Looks like I'm gonna try and build a guitar...

[Gary Palmer]

 

Originally Posted by kwakatak

Thanks, Gary, I'll definitely check out Cumpiano's book on guitar building. My friend has mentioned another by Alex Willis but like you said, it's good to seek as much information as possible.

 

I'm not familiar with Alex Willis, but I'll have a word with one of my brothers regarding reading matter, as he's constantly sourcing literature. My son bought copy of Cumpiano's book and it seems to be a very informative read. I'd recommend it as a pretty solid baseline.

[kwakatak]

Originally Posted by Gary Palmer

I'm not familiar with Alex Willis, but I'll have a word with one of my brothers regarding reading matter, as he's constantly sourcing literature. My son bought copy of Cumpiano's book and it seems to be a very informative read. I'd recommend it as a pretty solid baseline.

The reviews on amazon aren't as good as on the Cumpiano book. From what I understand he's only been building since 2003 and in his book his build features a Spanish heel. IIRC they're very difficult to repair.

I honestly haven't thought of the neck at all; I want to concentrate on building and voicing the body. It's going to basically be a learning experience for me and my friend. He's generously providing me access to his shop and some materials. The way I see it, it will take as long as it takes. I'm pretty absent-minded so I'm going to have to measure 5-6 times before doing any cutting.

[kwakatak]

I don't have anything to really show yet other than what's going on in my head. There's a sweet cedar/mahogany R Taylor style 1 for sale on AGF that pretty much mirrors what I want to do. It has rosewood trim which looks niiiice.

I still haven't purchased the plans yet though. The kids have been driving us crazy and things are pretty tense so my wife's even less enthusiastic about my diversions than normal.

What I've been thinking about most lately is building the frame. I know that particle board will do but I don't know how much I'll need exactly. A 4'x8' sheet might be way too much - that is unless I can't just take the cutouts from the mold and use them make the template for the bender. If anybody could weigh in on that I'd like to know just to set my mind at ease. Gary? Freeman? Anyone?

[Gary Palmer]

Originally Posted by kwakatak

I don't have anything to really show yet other than what's going on in my head. There's a sweet cedar/mahogany R Taylor style 1 for sale on AGF that pretty much mirrors what I want to do. It has rosewood trim which looks niiiice.

I still haven't purchased the plans yet though. The kids have been driving us crazy and things are pretty tense so my wife's even less enthusiastic about my diversions than normal.

What I've been thinking about most lately is building the frame. I know that particle board will do but I don't know how much I'll need exactly. A 4'x8' sheet might be way too much - that is unless I can't just take the cutouts from the mold and use them make the template for the bender. If anybody could weigh in on that I'd like to know just to set my mind at ease. Gary? Freeman? Anyone?

I'd recommend you go with whichever timber combination and body style you'd prefer on a personal level. I would however recommend considering the use of a slipper style head block as it tends to provide more stability over the long term and reduces the likelihood of a premature need for neck re-setting.

Which frame are you considering the particle board for? If for a Fox style bender I'd stick with either plywood or MDF and it's well worth considering the use of a heat blanket, with temp control switch and a pair of 6" x 36" spring steel guide sheets to sandwich the blanket and side set during the bending process.

Quantity-wise, much depends on the thickness of the sheet material you're using, but I'd tend to keep away from particle board as it can often shed particles while sometimes. Gauge the bending unit as being 6" in width and you won't go far wrong with sheet materials.

The simplest route is to use something akin to an Ibex bending iron (They're not difficult to use), as it gives you more of a feel for the work and tends to prove less expensive unless building more than one instrument.

I'd recommend working from plans or an existing instrument who's detail can then be transposed onto working templates and moulds. Design-wise, I typically run off one full sized diagram with scale length and bracing patterns illustrated and then produce my templates from it. Template materials can be anything ranging from 1/4" MDF to plywood and on to sheet metal or plastics.

[Freeman Keller]

First comment, Cumpiano is one of the classic books and should be in everyone's reference library. He describes very thoroughly each step of building both a Spanish heel classical and a steel string using his own kind of funky bolt on neck (he has since modified that design - maybe newer copies of his book have the revisions). He builds on a workboard (which is a classic technique) but many of us use body molds now. He spends a lot of time talking about traditional methods of doing things - thicknessing plates with planes, spokeshaving necks - that the first time builder (or a kit builder) will not have to do (I take my plates to a cabinet shop and the run them thru the thickness planer, and while I have carved necks, that seems like a good place for a cnc mill).

Along with Cumpiano, Kinkead is a good one

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Books,_p...ic_Guitar.html

I would also recommend Bill Cory's book on kits - it is pretty general but has a lot of basic information. Download the free pdf instructions from StewMac and will as Ken's great information

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/kitmanual.html

When you get read to finish, Dan Erlewine's book is highly recommended.

Go to the new kit forum and hang out - I've posted some build threads in the archives as well as a little article on the minimum shop for a kit build.

Notice as you read these things that people do things differently. Cumpiano builds on a solera, StewMac uses an simple internal mold, Kinkead and others an external mold. Many ways to skin the cat - think about what it is you are trying to accomplish.

OK, now to the mold. I've posted pictures of how I have done it before, here is the simple method. Take your plans to Kinkos or an architect an have a couple of full sized copies made. Get some 3/4 MDF (recommended) or particle board and cut four pieces a bit larger than your guitar. Clamp all four together, cut out one of your plans and trace the shape on the boards - line it up so the centerline is on one edge. Cut them out together - I use a band saw however a saber saw will work. Keep the cutout pieces, you will make your waist expander from them.

Sand all four pieces together. If you are bending your own sides you can use the clamped pieces as your bending mold. Now flip two of them over, put the centers together and put one or two 3/4 inch pieces across the neck and butt end - you want the mold to be just a little thinner than the shallowest part of the body (the neck heel). I use flat headed carriage bolts to clamp everything together, cut the bolts off flush with the nut heads (the nuts are a bit of a hassle but I haven't come up with a better way).

Cut the middle pieces down to a reasonable size and glue two pairs together to make your waist expander (since they were cut out of the MDF they will fit the waist perfectly. Chisel a couple of notches in them for a turnbuckle and presto!. Some people make multiple expanders - upper and lower bout and possibly length - I've found the waist to be sufficient.

I'm shooting blind here (can't view my photobucket pics on my work pc) but I think this is a picture of the mold

[Gary Palmer]

Originally Posted by kwakatak

The reviews on amazon aren't as good as on the Cumpiano book. From what I understand he's only been building since 2003 and in his book his build features a Spanish heel. IIRC they're very difficult to repair.

I honestly haven't thought of the neck at all; I want to concentrate on building and voicing the body. It's going to basically be a learning experience for me and my friend. He's generously providing me access to his shop and some materials. The way I see it, it will take as long as it takes. I'm pretty absent-minded so I'm going to have to measure 5-6 times before doing any cutting.

Kinkead is another author to keep your eyes open for as his steel string and classical guitar build book is supposed to be pretty good.

Neck-wise you can use either Mahogany or Spanish Cedar, as both carve easily if you're heading the entire build it yourself route. For a first build you're possibly best advised to utilise a bolted mortise and tenon neck joint with potential to buy a pre-made paddle or slot headed neck from LMI or Stewmac.

Are you going to head the kit, partially prepared, or scratch build route?

[Freeman Keller]

I'll also add my humble opinions on neck heels. I have built several dovetails (I did not make the dovetail itself, they were premade necks) - they are a hassle but worth the learning experience, particularly if you want to work on guitars. I've also built one Spanish heel (the classic neck for a classical). Everything that I am doing now is straight two bolt bolt on - no glue in the joint, a very small amount under the f/b (on the tricone it is bolted down in the traditional fashion). A bolt on neck is much easier for a home builder, certainly a whole lot simplier if you are going to carve you own neck. There are some pretty cool techniques for making the neck heel on a table saw - if you want to do that I can send links.

I've carved my own necks and it is both rewarding and frustrating. Once again, do it if you want the experience, but there is nothing wrong with buying a nice cnc'ed neck from LMI, SM, Hanalei Moon. I would say the same thing about bending sides and mitering fretboards - do them if you want too (and have the tools) but for a one shot I would recommend letting someone else do it (I watched Charles Fox demonstrate his bender and break a nice mahogany side).

As I've said before, the big advantage of a quality kit is that the things that take special tools or technique are done for you, but you still get the pleasure of the build. (of course if you are taking a class from Tim McKight or John Hall or Gary Palmer where the tools are available more power to you).

[kwakatak]

That's a lot of information and I don't have the time to disseminate it all, but let me touch upon a couple of points:

1: I'm not under the tutelage of a luthier. My friend Yamaha Junkie is just learning himself but has most of the tools and a dedicated workshop big enough for the two of us to work. I helped him start his second build and he's said he'll tell me if he sees me make the same mistakes he made with his first build.

2: this isn't a kit build, though the necks are pre-shaped. Even though I believe a lot of the tools and materials came from Blues Creek everything else is still in board form so I have to join the top and back and bend the sides. We already have the mahogany which YJ describes as being Martin 15 series quality but I might have to purchase the WR cedar from LMI.

[knockwood]

 

Originally Posted by Gary Palmer

Kinkead

 

I will second Kinkead. Not that I've had the opportunity yet to apply his instruction practically, but I like the book a lot in that it is extremely easy to follow. Cumpiano's book is great in that it imparts a ton of information, but for a total novice it is often quite esoteric and difficult to follow. Kinkead, by contrast, gives the reader much of the same information but communicates it in such a way as to make it intellectually accessible to an absolute noob. In particular, I like Kinkead's neck/headstock assembly instruction. Guy makes it look easy (I'm sure it is not).

[Gary Palmer]

Originally Posted by kwakatak

That's a lot of information and I don't have the time to disseminate it all, but let me touch upon a couple of points:

1: I'm not under the tutelage of a luthier. My friend Yamaha Junkie is just learning himself but has most of the tools and a dedicated workshop big enough for the two of us to work. I helped him start his second build and he's said he'll tell me if he sees me make the same mistakes he made with his first build.

2: this isn't a kit build, though the necks are pre-shaped. Even though I believe a lot of the tools and materials came from Blues Creek everything else is still in board form so I have to join the top and back and bend the sides. We already have the mahogany which YJ describes as being Martin 15 series quality, but I might have to purchase the WR cedar from LMI.

Regardless of who's teaching who, I think each of you should be more than capable of producing something nice and highly playable for yourselves. Try to read up on deflection testing for soundboards, backplates and bracing.

Thinking you'd be jointing the boards yourself was part of the reason I'd recommended a book on setting up, sharpening and using planes. Having a plane set up nicely for the job in hand makes life one heck of a lot easier and imporves your facility to focus more on materials than having to mess around with a poorly set up piece of equipment. The next step is chosing between a #5, #5.5 or #6 plane for use as a jointer and making a good shooting board if YJ doesn't already have one. I tend to prefer use the longer #6 fore plane on guitar sized work as well as a sloped shooting board.

Another good tool to have in your arsenal is a Stanley/Record #80 Scraper (In addition to card scrapers) as these tools make surface dressing much simpler........ Especially if your timber experiences tear out at any stage of the process. Using such tools reduces the need for abrasive papers and helps avoid constantly having to re-sharpen tools that have been used on sanded surfaces.

[LaurentB]

Getting the neck in the right angle was the major structural hassle for me, and it was not even a dovetail but a bolt-on.
Gary gave me the tips to get that right, eventually.

Apart from that all the cosmetic things are actually the most difficult. Then it turned out to sound so good that apart from my first electric I've never played a guitar so much as this StewMac kit dreadnought.

I happened to be playing with someone owning a Martin HD-28 some weeks ago, after which it is modelled, and it compared neatly with it.

[C70man]

Always wanted to make one...so my hats off to you. Take lots of pics...I think a lot of us would enjoy following your journey....I know I will.

Freeman and others I'm sure will chime in with comments to help you along the way....best of luck...

[Freeman Keller]

Good advice from Gary on planes and scrapers (and I'll add, chisels). Over my few builds I have picked up a couple of nice members of each family, but the important part for me was learning how to sharpen them. Google "scary sharp" for planes and chisels, and learn to sharpen your scraper (your friend proabably already knows about this).

I don't know if you are going to use a go-bar deck or not - I didn't for my first couple, but after building one I'd never go back (good instructions at StewMac's site, you can get all the pieces at Lowes or Home Depot). Ditto radius dishes - there are techniques that avoid them, but they are sure nice. I only purchased a 16 footer for backs, but I use it all the time.

Spend a lot of time making clamping cauls and fixtures and jigs. I keep scraps of MDF around for this - you can use rasps and coarse sanding paper to shape things.

Part of the problem with building one or two instruments is that tooling up can get pretty expensive. That is why knowing a professional builder would be really nice - I end up jury rigging a lot of things because I just don't want to spend the money. However with each build I end up adding a tool or two that I wished I had had on the last one.

I'll try to answer any question, particularly because I can bring that newbie view on things (believe me, I've laid awake many nights thinking about how to do something). Enjoy the ride - you are in for a great experience - and please share it with us as you go along.

[kwakatak]

Thanks guys,

FWIW, here's the link to YJ's second build over at AGF. You can see that he's got a pretty complete shop set up. He's got a table dremel saw that he's used to plane the sides of the top and back to be true for joining as well as a thickness sander. He also has a go-bar deck as well.

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=188555

FWIW I helped him out a little bit when he joined the back the first time (he made a mistake with the center strip) and then he showed me how to split a billet to make back braces. He had me use 120 grit sandpaper instead of a chisel though. It was rather time consuming.

[kwakatak]

After one last check with my wife who said offhandedly "I don't care" (she's been saying that a LOT lately and it's getting on my nerves) I went ahead and ordered the plans for the OLF medium jumbo from stewmac. They should get here in the next couple of days.

In the meantime I've been scouring my local book stores for the books we've been talking about here and no such luck. Looks like I'll either have to borrow my friend's or order from amazon.

There's still no timetable to get started though. Most likely not until next month when the kids are back in school, but in the meantime I want to get that reading started and maybe get my feet wet in the workshop repairing the bridge on my Tak. Other than that there are things on my "honey do" list that I've been putting off - and are probably why my wife isn't on board with this little project.

Such is life.

[kwakatak]

Well, the plans came in the mail today and I must say that I'm impressed; they're very detailed.

The first thing I want to do is to trace an outline in posterboard and then get some materials to fashion a mold.

[Gary Palmer]

Originally Posted by kwakatak

Well, the plans came in the mail today and I must say that I'm impressed; they're very detailed.

The first thing I want to do is to trace an outline in posterboard and then get some materials to fashion a mold.

Handy hints.

Make yourself half section patterns for guitar outline and headstock outline. 1/4" hardboard, MDF or ply serves well if you've no clear acrylic sheet kicking around and you can trace your bracing patterns onto both half and full section soundboard patterns. This then leaves your plans free to post on the workshop wall for ready reference, as the only holes you really want in plans are where you perforate brace junctions (Always leading edge) during the laying out process and such holes only need to be pin hole sized.

Posterboard/card is perfectly fine for making side/rim patterns and use protecting unfinished soundboards and headstock face plates, but it's too flimsy for most other aspects of the build.

[kwakatak]

Well, given that I'm going to be working with a cedar top I don't want to use something flimsy, so I don't think I want to use anything but a clear acrylic sheet to overly the bracing.

Anyway, I went to the Home Depot today to look at materials for the mold: either 3/4" MDF or 3/4" birch plywood. The MDF looks like it would do the job and comes in 2'x4' sheets (just under $10 per sheet) vs. the birch's $50 4'x8' sheet. I was crunching the numbers and figured I need about 12 10"x24" boards cut (6 plies for each half of the mold.) That doesn't take into account mold spreaders or bending forms (which I still hope I can fashion from the cutouts from the mold.

I guess my head's not quite into this yet, so I need to get an illustrated text to wrap my head around the concepts. I'm disappointed that both Barnes & Noble and Borders Books don't carry any lutherie texts but I'm going to check Half Price Books. The local library system has a single copy of Nateson/Cumpiano's book circulating throughout the entire county.

FWIW I'm trying to keep costs down and anticipate this project taking no less than a year. I'm trying to keep my family's/household's needs in account as well.

[Freeman Keller]

Neil

1 - I have used MDF (and particle board) for all my molds. Two pieces per side have worked fine. I believe I've posted pictures. Others will do it differently

2 - Cumpiano does not build in molds, he uses a workboard or "solera". One more way to do it, perfectly fine, particularly for a classical

3 - If you PM me your snail mail addy I'll send you my copies of Cumpiano and Kincade - I trust you to return them. I can put them on UPS tomarrow.

There are also dozens of good (and bad) build threads at the kit forum, different luthier forums (I like MIMF.com) and blogs. I spent a full 6 months before building my first one reading and getting confused.

[Gary Palmer]

Originally Posted by Freeman Keller

Neil

1 - I have used MDF (and particle board) for all my molds. Two pieces per side have worked fine. I believe I've posted pictures. Others will do it differently

2 - Cumpiano does not build in molds, he uses a workboard or "solera". One more way to do it, perfectly fine, particularly for a classical

3 - If you PM me your snail mail addy I'll send you my copies of Cumpiano and Kincade - I trust you to return them. I can put them on UPS tomarrow.

There are also dozens of good (and bad) build threads at the kit forum, different luthier forums (I like MIMF.com) and blogs. I spent a full 6 months before building my first one reading and getting confused.

There's nothing more I can add apart from emphasising the need to read-up (Either Cumpiano or Kinkead, as both are good sources - Kinkead aparently includes a plan for either a GA or OM sized instrument too) and plan as much as possible BEFORE moving ahead with materials purchases. Doing things this way can save you money and from making too many mistakes in the long term.

[kwakatak]

Originally Posted by Freeman Keller

Neil

1 - I have used MDF (and particle board) for all my molds. Two pieces per side have worked fine. I believe I've posted pictures. Others will do it differently

2 - Cumpiano does not build in molds, he uses a workboard or "solera". One more way to do it, perfectly fine, particularly for a classical

3 - If you PM me your snail mail addy I'll send you my copies of Cumpiano and Kincade - I trust you to return them. I can put them on UPS tomarrow.

There are also dozens of good (and bad) build threads at the kit forum, different luthier forums (I like MIMF.com) and blogs. I spent a full 6 months before building my first one reading and getting confused.

That's mighty generous, Freeman. YJ has both texts as well as the Willis text which I have here beside me along with the plans. I intend to use MDF though J tells me that I should be able to find a 4'x8' board locally for much cheaper. He figures it's best to have it cut into 12"x24" boards and well form the mold from 4 boards glued together and cut simultaneously on his band saw - which is now running again.

The reason I was worried about the MDF was because YJ had modeled his mold after Blues Creek's molds (he has the dread and OM molds) which were made from marine grade plywood, which is very expensive and almost as solid as a rock! Turns out that that may have contributed to the difficulties he was having with his bandsaw! I assume that in relation the MDF should cut like warm butter - though YJ informs me that I need to get a mask.

Tonight I went over the YJ's place and looked at wood. He and I picked out a set of mahogany that rang nicely against a rapped knuckle (even though we're both novices) despite having a single round imperfection in the grain. For the top we did the same novice tap test and selected a set of western red cedar that is wavy in one spot but I can live with it.

The only real hangup seemed to be that the boards for the sides are about 1/8" shorter than the side diagram on the plans. Is that a deal breaker? God, I hope not. Can I adjust for it at the heel block?

As I'd mentioned before he had finished Martin necks and preslotted black ebony fretboards but they're all precut for 1 & 11/16" but that's not going to work since I want this to be a fingerstyle guitar and I prefer 1.75" nut. Looks like I'll either have to carve my own neck or order a wider neck from somewhere.

As for pics, YJ took one pic of me hunched over the plans which I'd spread on his photo studio floor along with the boards.

So it's going to be at least a week before I can head back over there. My wife is heading out of town and I'm solo with the boys until Sunday, though my mom is coming to visit and will provide moral support. I may drop offline for a bit to ponder over the build but it looks like I've officially started.

BTW, my wife told me yesterday that I seem to have too many hobbies. She was not joking.

[Gary Palmer]

ALWAYS wear a dust mask when workign with MDF. You'll have no problem in terms of stability fwhen it's used to build moulds, but I would suggest using a surface treatment such as Danish oil once the mould is completed as this helps prevent accidental glue adhesion during the build process.

Side sets can afford to be as much as 3/4" short of the drawn length as long as you build tight to the mould and plan for your heel graft and neck heel to cover up such gapping.

Another author you can look up is;

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Guitar-Maker...1501667&sr=1-6

I'm told the above book is comparitively short, but contains as much detail as you need to successfully build a very decent, well voiced instrument.

[rickoshea]

whaaaa heyyyyyyy .... good man Neil, told you it had to happen

I know the feeling about family getting in the way of building and wives being shall we say "less than positive" about it . I just viewed it as a "no hurry" thing and took whatever time I could find. I'm quite sure you'll produce a great guitar and believe me, there's nothing like playing a guitar you've built yourself - its a special thing

I'll try to help any way I can but mainly with where I nearly made a couple of balls ups (and was duly saved by Gary) to help you avoid premature hair loss lol.

I'll look forward to watching her progress

[Yamaha Junkie]

Hi folks, its been a long time! I heard I was being talked about here!
FYI- pestered to do so but does not. Tim McKnight does not offer classes. I wish he would. I have bought a few of his guitars and Photo'd all of his summer gatherings. He has been a valuable friend, so have I.
John at Blues Creek is set up as a class and a supplier. If you want to build you need to know him.
I'm happy to help out Neil. I bought a "Guitar Company" last year. The fellow had 50 sets of wood, 2 dozen martin second necks, a Uhaul of tools and more. BTW Neil I was looking at many Collings guitars yesterday. They had waves! Don't panic waves. Also, my guitar was better voiced than some of the best! OK, my first build weighed 15 ounces lighter than the same sized Collings. The shop owner said "Can you say Implode" lol
Another point/correction; Martin Kits are good seconds, LMI and Stew Mac give their best to you in their kits.
Least I could do is help Neil with a dream. Some stuff he'll have to buy. But, because of a lucky buy out I am happy to share with him. At the end I will bite his neck so I can play guitar like him!
In my buy out I got so many toys I was not familiar with. R&D was very time consuming. Tools, and building.
Note; an apprentice in a Luthier shop is like fishing with 2 kids
Neil, happy to help.
Here is Neil sayin' WTF
NOW WHATTTTTTT!!!

[kwakatak]

Hee hee hee! You didn't adequately catch my "deer in the headlights" look!

Aren't those some detailed plans though? I think I may indeed do the X bracing on the back. Isn't that what McPherson does? D'ya think it's OK to pester Tim and Mary for advice?

BTW, I played a "certified used" GS5 today at Empire (basically what I'm planning to build but man do they have a LOT of custom shop GS's too! *drool*) but I never warmed up to it. I think mine's gonna be nicer anyway!