The purpose of forums

[blueshoes22]

If I was to go to the police about this how would I do that, since I don't even live in the same country. Just ring them up and say this guy took my money. You say go to the feds. Should I call them up? Email them? How does that work. It's true he has no receipt of goods received or shipped, and I have a receipt of payment, and he's admitted guilt in all the emails he's sent me and the partial refund I got back so far... But is it a police matter??? Anyone know the answer to that? My experience of police has been that they are all but practically useless unless to a) defend you b) protect your property c) chase anyone down who has done wrong. They are very good at ripping you for money for the state, I'll give them that... but that's about it.

[blueshoes22]

I get your point...but here, your dealing with A - Corporate interests that want to shut you down B - Apathy to your cause, due to a lack of morality, ethics. C - A forum that provides service to the public, but wants the control of being private. D - Inconsistent values - Members slander each other, but can't rile against an advertiser. E - About zero interest in finding the truth or evolving the industry. This is a social medium where mutual backslapping and group, herd, lemming mentality love is found at the expense of honestly, transparency, and accountability. Finding truth on internet forums is a little bit like having a conversation with a guy that you just picked up, chasing hookers downtown. If you ask him why he's picking up hookers, cheating on his wife, screwing over his family, you will never get a good reason or rationale for it, because in the end, he's fundamentally wrong. Big props to 3gtrsftr for actually admitting this forum has sold out, try to appreciate his honestly, and don't rail at a system that is broken, because the membership couldn't care less about searching for the truth or ideal. If you want to do something about it, do what I do, and expose the morons for who they are, but it doesn't do any good to drive yourself to drinking over this.

 

 

I'll quote everything you said, because it's all good. Thanks for that. I agree. I'm not riling against the system, in fact, my question was always posed to the community, not the owners. I don't expect the owners to do a thing. My round about point that I'll now arrive at is that it's the apathy of the users that is responsible, not the lawyers, not the owners. If the users demanded something else, they would get it, or they would go elsewhere. That's what I'm getting at. Is that nobody cares that someone was ripped off and that it might be them next. A bunch of children in adults bodies making mechanical motions to complete the life they think they're living. No wonder the entire global system from the banking, media, education, political and criminal elements is built on pyramids of fraud, mass murder and criminality from top to bottom - so long as it has the appearance of legitimacy for the majority of the children, that's all they care about. And that's all they get. There are no more adults in society.

 

Thanks for your sanity dude...

[3shiftgtr]

 

What's the problem.

 

 

If you have to ask that question, then you most definitely DIDN'T get it.

 

thread/

[blueshoes22]

Sounds like that's a good thing mate.

[Anderton]

Okay, Mr. Editor in Chief here.

 

First, regarding the comment from someone else that "This site is owned by a subsidiary of MF and hasn't been a 'community site' since 2005, it's a corporate arm to generate revenue," if that's true, then it has failed miserably (and the owners prior to 2005 would be surprised to find out it wasn't intended to generate revenue. Reality check: They sold the site, they didn't give it away for free). This entire site could fit in the petty cash drawer of most music business companies. If revenue generation was the sole goal of this site, it would have been shut down long before 2005. The people responsible for buying HC back in 2005 thought it was a worthwhile site that helped the industry as a whole, and they didn't want to see it go away. They had the money, and they bought it. I signed on to move my forum here (out of seven different offers) and be Editor in Chief because I was promised complete editorial control, and that has been honored. Not once has anyone from the parent company said anything even remotely along the lines of "Hey, we have 10,000 gizmos in the warehouse we can't move, could you review them for the newsletter?" Regarding finances, my only directive was "Just try not to lose too much money, okay?" To this day, I don't know the finances of this site because it is not my concern. I assume it if was doing really badly it would be shut down and if it was doing really great we'd have more resources, so I figure it's somewhere in between.

 

Now, understanding that, and understanding that many other web sites are not exactly financial powerhouses, you can probably understand why getting involved in any protracted legal wrangling could be potentially ruinous, particularly when this is a venue that can't solve your problem, only broadcast it. You have to decide whether you want to broadcast your opinion of the company (and I have no idea, nor do I care, whether or not it's an advertiser because that's not my concern either) or whether you want to resolve your problem. If you want to resolve your problem, in my opinion you are choosing the wrong way to go about it.

 

I personally have helped resolve many consumer issues involving members of the HC community and their dealings with both companies and other HC members, but it has been exactly that - members of the community who have a reputation here and a record of contributing, and who I am happy to help in return. I rarely handle these kinds of things in public, I do it behind the scenes because resolutions have the best chance of success out of the public eye.

 

There have been people who have complained about the service they received from manufacturers, and when those complaints have appeared in user reviews, I have been contacted by several of these companies and threatened with legal action. Out of literally dozens of these situations, after investigating both sides of the story, there have been only a few times when I felt the manufacturer was definitely in the right. There was one time I told a manufacturer who had threatened to sue that if he could provide me with one phone number of a customer I could call and ask questions about his dealings with the company, I would take into account what the customer said. The phone number never arrived. The User Review stayed. We were not sued. We were never contacted again because this company realized we didn't, shall we say, look favorably on people trying to intimidate us.

 

So, why am I not springing to your defense? Many reasons. First, we usually end up wasting a lot of time trying to determine the truth of the situation. Very often the complainer will leave out a crucial piece of information to paint a prettier picture of their side of the story. Sometimes the manufacturer will have an excuse that buys time ("We told him we're backordered two months, we will ship it") and we have no idea whether the excuse is legitimate. Sometimes a situation will drag on before there's a resolution, and often, both sides are at fault to one degree or another. In most cases, a major aspect of conflict resolution occurs when both sides concede they could have handled things better, and come up with a compromise solution. You have no history on this site so the only context I have for who are, and how you conduct yourself when dealing with people, is how you've conducted yourself in this thread.

 

Second, maybe you're 100% in the right. Maybe you're 100% in the wrong. I don't know, and I've been through this song and dance enough to know that the documentation people provide may or may not tell the whole story, either. The fact that you were banned from other sites doesn't necessarily indicate to me that they're the "chickens" you claim them to be. I think it is unrealistic to expect cooperation from web sites where, if as you did here, you insulted the site, its motives, and its moderators. Maybe they simply found you to be a demanding, unwanted guest; if they did, based on how you've presented yourself here, I could understand that assessment.

 

Today is the 20th of November. You started this thread on the 18th of November, only two days ago. I was on a plane on the morning of the 18th and spent most of the day traveling and doing show prep to give seminars on the 19th, worked all day and evening on the 19th giving two seminars and participating in a Q&A panel, did not have a chance to go online and deal with the forums, and got back a few hours ago. I just found out about this thread because I'm collating the listings for this week's Forum Watch in the newsletter, saw the title, and thought that perhaps it would be an interesting, constructive discussion of the purpose of forums.

 

You have agreed that this forum is ruled by corporate interests that want to shut you down, doesn't care about your cause due to a lack of morality and ethics, has inconsistent values, won't let people rile against an advertiser (which is a total fabrication - there are plenty of rants against products and manufacturers, which you would know if you were in fact a participant in this community), and has zero interest in finding the truth or evolving the industry...and for good measure, agree that the community you want to have help you is a bunch of lemmings who lack honesty, transparency, and accountability.

 

I feel it's unreasonable to expect those for whom you express contempt to be sympathetic to you.

 

Nor is it the job of the other mods to help you. They are dedicated, intelligent volunteers who do a fantastic job handling the needs of the community, and it is not their responsibility to speak for the site or set policies (although of course, their suggestions and knowledge of the community have resulted in several policies being adopted). The editorial staff is responsible for dealing with these situations, and that's why I'm responding.

 

Finally, these kinds of disputes between third parties who we do not know, and who rarely provide 100% complete information (whether end user OR manufacturer), can turn into a real time sink that takes away from maintaining the forums, publishing the newsletter, doing video coverage, writing articles, removing spam, introducing forum topics, and so on. Now, if you were someone who contributed to the forums in the past, had a history that gave me some background on whether you're a straight shooter or not, ran into a problem, and sent me a reasonable PM asking for assistance, I would do what I could to help - as I have with dozens of others. On the other hand, as you are coming in here trashing the forums, and making a big deal about how you're going to unsubscribe and how this forum is useless, frankly, you are coming across in a manner that gives me zero incentive to help you.

 

If you truly believe you are in the right, take the company to small claims court and let us know how it turns out. Then it's not your word against theirs, it's a judgement, and one which would deserve to be broadcast as a fact. If you don't have enough confidence in your case to go to small claims court - where you can represent yourself, and the cost is next to nothing; I know several people who have won judgements - then you shouldn't expect others (especially those who know nothing about you) to have confidence in your case, either.

 

I really don't have anything else to say, and have other obligations that require my attention. So I'll re-state the best advice you've gotten here: "One thing I do know is the more you say in public the more ammunition you're giving them to use against you later."

[daddymack]

 

For example, those forums are all losing me as a contributor. They may scoff, who cares, get lost - they have plenty more. And that is certainly their attitude. Pride comes before the fall.

Well, I hate to point this out, but so far, your contribution here has been...all about you and this company not refunding all your money.

I have let this remain because it is an issue which, as long as we keep it under control, is worth discussing.

As to why we do not want to run into a libel/slander suit, let me explain that even if you win the suit, the costs are unbearable....time, lawyers, court fees, goodwill, etc.

[BlueStrat]

just bough some sound libraries and payed via PayPal, and by the holy cow Gretchen, nothing bad happen to me. Did I made something wrong?

[[Animals2]]

Next time use a credit card.

[Anderton]

 

Anderton - Thanks for taking the time to chime in. While I don't have horse in this race, do you mind if I make some observations? First off, this forum makes little effort to stop any libelous, slanderous insults to artists, bands, forum members, and major manufacturers, with many times the full blessing of the moderators. Don't believe me? PM me and we will have a nice long discussion, with proof, evidence, of complete complicity of real legal transgressions perpetrated.

 

 

You are obviously unaware of United States law regarding Bulletin Boards. I am not. If someone is slandering or libeling someone, you can sue them. If you call someone up and slander them, you don't sue the phone company because they provided a means to carry the conversation.

 

 

Your issue evidently is when 'someone calls up threatening legal action'...so evidently this forum works on the principle, that as long as no lawyers call up...'it's all good, anything goes'.

"Evidently" is a linguistic cop-out that means you are making an assumption that has no basis in anything I said. We will have a much more productive discussion if you restrict your comments to what I said, and not state your personal conjectures as fact.

I prioritize what needs to be done. If someone has a problem, I'm more likely to pay attention than if someone doesn't have a problem. I don't go looking for trouble; I deal with reported posts. That should not be hard to understand.

 

It also shouldn't be too hard to understand that keeping tabs on a site that generates around 15,000 posts a day precludes getting involved on the level you expect from people who have multiple sets of responsibilities.

 

 

Secondly, no one has asked you act as arbiter of a bad deal

No one has asked me to step in to this conversation, either. Acting as an arbiter of a bad deal is something I do as a service and favor to members of this community. They are more than happy to have me making inquiries on their behalf.

 

 

...nor does anyone require a presentation of solid evidence and proof. The day this forum actually requires members to actually 'put up or shut up'...get out from behind anonymous email addresses and all the moderator crony protected provisions provided here to posers, fakers, and wannabes...this forum would shut down in five minutes.

I would respond to your comment if I could understand what you mean by "all the moderator crony protected provisions provided here to posers, fakers, and wannabes..."

 

I use my real name. Do you?

 

 

At the end of the day, your picking and choosing what you want to be said on this forum out of fear, greed, and personal choice, not out of some higher ethical calling, legal conflict, or in ability to act as arbiter to the worlds problems.

 

 

Your vaguely incoherent assumptions are, perhaps not surprisingly, wrong. The forumites pick and choose what they say. I intervene when a situation requires it, or I am asked to do so.

 

 

If you want to prove me wrong, start with the kicking off forum members that do nothing more then call names in each post, completely protected by the mods.

 

 

Do me a favor: Before you continue to spread assumptions based on ignorance, educate yourself about the telecommunications act and laws regarding bulletin boards. You just may learn something.

[Anderton]

oh, I just see Craig opens a law office

 

If you call me a lawyer, I will have to ban you for name-calling, personal attacks, and insults.

[kanetoads]

Well call me naive then...if one mod will just admit that this forum is just a thin farce, a fake veneer of what a forum should be, I will bow out gracefully.

[Surrealistic]

Well call me naive then...if one mod will just admit that this forum is just a thin farce, a fake veneer of what a forum should be, I will bow out gracefully.

Y'know, I'm sure if we took a vote on whether people here thought "that this forum is just a thin farce" you'd be in a very small minority, perhaps even alone. I also suspect that in the very unlikely event that a moderator did as you asked (and why would they when it seems patently untrue to the rest of us?) there's no way you'd just "bow out gracefully".

[Anderton]

 

I'm trying to elevate this place a little

 

 

Well, you've failed. That's when reality hurts, doesn't it? You're not exactly raining logic on the forum. Let me refresh your memory of the self-righteous and uninformed verbiage you have chosen to elevate the level of discourse:

 

"your [sic] dealing with

 

A - Corporate interests that want to shut you down

B - Apathy to your cause, due to a lack of morality, ethics.

C - A forum that provides service to the public, but wants the control of being private.

D - Inconsistent values - Members slander each other, but can't rile [sic] against an advertiser.

E - About zero interest in finding the truth or evolving the industry.This is a social medium where mutual backslapping and group, herd, lemming mentality love is found at the expense of honestly [sic], transparency, and accountability.

 

"Finding truth on internet forums is a little bit like having a conversation with a guy that you just picked up, chasing hookers downtown. If you ask him why he's picking up hookers, cheating on his wife, screwing over his family, you will never get a good reason or rationale for it, because in the end, he's fundamentally wrong.

 

"Big props to 3gtrsftr for actually admitting this forum has sold out, try to appreciate his honestly [sic], and don't rail at a system that is broken, because the membership couldn't care less about searching for the truth or ideal.

 

"If you want to do something about it, do what I do, and expose the morons for who they are, but it doesn't do any good to drive yourself to drinking over this."

 

Right...call people morons, insult the members, and expose your total cluelessness about the legalities of running a forum. Great job of elevation. At least I did appreciate the way you gave a thoughtful response to my rather lengthy reply to your comments. Oh wait, you didn't respond. Never mind.

 

 

if one mod will just admit that this forum is just a thin farce, a fake veneer of what a forum should be, I will bow out gracefully.

 

 

Wow, you mean all I have to do is say something that I don't believe in at all, and you'll leave? Hmmm...the tradeoff might be worth it. Very tempting.

 

As we're all amoral cretins, you've certainly helped give a new dimension to hypocrisy by hanging out in a place for which you have contempt. Clearly, none of us are good enough for your elevated standards. We are all filled with shame at our inadequacies and humbled by your superior mode of thinking that is so far beyond us it bears no relationship to reality. So as you leave this forum to move on to greater things among your peers, we wish you safe journeys and hopefully, you'll forget the url for how to get back here.

 

Trust me, your life will be so much better without us. As ours will be without you.

[daddymack]

frankly, I'm done with this troll...kanetoad, if you have nothing to offer here of any constructive value, take your negativity and whining elsewhere. or...prepare your next alt...in fact, better you should do that, the ban hammer is heavy in my hand....

[daddymack]

 

Pat - 1 - Name one rule that I have broken.

 

well, that was probably the stupidest thing you said so far, so let's see...you used the real name of a forumite who goes by a pseudonym in a quote in your sig [since modified] and you have insulted several people here ... so guess what...upon review...hasta la vista, loser...

[Iamthesky]

The true wonder of the internet is that -- in these same forums -- can coexist both this thread and another with a balanced, polite, and productive discussion on religion.

 

I mean, that's like putting the Sex Pistols and Kenny G on the same bill, right?

 

(Although, that said... around 1981 I saw a solo hammer dulcimer player totally captivate a punk/alternative audience at the Music Machine in London and have them screaming for more when he stopped.)

[blueshoes22]

Thanks.

 

Check this out: http://thewombforums.com/showthread.php?t=18213

 

This is a forum I was canned from a week or so ago. I never even mentioned this companies name. Yet here is the forum owner "Mixerman" going on about how he's going to use his forum to help this guy get some results with customer service - read it.

 

Over there they even said, that the guy in question, is something of a problem, but he's not going to oust him based on my spurious evidence. Evidence I have now emailed him just to make sure he gets it.

 

I get all this trash talk from everyone about the forum's might get sued. Check that thread out - they're naming, and bashing.

 

I don't have just a customer service problem, this guy has actually STOLEN my money. Because I live overseas, I have no way right now to get it back. My point is, all this stuff about the poor forums being sued and not being able to let people talk about their experiences with gear manufacturers, is BULL{censored}. They can do it IF they want to. Why help that guy and not me? Guess I'm not a "made man". I mean if you call it a customer service problem that you paid on July 1st, and it's now basically December, and that's not theft by this stage? That this guy can't be named on a forum? That's {censored} is what it is.

 

I've even found threads going back years where people are complaining of many familiar things, and he's apologising about it in the thread trying to blame the customer (familiar!) but the guy just said no way it was his fault - about stuff not arriving for months, never arriving, orders never being filled, but in those cases, they were lucky enough to not have paid.

 

Someone said "next time use a credit card". Thanks, another genius.... I did! I used a credit card through PayPal. PayPal has a 45 day buyer protection limit. You sign up to their terms. Therefore if I go to the credit card company, it's between PayPal and the Bank. The bank asks to see the terms I AGREED to with PayPal when I signed up, guess what, they never broke the terms of service. But this guy seems to know that, - that part is my speculation - and deliberately drags out the order, promising to fill for week and months on end until you are past the 45 day limit and have no recourse. In my case, I think he realised I'm out of the USA, and figured given the amount in total, he could at least drag it out a long, long time, using me like a line of credit, pretending he was "all confused" about who I was and where I was from and where I wanted the refund to go (to the SAME PayPal account from where it came).

 

On top of all this: HE cancelled my order. (Thank god because I got some much better stuff anyway so that part was actually good in the long run).

 

Yes I have filed this with the police, Yes I have filed it with PayPal, Yes I have spoke to a lawyer: I don't want to throw more good money after bad paying for a lawyer. The thread that was over at thewomb forums was working just good - he gave me back $1000 because of the pressure of that thread: which proves he IS using me like a line of credit and clearly just threw what he had at it in the moment - and I could be helped to get the rest back but NO.

[Anderton]

Like I said, I work in the background. I emailed the guy (yes, I know what the company is) and am attempting to get a dialog going.

 

If he won't engage in a dialog, that tells me what I need to know.

 

No offense, but I won't take your word (or his) for what happened without independent research on my own. I don't do it in public, but I'll get an answer one way or the other.

 

You can initiate a lawsuit in small claims court for very little expense if you're interested.

[blueshoes22]

Anderton: that you work in the background - I missed that. That you are doing something to help me, - enormous gratitude. Thank you man. That you don't take my word without checking: wouldn't expect anything less, you don't know me after all.

 

Thank you for helping, I'll wait and see what the results are.

[Anderton]

 

My point is, all this stuff about the poor forums being sued and not being able to let people talk about their experiences with gear manufacturers, is BULL{censored}. They can do it IF they want to. Why help that guy and not me? Guess I'm not a "made man". I mean if you call it a customer service problem that you paid on July 1st, and it's now basically December, and that's not theft by this stage? That this guy can't be named on a forum? That's {censored} is what it is.

 

 

US telecommunications law is very specific about what does and does not fall under the domain of forums in terms of being a pure conduit of information vs. passing judgement on that information. Harmony Central has terms of use. What I am doing in checking out your story is not on behalf of Harmony Central, but on my own as an independent author and contractor.

[blueshoes22]

Ok understood. Just to be clear: I never asked this forum or any other forum to pass judgement, only for me to simply be able to air my opinion and share my experience based on fact (which I was and am happy to provide).

[blueshoes22]

Well, I haven't heard back anything over here, but meanwhile there is quite a lot happening over here:

 

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/moan-zone/673154-ripped-off-acoustic-treatment-co.html

 

If anyone wants to know who ripped me off and see just some of the damning evidence.

 

I'd be GLAD to name the company here, but just link through and you'll find out.

 

Hope HC doesn't mind me linking to another forum.

[Anderton]

First of all, no problem linking to another forum. We do that all the time around here, and they link to us.

 

Second, I've been pretty much offline for the last four days as my "workhorse" desktop computer stopped working. I was very surprised as it's a PC Audio Labs machine that has been pretty much flawless...long story short, turned out to be a graphics card I had installed earlier this year when a contract required doing a video in Aero. So, I've been preoccupied elsewhere and now I'm four days behind.

 

However, I have not heard back from the company yet. My rule is to give everyone the benefit of the doubt as so much of the time, the problem ends up being either a misunderstanding or incompetence, not any serious attempt at fraud. But when I don't get a reply, I start getting suspicious. I'm going to ping them once more.

[daddymack]

remind me to buy you your drink of preference at NAMM...

[blueshoes22]

Well everyone, I can happily report that this morning I have received the balance of the refund from this company (named on the linked thread at another forum). The rest of the story is there, but at the end of the day simply: he phoned up, apologised, gave me the money back. Thanks to everyone who showed concern, tried to do something, it's really great to see there are great people out there who do care, and do give a damn. Thanks especially to Anderton for your concern and active help in trying to get to the bottom of this. Very cool.