Advice for setting up a less-than-ideal room?

[rog951]

Okay guys, what would you do if you were me? I started out finishing my basement around what was going to be my new home studio. Unfortunately, during the process, certain other issues came into play...one of which is that we wanted to leave room for a billiard table in the room adjacent to my studio. The pool table area ended up taking a sizeable chunk out of the studio. Originally I'd planned a 15' x 24' room which would've been just about right for me. I've attached a pdf file of what I ended up with. One "large" section about 14'x11' with what I have started referring to "the tunnel" jutting out to one side at around 13'x6' or so. The big squares are actually doors; don't know why they didn't come out looking right. You can see where the pool table is going, on the other side of the 5' and 13' walls, and I'm sure you can envision what the room would've looked like before the pool table idea gained traction.

 

Anyway, where would you put the monitoring station if you were me? I'd originally planned on putting it at one of the narrow ends and monitoring long ways. Now I'm not sure how that'd work. I'm thinking about having the monitoring station placed on the 10' wall and possibly putting my drum kit back in the tunnel area. 6' is going to be really tight for the drums though. I can temporarily set the drums up in the pool room but I will eventually need to move them into the studio. Luckily, it may be years before I can afford that pool table!

 

I'd appreciate any advice!

[rog951]

While I appreciate the "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" mentality, y'all can give it to me straight. I can take it. Do I have a prayer of making decent recordings in this room?

[Flaat]

Feet Schmeet. I actually thought about answering to this yesterday, but my eyes were tired and I didn't manage to get through your text one more time before answering..

 

So, after firing up a feet-meter calculator, I would say that the "tunnel" should be great for drums. I would put it so that the drummer is facing the 13' wall, with his back against the 24' wall.

 

Then I would build some walls and make a control room in the downmost part of the big cave, and reserve the other part of that cave for instruments.

 

Communication with drummer would not be so good, but drum sounds can be cool in such small locations.

 

I'm no pro on this however, so check with someone else before listening to me..

[rog951]

Thanks Explorer! And sorry about the feet!!!

 

That's a great idea, actually, and that shows the value of posting this stuff here. My brain was completely wrapped around putting the drums in the tunnel area and having the drummer's back against the 6' wall. Your setup is much better because, even though I don't have a big kit, 6' works a lot better front-to-back than side-to-side. The only possible issue I can see is that the bass drum head won't have much space in front of it before the wave hits the wall. But, I'm generally going to be close-micing the kick anyway...

 

I expect I'll need to deaden that part of the room a lot but that shouldn't be a problem. As far as building a permanent wall, I think that is out due to the wife factor. I could, however, put up a substantial acoustically treated room divider there. Actually, it might even be nice to be able to move it around to change up the acoustic space a bit. Cool, instead of "the tunnel" it'll be called "the booth."

[Flaat]

Originally posted by rog951 Cool, instead of "the tunnel" it'll be called "the booth."

 

Has a better "ring" to it, no?

 

Feet was no problem. (Just a Google-click away. )

 

I guess a room-divider would be more reasonable, as long as it doesn't make any noise. I guess a room-divider would be more free-floating than a normal wall, reflecting less frequencies?

 

Btw. in the bottom on of the drawing, there are two unequal corners.. I would think about building something so both sides would have the same proportions. I might be wrong in thinking this.

[tubes4tone]

I don't know how big your mix position is (desk, monitor setup), but you could move it to the 9 foot wall on the "south", although you'd have to be cautious of how the door opens. Does it open into the room our out of the room? Also, which door is the main entryway that will receive the most use.

 

If you can move your mix position, then you could try putting your drums roughly in the corner of the 10 foot and 5 foot walls. I wouldn't set them up with the drummer's back exactly in the corner, but more towards the 10 foot wall. That will give you a good amount of room to set up your close mics and mic stands, as well as some distant mics to get some room sound.

 

I would use the 6'x13' "tunnel" for micing guitar amps, placing them down on the 6' wall and shooting in. Again, this will give you room for your close mics as well as some good space for distant mics to get a room sound (if needed). If you have extra amps, they could stack towards the 6' end of the tunnel on the 24' wall and move them into position as necessary. Also, it would be cool to setup multiple amps at the end, run them simultaneously, and capture the combined sound with a distant mic. Hmmm, possibilities.

 

Just some thoughts off the top of my head. Have fun experimenting with the new space!

[rog951]

Originally posted by Flaat

 

Yeah, that's another unfortunate consequence of changing the room design half way through. I'd originally planned on mixing at the other end of the room (top of the picture) so the two unequal corners wouldn't have really come into play much. Of course, when the decision was made to take the 13x5 chunk out of the room, I didn't think it out far enough to symmetricize those two corners.

 

The smaller bump-out is where the electrical breaker box is located. I'm planning a built-in cabinet underneath to store all my pedals so at least the space will be utilized.

 

The bigger bump-out is where the main entry door is. We did it to create a little vestibule at the base of the basement stairs, so you don't have a door in plain view as you walk down the stairs. I don't know if it was worth it or not but it's done now and not likely to get changed. My wife is extremely tired of drywall dust and I don't want to make any more!!!

[rog951]

 

Originally posted by tubes4tone I don't know how big your mix position is (desk, monitor setup), but you could move it to the 9 foot wall on the "south", although you'd have to be cautious of how the door opens. Does it open into the room our out of the room? Also, which door is the main entryway that will receive the most use.

 

 

I actually haven't bought a new workstation/desk yet so I'm not 100% sure about the size either. I sold my old setup when I moved into this place. At least I won't have a big mixer cuz I'll be doing the mixing "in the box", but I will have a control surface of some sort. Also I'll have dual 17" video monitors and a pair of Mackie 824s. One rack of mic pres, comps and eq and a second rack of miscellaneous processors. I think that's about all I'll need at the mix position. I've got a keyboard stand and a small rack of MIDI modules but that stuff can go pretty much anywhere. I have tons of guitars and amps (too many) and those will probably clutter the walls of the entire room. It's gonna be tight in there, which sucks cuz I HATE working in a close environment like that...

 

Oh, BTW, I expect the door at the bottom of the page to be the main entry and, of course, it opens inward and swings toward the 9' wall. I may be able to change this but I'm not sure. If not, I guess I'm kinda doomed for using this as my mix position.

 

 

I would use the 6'x13' "tunnel" for micing guitar amps, placing them down on the 6' wall and shooting in. Again, this will give you room for your close mics as well as some good space for distant mics to get a room sound (if needed). If you have extra amps, they could stack towards the 6' end of the tunnel on the 24' wall and move them into position as necessary. Also, it would be cool to setup multiple amps at the end, run them simultaneously, and capture the combined sound with a distant mic. Hmmm, possibilities.

 

 

Yeah, that sounds very cool. I'm really psyched about recording guitars down there. What else is neat is that I have several other rooms in the basement where I can set up to record guitars. There's a faily large and lively room where the pool table will be; there's a home theater room which is good-sized and fairly dead acoustically; there's a small-ish exercise room; there's a small hallway and stairwell; there's a bathroom with fake marble tiled floors. I figure SOMETHING has to sound good down there!

 

Beyond the mixing position, I'm really most concerned about the drum position. I expect I'll keep them fairly stationary once I find a decent location for them. I expect I'll try the drums out both ways suggested and see what works best for sound and for convenience. By now I've learned that it's highly doubtful I'll get both...

 

Thanks for your insights and ideas!

[Phil O'Keefe]

I dunno Rog, that's a pretty wacky room geometry you've got going on there. If you set up your mix position along / facing that 9' wall, you're going to get some weird reflections from the "back" wall - where the one side is much closer and the other side has the "tunnel"... unless you plan on closing off the open end of the tunnel with a door or something...which might not be a bad idea.

 

Also, the door that leads into the room (at the bottom of your image) could seriously cut down your available space if it opens "into" the room. If it does, can you "flip" it so that it opens outwards?

 

The 10' wall is probably a bit better for you to face with your mix position, but it lacks the depth behind you that the other layout has. But I'd probably opt for that and just make the back wall really dead. 4" of fabric covered, semi-rigid, compressed fiberglass (or mineral wool), spaced 2-4" out from the wall should do it. I'd also put some corner traps, made out of the same materials (see Ethan Winer's acoustic site over on www.musicplayer.com for details) into the rear corners as well as the front corners for extra bass trapping. I'd also put diagonal bass traps into as many wall / ceiling junctures as I could... bass is going to really be an issue in a small space like that.

 

I'd also personally consider extending a partial wall at the 4' / 1' corner out another 4', so that your "side walls" (relative to the mix position, which would be facing the 10' wall on the left side of your diagram) extended 5' on each side of you. I'd treat both of those 5' walls to deal with early reflections from your "sides".

 

Again, I'd probably want to close off the opening to the 6' wide "tunnel", and put a door / window into that... with the window right up at the edge of the 5' wall, and the door right next to that, and a bit of space between the door and the 24' wall... that would allow for reasonably good lines of sight from the mix position into the "booth", a door next to the window AND a bit of space at the back (along the 24' wall) for a diagonal corner bass trap.

 

I'd stick the drums into the booth / tunnel, with the drummer's back aganst the 24' wall. When I was helping Mike Cosgrove from AAF with some suggestions for his basement studio layout, he was dealing with a room somewhat similar to yours, although considerably larger in the "center area"... but he ended up putting HIS drums into a small booth (about as wide as yours, but not as long) and has been pretty happy with it. I'd personally want a larger space, but you can get decent sounds out of small areas if you're good with the acoustic treatment, use close mic techniques and don't mind being a bit cramped.

 

Oh, one more thing - I'd also put in another partial extension wall along that 1' / 3' (lower right side of your diagram) corner that jutted out towards the door (lower left side of the diagram) by about 2' or so. with those two partial walls, you'd have about a 3' opening leading into the "control room", and essentially two booth areas. You could set a guitar amp up along the 3' wall (lower right corner of the diagram) and facing out towards the door on the lower right side of your diagram. That would give you a bit of a "gobo" between the amp and the control room, and a bit of distance in front of the amp so you can use close AND distant mic techniques on it... while still allowing a reasonable amount of space to carry in gear (drums etc) to the other "rooms".

 

It's not an ideal space, but if that's what you have to work with (personally, I'd ditch the pool table idea, but I also understand the "wife aspect" ), then that's the direction I would probably go. Just make sure you use a LOT of bass trapping and that you go more "dead" than live with the room acoustics - in general, the smaller the space, the deader it should be IMO.

[rog951]

Phil, thanks for the in-depth analysis. While not the most encouraging prognosis, there is some hope buried in there for the optimist to find (personally, I'm not close to being an optimist but I can try).

 

The walls are already up so the likelihood of them getting changed anytime soon are pretty low. Still, your bit about the AAF guy reminded me of how great-sounding some drum recordings I've heard out of tiny (and extremely dead) spaces have been. I now feel less constrained by putting the drums back in the tunnel area and just treating the crap out of the walls back there.

 

The mix position is going to be tough though. I'm tending to agree with you now that the 10' wall is the mix position wall. Still not ideal but, if you look at my original post, you're pretty much validating my own conclusion. I wonder though if the back wall should get diffusion or absorption. Seems like I'll be sitting with my back about 5-6' away from that back wall. You think just making it deader than a doornail is the way to go?

 

As far as bass trapping goes, unfortunately my budget is going to dictate that I treat for specific problems at first. No way I'll be able to afford to buy all the bass traps you're suggesting up front. Hopefully, I can set up and get some sound happening, take some measurements and throw up a coupla traps to squelch the biggest problems. Maybe I can DIY some traps to make up the difference...

 

Your idea about adding the two walls at the room entrance is intriguing. I like it a lot, except that it'll make my monitoring room even smaller. Once the room is up and functioning, I'll be able to better determine if I'd miss the area or not. If not, I just might do it.

 

Building that booth wall is also an intereseting concept but, for now at least, I'll have to settle for a gobo-type structure there. I do have a left-over pre-hung door sitting out in my garage that I could use for this purpose a little later.

 

Thanks again for your input. At least I'm not COMPLETELY discouraged!

[Phil O'Keefe]

Rog, for me, the priority would be to extend that "side" wall on your left side (as you face the 10' wall) - if you don't, you're going to have an asymetrical room - the left side will be further away from you than the right side, and that can play havoc with your stereo soundfield.

 

As far as the back of the room, due to something called the Haas Effect (also known as the precedence effect) and the limited distance you have "behind" you, I would recommend you make it as dead as possible... 2" of semi-compressed fiberglass spaced 2" off that back wall will greatly help, and 4" of material, spaced out 4" would be better yet - not only will it absorb more, but it will absorb "lower". That will give you a effective broadband absorber at the back of the room. Diffusion shouldn't be used at the back of the room IMO unless you have a MINIMUM of 10' behind you. Less than that, and the reflections will mostly fall within the Haas window (first 20ms or so) and your ear pretty much will discard the information / consider it part of the original source sound and not as a "reflection". That can mess with the sonics too. In a small, less than ideally shaped room with less than ideal room dimensions (from a modal standpoint), I recommend going "deader".

 

As far as acoustic treatment, it's one of those non-sexy things that many people have a hard time justifying the cost of. Please don't make that mistake. The room you listen in can and does have a CRITICAL effect on everything you do in the room, and if it's not well designed / treated, you'll have mucho problems getting things to "translate" well. You'll spend way too much time second guessing everything you do and trying to figure out what it's "really going to sound like" when you play it back out in the "real world".

 

Not to take anything away from Ethan's "Real Traps" and other worthwhile commercial acoustic treatment products, but you DO have a lower cost option available that can save you considerable money. As I mentioned, compressed, semi-rigid fiberglass and mineral wool are commonly used acoustic treatment tools that are even used for "big boy rooms" designed by megabuck acoustical consultants. The common size is a 2' X 4' sheet. Prices are usually in the .60 - .80 cents per square foot range. Here's one source for Owens-Corning type 703 compressed fiberglass. IOW, you can usually get twelve 2X4' sheets for well under $100. Mineral wool tends to be a tad less expensive.

 

Cover some of those fiberglass or mineral wool sheets with some porous fabric (colored burlap is commonly used - available at most local fabric stores - ask your wife ) and angle them 45 degrees across room corners and the wall / ceiling junctures and you create effective bass traps. Space them 2 - 4" out from that back wall and you have a great broadband absorber. Stick them directly on those "side walls" (or space them out 2" - IMO, an even better option in your small space) and you can treat the early reflection points with them. You can use standard 2X2" or 2X4" lumber to space things out. And the good news is that they're relatively inexpensive. Even $300 - $400 worth of materials (and a little elbow grease building them yourself) will make a BIG improvement in the sound of your room, and IMO, that can be a much better investment than a new mic or processor.

 

You can get some plans for self built panels and traps over on Ethan's fourm over on Musicplayer.

[rog951]

Thanks again, Phil! I'll definitely be making my own absorption panels. Looks like I can really stretch my bucks by going the DIY route. One question though: are you building wooden frames to drop these fiberglass panels into? Seems like the rigid glass would be very fragile just being covered with cloth and hung on the wall. I'd think the edges could get bunged up pretty easily. I understand using small pieces of lumber to space the panels out from the wall and that sounds quite easily accomplished...

 

One other scenario for you: if I do close off the tunnel area, how 'bout mixing facing this newly-created 11' wall? Since there'd be a window pane and a door on that wall, I realize that the area behind the speakers wouldn't exactly be "acoustically symmetrical" but I'm not sure how much that'd effect monitoring in the real world. Seems like the front wall might not be as important as having that extra 3' or so I'd be buying behind me. Any thoughts?