not free of corruption or abuse. It wasn't that long ago that our rivers caught fire here. China is an emerging nation, and they are being transformed economically. That transformation doesn't happen overnight. I'm sure you're aware that China is large geographically. They exploit their forests just like we did (and still do). And I'm sure they'll learn forest management, just like we did. FWIW, the forests of Tibet produce some desirable tonewoods.

They don't need any transformation - the war is over and they won. Emerging nation? Give me a break - they're one of the oldest cultures on earth. I'll stop there since they've probably already located me and put me on the "enemy of the state" list due to the keywords in this thread...

[Etienne Rambert]

 

How would they establish jurisdiction in a US Court over a foreign defendant such as that? The problem is the total absence and/or enforcement of Chinese IP laws. My clients assume that they are going to be ripped off in China somewhere down the line.

 

 

How? Service of process. Defendant is served but doesn't respond. Judgment by Default for Plaintiff.

 

It happens a lot. In fact, I recommend it in cases like these. The plaintiff probably won't recover anything.

But a judgment can sit on the books for a long time. It can be enforced in other countries the defendant

does business in, outside the PRC. I have a German friend who just served a judgment on a PRC

company at a trade show in Germany. He sued for breach of contract in a US Court*. Defendant was served.

Defendant did not respond. Judgment registered in Germany. PRC company shows up for a trade show.

 

"Hello! I have some papers here for you."

 

"No speakee English,

 

I just taught a class on international law. There are some fun ways to sue foreign companies.

 

(*Plaintiff is owner of a US company & permanent resident of the US).

[larry50]

 

Service of process. Defendant is served but doesn't respond. Judgment by Default for Plaintiff. It happens a lot. In fact, I recommend it in cases like these. The plaintiff probably won't recover anything. But a judgment can sit on the books for a long time. I just taught a class on international law.

 

 

But the judgment is still vulnerable to an attack on subject matter and due process grounds. Service doesn't matter if the court could not acquire jurisdiction in the first instance. A lot of my colleagues are filing suit in Hong Kong instead. Some of the larger Chinese companies have a banking presence here now, which would give a plaintiff a bit more of a leg up on the jurisdiction issue. But the little guys selling Gibson and Martin knock-offs in backway alley stores or on-line are too hard and too expensive to go after, and the Chinese won't lift a {censored}ing finger.

[Etienne Rambert]

 

Given the gigantic scale of the guitar industry in China I would like to know where the wood is coming from. Since China now owns so much of the world, they could be just stripping forests in poor countries and leaving a barren mess. The cost to the manufacturer would be ridiculously low. Unless they have some sort of environmental and social agenda to accompany their supply chain (hahahahaha).

 

 

The wood comes from SE Asian rain forests, from Indonesia up to Burma, northern Thailand, Laos & Vietnam.

It's often cured in Taiwan.

[larry50]

 

Sure, the judgment is open to attack. But they'd have to hire lawyers & appear in court to attack it. Heh heh... Sure, but then you've forced them to hire a lawyer & appear in court, haven't you? The wood comes from SE Asian rain forests, from Indonesia up to Burma, northern Thailand, Laos & Vietnam. It's often cured in Taiwan.

 

 

Appearing in court to contest jurisdiction is not a general appearance. Hiring a local Chinese attorney would be no big deal, at least here in LA.

[Etienne Rambert]

 

Oy. Doesn't anybody remember their history? Cheap Japanese knock-offs? This is how commerce evolves. The Japanese now produce quality goods that compete on their own merits. Of course, there has never been trademark infringement in the US, right? Ask any collector of vintage Martins if they've ever encountered a Martin-clone. A US-made Martin clone, made in the 19th century. Chinese consumers are the ones hurt by infringement like this. As they become more wealthy, they will become more powerful, and Chinese corruption will be reduced. At least, that's the way it worked here and elsewhere.

 

 

I'm not nearly as optimistic as you.

[larry50]

 

Well, I'm not saying it's a sure thing. I'm saying that's how you do it.

 

 

I don't entirely disagree with you. Only costs a few hundred bucks to file a complaint, and then the cost of service, which you can do through the US Embassy. You might get lucky, Who knows, but it's certainly a nothing ventured - nothing gained scenario.

[Sangemon]

There's an interesting thread on UMGF which contains a statement from a CFM representative:

Like many other American companies, C. F. Martin & Co., Inc. has become the victim of unauthorized registration of its traditional trademark and of counterfeiting of its products in the People

[gitnoob]

 

I'm not nearly as optimistic as you.

 

 

Taiwan offers a model. Same people. Same culture. They used to be rampant violators of intellectual property laws. Now, they innovate and offer OEM services to US firms.

 

Same with South Korea.

 

I am optimistic that China will eventually be known for innovation and quality. Chinese culture values education and success.

[epi56ebony]

That really sucks for everyone, these things end up being sold all over the place. Be even more carefull when buying. Doing business with China is slicing your own throat.

 

 

If you buy from a dealer you really don't need to be careful about authenticity. Even if it's used the dealer takes responsibility for the instrument.

 

Buy on Craigslist and EBAY then you take your chance and you better know your guitars and that's your choice to take that chance. Ebay does offer 30 day protection policy that a seller can offer. I wouldn't buy from an Ebay seller w/o this protection

[masterbuilt]

There are excellent quality Chinese-made instruments that are, in fact, sold every day in this country (USA). In the world of ukulele, we have some very high-quality instruments coming here from Ohana, Kala, Mainland, and other manufacturers. These ukuleles are great values and the quality is improving with very order fulfillment. So, it is not all bad.

 

What angers me is that commodity goods, like clothing sold at Walmart, continue to be made cheaper with poor-grade raw materials primarily due to the "labels" that license them to be made in third-world countries. Buy a shirt from a local department store and it falls apart after a few washings, or it shrinks to high-heavens. That is a regular event these days.

 

Chinese "licensed" manufacturers can make great products with high-quality raw materials if they are allowed to do so. Unfortunately, there is also the risk of counterfeits being produced and shipped out the back door or from some little hole-in-the-wall operation down the block. It all depends on the integrity of the people involved.

 

I deal with ukulele manufacturers all the time and fortunately for that industry, many of the people involved are pretty heavily involved and in direct contact in China with the factories themselves. Louis Wu from Ohana Ukuleles spends a lot of time going to Hong Kong and mainland China. Louis lives in California and is a top-shelf kind of guy.

[Grant Harding]

I'm not American, but it's interesting to see such a positive attitude toward a country that's destroying yours. I'm sure that once they finish sucking ALL of your money offshore they'll take care of you though - you're in very compassionate hands.

 

It just astounds me that the USA can't compete in this market anymore (other than small high-end niches), having been the leaders for 100 years.

[totamus]

 

I'm not American, but it's interesting to see such a positive attitude toward a country that's destroying yours. I'm sure that once they finish sucking ALL of your money offshore they'll take care of you though - you're in very compassionate hands. It just astounds me that the USA can't compete in this market anymore (other than small high-end niches), having been the leaders for 100 years.

 

 

Well Put. Marx said a capitalist will sell you the rope that you plan to hang him with.

[gitnoob]

 

I'm not American, but it's interesting to see such a positive attitude toward a country that's destroying yours. I'm sure that once they finish sucking ALL of your money offshore they'll take care of you though - you're in very compassionate hands. It just astounds me that the USA can't compete in this market anymore (other than small high-end niches), having been the leaders for 100 years.

 

 

In the 1980's, Japan was the Great Menace. They were making better electronics, better cars, and buying up some of our best companies and real estate. People were sure they were set on a course of World Domination.

 

Instead, they had two decades of deflation and virtually zero economic growth since those heady days.

 

China is creating over 1 billion new consumers. It will be difficult for them to manage that growth, and chances are good that they'll experience something like Japan's stagnation. But those billion new consumers represent the best hope for Good Ol' Capitalist USA.

[blue2blue]

Why is the US even trading with the PRC?

Don't get out much, anymore, huh?

 

I share your likely disdain for the Chinese political establishment's heavy-handed political control (oligarchic dictatorship works for me as an appropriate descriptive) -- but the US could no more easily stop trading with the Chinese at this point than it could stop burning oil and gasoline.

[kwakatak]

I only hope you're right, gitnoob, but it sounds like you've been drinking somebody's special Kool Aid. I think the sentiment about the blame being on the American consumer is correct however. Too many here feel overly entitled and it's sinking us as a country. Too bad the "Greatest Generation" that pulled us out of the Great Depression is all but gone and we're stuck with their spoiled kids as our role models.

[gitnoob]

 

Too many here feel overly entitled and it's sinking us as a country.

 

 

Yup, I think "entitlement" and "contentment" are both bigger enemies than China. Not to mention some nasty demographic trends.

 

The Chinese can be ruthless capitalists. Americans used to be.

 

I guess that's why I like the Chinese. They remind me of the US circa 1950. Sort of a "get 'er done" attitude.

 

Competition can only be good for what ails us.

[kwakatak]

 

Yup, I think "entitlement" and "contentment" are both bigger enemies than China. Not to mention some nasty demographic trends. The Chinese can be ruthless capitalists. Americans used to be. I guess that's why I like the Chinese. They remind me of the US circa 1950. Sort of a "get 'er done" attitude.

 

 

Hardly, but you're entitled to your opinion. I don't feel like arguing right now.

[gitnoob]

Man, am I the only one here who actually enjoys arguing?

 

I'll clarify a bit just to say I'm not talking about the Chinese government. I think capitalism will topple that structure. Even native-born Chinese distrust their government at all levels and expect corruption.

 

But take a look at any of the top graduate school programs in the US, and you will see a culture that thrives on competition and excellence. China is not just about cheap labor.

[Orygun]

Man, am I the only one here who actually enjoys arguing? I'll clarify a bit just to say I'm not talking about the Chinese government. I think capitalism will topple that structure. Even native-born Chinese distrust their government at all levels and expect corruption. But take a look at any of the top graduate school programs in the US, and you will see a culture that thrives on competition and excellence. China is not just about cheap labor.

It's also about exporting substandard products that can put lives in danger.

[Michael Martin]

 

But take a look at any of the top graduate school programs in the US, and you will see a culture that thrives on competition and excellence. China is not just about cheap labor.

 

True fukkin' dat. My Chinese (and Korean) students are among the most competitive. Great attitudes, powerful work ethic. Sorry to stereotype but it us whut it [by damn] is.

[Chordchunker]

Man, am I the only one here who actually enjoys arguing? I'll clarify a bit just to say I'm not talking about the Chinese government. I think capitalism will topple that structure. Even native-born Chinese distrust their government at all levels and expect corruption. But take a look at any of the top graduate school programs in the US, and you will see a culture that thrives on competition and excellence. China is not just about cheap labor.

 

No I like it too..lol.. It`s better than throwing darts then running..

[Grant Harding]

 

Yup, I think "entitlement" and "contentment" are both bigger enemies than China. Not to mention some nasty demographic trends. The Chinese can be ruthless capitalists. Americans used to be. I guess that's why I like the Chinese. They remind me of the US circa 1950. Sort of a "get 'er done" attitude. Competition can only be good for what ails us.

What we're talking about isn't competition and it isn't capitalism. It's the emergence of a massive socialist monopoly that has been "competing" with unfair government-subsidised dumping at the expense of the environment and human rights controls. OK - so maybe they are like the "old" USA, but that doesn't make it right.

 

Your buddy that started Walmart should be the US ambassador to PRC.