Can you be HUGELY successful and NOT a wh0r3?

[wwwjd]

Serious discussion please.

 

I do understand the primal link tween music and sex. I do. But for the last decade marketing has reached increasingly lower to exploite hot sexy girls to make them pop stars. What about them makes them stars other than taking more clothes off? Is that the only difference: a great singer VS a great singer that will get close to naked?

 

Will POP STARS next big evolution just become PORN STARS?

 

Just off the top of my head we had {censored} CAT DOLLS, BRITNEY SPEARS, LADY GAGA, KATY PERRY, RIHANNA, KESHA, Nikki Minaj (Minaj? REALLY?) all playing the Happy Hooker card as image and videos, willing to take most of it off, and sing very directly about porno style action. At least Beyonce is keeping it halfway classy.

 

Now, I'm not a prude, nor against sex on any level, but my question remains, do you HAVE TO BE A WH0RE to succeed in music now?

 

Also in the last year 3 songs were charting, or rather, competing to push the envelope of "look at my lack of talent, I can cover that with the shocking F word"

F**kin' Perfect - Pink

F**k You - Cee Lo Green

Tonight I'm F**king you - Eglesias guy

 

Really? Music can't do any better than ho's and swearing?

(I know there is a ton of other music charting, but for discussion....)

 

I didn't get into music to do porno. I'll do PORNO if I want porno.

[3shiftgtr]

 

Will POP STARS next big evolution just become PORN STARS? I didn't get into music to do porno. I'll do PORNO if I want porno.

 

 

Seriously, it is all about sales. If porn was accepted as legitimate, then they would. The label will hold it over them: "How can we promote you if you don't play the game?" This is the only "music biz" song that has ever rung true to me.

 

[video=youtube;aqm7wl4wmJE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqm7wl4wmJE

 

"Get me some angel whore that can learn a guitar lick."

 

Getting on the soapbox for a sec :soapbox:

 

...I feel that is has to do with American culture. It not only has to do with the acceptance of the lowest common denominator as the norm, but now there is DERISION to anything but. Take HC for example....there is post after post around all of these forums ripping things with depth as being bad on principle. And the reason is that SALES is the harbinger for quality....it is the only measuring stick in which to argue a point. Too much art in your music? Stay in the basement. Sell out or go home.

 

Bob: "Eff a buncha Shakespeare!"

Tom: "I dunno, when you look into it, Shakespeare had some cool things to say."

Bob: "Maaaaaan, eff a buncha thee's and thou's and that stupid crap. I don't care."

Tom: "Well, there's a lot of cool stuff in there if you look, but you have to look and be open to it."

Bob: "Whatever. When I get bored with this video game, Let's go to McDonalds?"

 

The majority of people IN THE ARTS agree with Bob, and the arbiters of taste will also tell you that you are being a snob and that Talledega Nights is more important art than Citizen Kane cuz it is more popular.

 

I don't have a problem with any commercial art. It all serves a purpose, but one is not more valid and important than the other. But those in the business disagree.

 

And therefore we see a 16 year old half nekkid girl singing "hit me baby one more time", and we as a culture accept it. Happy Meals are more artistically valid than 7 course cuisine cooked by a master chef of 35 years cuz, "...you know, whatever, more people like em and stuff...."

 

....stepping down now.

[Dancebass]

Sure, all you have to do is find a way to be LOWER than a whor3. Child Molester would work. That's already "hinted" at with much praise among some of the newer hipster PITCHFORK promoted bands.

[wwwjd]

true dat. it is always about money bottom line. and they have tapped into what sells the best... from what I think I have read and understand, porn is a billion dollar industry, so I can see things merging there in the near future. the desensitization has begun.

 

I'm unfamiliar with the pitchfork stuff, but why not? I mean if it sells, lets market my grandmas stinky underpants too. Some moron will buy into it.

 

There are a number of clothed, talented people on the charts too. But I think to maintain and keep selling, you gotta start stripping.

 

THANK GOD the male artists haven't stooped to stripping yet!!! Most haven't anyway.

But I am sure that is coming, since I just thought of it.

[3shiftgtr]

 

Sure, all you have to do is find a way to be LOWER than a whor3. Child Molester would work. That's already "hinted" at with much praise among some of the newer hipster PITCHFORK promoted bands.

 

 

My new band "The Lords of NAMBLA"

 

Our first single "Death Penis"

 

...we're gonna be huge!

[Dessalines]

 

"Get me some angel whore that can learn a guitar lick." Getting on the soapbox for a sec :soapbox: ...I feel that is has to do with American culture. It not only has to do with the acceptance of the lowest common denominator as the norm, but now there is DERISION to anything but. Take HC for example....there is post after post around all of these forums ripping things with depth as being bad on principle. And the reason is that SALES is the harbinger for quality....it is the only measuring stick in which to argue a point. Too much art in your music? Stay in the basement. Sell out or go home. Bob: "Eff a buncha Shakespeare!" Tom: "I dunno, when you look into it, Shakespeare had some cool things to say." Bob: "Maaaaaan, eff a buncha thee's and thou's and that stupid crap. I don't care." Tom: "Well, there's a lot of cool stuff in there if you look, but you have to look and be open to it." Bob: "Whatever. When I get bored with this video game, Let's go to McDonalds?" The majority of people IN THE ARTS agree with Bob, and the arbiters of taste will also tell you that you are being a snob and that Talledega Nights is more important art than Citizen Kane cuz it is more popular. I don't have a problem with any commercial art. It all serves a purpose, but one is not more valid and important than the other. But those in the business disagree. And therefore we see a 16 year old half nekkid girl singing "hit me baby one more time", and we as a culture accept it. Happy Meals are more artistically valid than 7 course cuisine cooked by a master chef of 35 years cuz, "...you know, whatever, more people like em and stuff...." ....stepping down now.

 

 

 

Ayuh!!!! You will get no argument form me, I'm in agreement. However, so it goes.

[daddymack]

in my industry, we have a saying: "sex sells"...and, frankly, it is true of any product to which you can remotely attach a sexual context...music, art, theatre, film...as much as the protests go on and on about blatant sexuality in media, there it is, more blatant, more over the top every day. We in the modern world have all become enslaved by the cache of the $...it is the 'be all and end all' determinant of all things good and bad, regardless of any perceptual bias: if it sells, it MUST be good. Since all advertising mavens know that they will not go broke using sexuality as their keystone, it has become a point of competitiveness to see how far the envelope can be pushed...sadly, no one, and I mean no one, can alter this course. The 'religious right'? Not a chance; if anything, they are as much to blame for its success as anyone....'offending the prudes' has become a stamp of accomplishment. So if they are pandering overt sex to tweens via pop music (how long ago was the term 'pop tart' coined?), is anyone really shocked anymore?

 

next....

[richardmac]

You know, I remember having a conversation with a buddy when Madonna first hit. I said "In ten years, we will have a female pop music star who is also a porn star." It didn't happen, but I think you bring up a great point. daddymack is right, sex sells. But no, you don't have to be a whore. Adelle has sold 5 million copies of her latest album and she's not a whore. I'm not a fan of her music but I respect her and what she does musically.

 

John Mayer is successful, and he's not a whore. Wait... yes, yes he is.

[flatfinger]

That's why we have so many pop star guitarist ;

 

They all have nice racks !!!

 

 

 

jay Leno said that many actresses now even have to have butt double if the don't have a good can !! ( KimK. has to have a butt triple however !!)

[daddymack]

A lot has to do with how the marketeers plan to position an artist...but, let's face it, even Celine Dion posed for some 'sexy' pics a while back ...

and, good point, Richard, IIRC, Adele is a tad, um, big-boned for them to push the 'sexy' thing successfully...amazingly enough, she may make it on her talent...

But pop music has always rested on image, be it the wholesome girl next door thing with Annette Funicello or Shelley Fabares in the 50s/60s, to the too hot to handle Madonna image of the 80s, Deborah Harry's Marilyn Monroe wannabe image, J-Lo's derriere, to the 'pop tarts' like Spears and Aguilera, etc...

[Vito Corleone]

 

You know, I remember having a conversation with a buddy when Madonna first hit. I said "In ten years, we will have a female pop music star who is also a porn star." It didn't happen, but I think you bring up a great point.

I was working record-retail (Tower) in the late 80s/early 90s and there was a porn star (Heather Hunter was her name, IIRC) who was trying to go from being a porn star to having a legitimate music career. I remember her label being very unsure about how to market her---do we play UP the porn star past or play it DOWN? They tried to kind of play it down the middle and she went nowhere. Didn't help that she wasn't very good, of course. If only Prince had discovered her first, perhaps...

 

 

John Mayer is successful, and he's not a whore. Wait... yes, yes he is.

 

 

Nah...he's just the doing the standard male rock star thing. Problem is, we haven't SEEN anybody do that in so long, we kinda forgot what it was all about.....

 

But WHY does John {censored} all those different starlets and then dump them?

 

...because he can....

[michael_B]

The next obvious step is to inbed a USB stick in a gummy fetus! Oh wait, somebody already did it.

 

http://www.pitchfork.com/news/43245-listen-three-new-flaming-lips-songs-from-usb-drives-embedded-inside-gummy-fetuses/

 

If you trade your time for money, your a whore...so we all are. Happy days.

[cherri]

A lot of that depends on your defninition of success. If success means getting gobs of media attention, cash, and controversy, then those who sell lots of that are successful. If success means being recognized for musicianship, talent, and appeal, those who earn that are successful, even if they don't achieve mass media popularity.

[kmart]

 

Serious discussion please. I do understand the primal link tween music and sex. I do. But for the last decade marketing has reached increasingly lower to exploite hot sexy girls to make them pop stars. What about them makes them stars other than taking more clothes off? Is that the only difference: a great singer VS a great singer that will get close to naked? Will POP STARS next big evolution just become PORN STARS? Just off the top of my head we had {censored} CAT DOLLS, BRITNEY SPEARS, LADY GAGA, KATY PERRY, RIHANNA, KESHA, Nikki Minaj (Minaj? REALLY?) all playing the Happy Hooker card as image and videos, willing to take most of it off, and sing very directly about porno style action. At least Beyonce is keeping it halfway classy. Now, I'm not a prude, nor against sex on any level, but my question remains, do you HAVE TO BE A WH0RE to succeed in music now? Also in the last year 3 songs were charting, or rather, competing to push the envelope of "look at my lack of talent, I can cover that with the shocking F word" F**kin' Perfect - Pink F**k You - Cee Lo Green Tonight I'm F**king you - Eglesias guy Really? Music can't do any better than ho's and swearing? (I know there is a ton of other music charting, but for discussion....) I didn't get into music to do porno. I'll do PORNO if I want porno.

 

 

 

"...Like the time I caught the ferry to Shelbyville. I needed a new heel for m'shoe. So I decided to go to Morganville, which is what they called Shelbyville in those days. So I tied an onion to my belt. Which was the style at the time. Now, to take the ferry cost a nickel, and in those days, nickels had pictures of bumblebees on 'em. Gimme five bees for a quarter, you'd say. Now where was I... oh yeah. The important thing was that I had an onion tied to my belt, which was the style at the time. You couldn't get white onions, because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones..."

 

Today's pop stars aren't doing ANYTHING different than the pop stars of 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago, etc. did.

They just happen to be playing on a field that has been continuously changing all that time.

 

Using your criteria, any actors portraying a married couple on TV are whores too, because they aren't shown sleeping in separate beds.

 

{censored} CAT DOLLS, BRITNEY SPEARS, LADY GAGA, KATY PERRY, RIHANNA, KESHA, Nikki Minaj aren't whores; they're successful BUSINESSES.

And I don't know what planet you're on, but Beyonce isn't any more chaste or whatever in her content or imagery than the above are.

[ermghoti II]

 

You know, I remember having a conversation with a buddy when Madonna first hit. I said "In ten years, we will have a female pop music star who is also a porn star." It didn't happen...

 

 

I disagree. The "leaked" sex tape is now a time-proven road to fame.

[3shiftgtr]

 

Today's pop stars aren't doing ANYTHING different than the pop stars of 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago, etc. did. They just happen to be playing on a field that has been continuously changing all that time. Using your criteria, any actors portraying a married couple on TV are whores too, because they aren't shown sleeping in separate beds. {censored} CAT DOLLS, BRITNEY SPEARS, LADY GAGA, KATY PERRY, RIHANNA, KESHA, Nikki Minaj aren't whores; they're successful BUSINESSES. And I don't know what planet you're on, but Beyonce isn't any more chaste or whatever in her content or imagery than the above are.

 

 

Logic fail.

 

Showing leg is different than sucking caulk. Always has been. Porn was around in the 20's. Yes the field has changed, but the game that is on it hasn't. Sex still sells and entertainment business is business. But the difference is WHAT has to be done. The shifting of norms and mores gives due diligence to what is accepted, but what is done is still what is done, it is not a matter of what is accepted. The act doesn't push the norms and mores around. The norms and mores supplicate society, not the other way around.

 

Does shooting a real live human baby while having sex with it during a show happen as art just cuz someone accepts it? IF one person accepts it, then the artist can be positioned as one who pushes the boundaries. When are the norms and mores shifted? Before, during or after the act?

 

The fact is that the act didn't shift anything. Separate beds on t.v. in the 50's has no bearing on Justin Beiber singing a song about busting a chicks cherry during a school dance, or Kardoucheian banging Ray J for all the world to see. The norms and mores are the same....dehumanization as a selling point doesn't change the perceived moral value (social mores). Until YOU want YOUR daughter getting laid at the 8th grade school dance in a mop closet to a guy who is using her as a sperm sponge, then distributes video of it to everyone, nothing has changed since the 20's. Since the time when married adults slept in separate beds on t.v.

 

The op is talking about the fact that PORN is accepted as a way to sell product, not to act or behave. You are all defensive cuz you think he's being a prude.

[Matximus]

 

Serious discussion please. I do understand the primal link tween music and sex. I do. But for the last decade marketing has reached increasingly lower to exploite hot sexy girls to make them pop stars. What about them makes them stars other than taking more clothes off? Is that the only difference: a great singer VS a great singer that will get close to naked? Will POP STARS next big evolution just become PORN STARS? Just off the top of my head we had {censored} CAT DOLLS, BRITNEY SPEARS, LADY GAGA, KATY PERRY, RIHANNA, KESHA, Nikki Minaj (Minaj? REALLY?) all playing the Happy Hooker card as image and videos, willing to take most of it off, and sing very directly about porno style action. At least Beyonce is keeping it halfway classy. Now, I'm not a prude, nor against sex on any level, but my question remains, do you HAVE TO BE A WH0RE to succeed in music now? Also in the last year 3 songs were charting, or rather, competing to push the envelope of "look at my lack of talent, I can cover that with the shocking F word" F**kin' Perfect - Pink F**k You - Cee Lo Green Tonight I'm F**king you - Eglesias guy Really? Music can't do any better than ho's and swearing? (I know there is a ton of other music charting, but for discussion....) I didn't get into music to do porno. I'll do PORNO if I want porno.

 

 

Are you a teenager? Do you want to make music for teenagers or young 20-somethings whose main interest is getting laid? If you answered no to both of those questions then your strange obsession with teenager music is either creepy or misguided.

 

That music isn't for you - it isn't made for you to like or appreciate and the fact that it resonates with you in such a strong, negative way, means that music is accomplishing exactly what it sets out to accomplish. You know what I call that? Effective art.

 

Also, that music is made for a very specific reason, and likening it to porn is actually not a bad thing at all. It is supposed to be porn soundtrack music, dude. When you judge music you have to think about what it is being made for.

 

That music is made to be played loudly in rooms where strangers looking to get laid dance and drink together. That means it should be simple, catchy, groovy and raunchy. The sentiment should also speak to young people - nobody in the club wants to risk rubbing up against a pale, jiggly 30 or 40-something. "I'm Effing You" says the same thing as "Go Away Creepy Old Guy" in young people language.

 

Why is this the music that dominates the charts? There is a very simple reason for this. Where is the one place where people of different stripes, colors & tastes can all bear to listen to the same type of music together? Well - there are two places. One is during the seventh inning stretch at baseball games. But Sweet Caroline has that one locked up. So forget about anything new on that front. The other is in clubs. Outside of that, everyone is siloed into their own little diverse iPod playlist universe - it's all been fragmented outside of that. You can't put ten people in a room together that will all agree that it's a good idea to play Nina Simone back to back with David Bowie, the Beastie Boys and the Mahna Mahna song from the Muppets. That kinda track list is individuals listen to music for enjoyment these days. But that kinda whacky diversity doesn't go over well with a crowd. But I'm gonna guess that more than half of that ten won't mind getting down and have some harmless fun boogying along to California Gurls after rocking out to Forget U or Jay-Z's New York or whatever.

 

And stupid music with curse words in it tends to go over well with people that are tipsy and turned on and getting down - you ever been in a bar or club till closing time?

[Poker99]

Bob: "Eff a buncha Shakespeare!" Tom: "I dunno, when you look into it, Shakespeare had some cool things to say." Bob: "Maaaaaan, eff a buncha thee's and thou's and that stupid crap. I don't care." Tom: "Well, there's a lot of cool stuff in there if you look, but you have to look and be open to it." Bob: "Whatever. When I get bored with this video game, Let's go to McDonalds?" The majority of people IN THE ARTS agree with Bob, and the arbiters of taste will also tell you that you are being a snob and that Talledega Nights is more important art than Citizen Kane cuz it is more popular.

 

You're an elitist

 

 

I agree with you man, but Maxitmus has good points too. I remember "Touch Me" by Samantha Fox and her ugly big tits. It wasn't for her musical talent she had a carreer...

[Matximus]

Ugly Big Tits. That's one of those for the "dream band name" file. And listen - I have no problem hating on music. But you gotta hate it on the right merits. And you have to be honest about what your reaction is really all about. I often hear a lot of "That Johnny FootBall Hero Banging the Prom Queen is Nothing But a Stupid Jock" in the tone of critics of popular music. It drives me nuts.

 

My take is: he probably is a stupid jock. I do think he is one too. Okay? But what's my beef with stupid jocks? And, you know, he's a lucky bastard too and he's clearly doing something right - maybe if I hit the gym a bit like he does and put some time in exploiting my modest gifts I could be the Johnny FootBall Hero of the Chess Club or whatever- catch the eye of that equally nerdy chick that heads up the year book. You can learn something from Johnny, even if you think he's a prick. It's all relative: It's not Johnny Football Hero Sucks compared to my Pal Craig The Comic Book Geek - its: Is Johnny Football Hero as big of an Asshole as Henry The Hockey Captain?

 

You gotta bash Lady Gaga in relation to Katy Perry and Madonna. By that Yardstick, I 100% think Lady Gaga is losing her cool {censored}. She's wearing out her welcome with some of her tired {censored}, in my opinion. I think Beyonce is boring as crap too with her latest offerings. She needs to forget about that ballady crap and stick with those ridiculous supersonic hits - they best fit her cool-as-ice and above-it-all persona. I just can't get down with heart-on-the-sleave Beyonce - I mean, she's too god damn perfect and composed.

 

Katy Perry is fantastic lately. Her songs are kicking and she's coming off as fresh and appealing and together in pretty much all of her endeavors - the magaizine interviews, her hits, her film & TV appearances. She makes Lady Gaga look like a Space Cadet more than some kinda edgy pop goddess. She's genius with that Girl Next Door thing - it's a huge trump card over what Lady Gaga has to offer. Gaga is gonna trend toward Michael Jackson-level creepiness the more of her realself that she tries to reveal. Katy Perry rocks.

 

Christina Aguilera is gonna keep being a bit of a sad sack in my mind until she figures out that she should just try and be a grown-up child star divorced mom with an amazing gift for singing popular songs. If she owns that and gets some early Whitney Houston-quality material she's gonna kill it again. That I'm trying to be Lady Gaga thing was pathetic on so many levels. Her style of melisma-heavy Big Voice singing isn't working well within that that Eurotrash, Summer Fun-dance trend on the U.S. charts. But there is a hunger for singers that can sing - look at those neo-soul artists out of the UK, Adele being top example. Christina can blow as good as her. Her comeback blueprint should be Tina Turner's Private Dancer - Tina hit the charts being Tina but being modern too. And it was all because of her singing and the quality of those songs. She was being a 45-year-old woman who has lived life hard. What Christina needs to do is straight up songs with good melodies and a moveable beat in a style of music that is modern but clearly rings true and close to her heart, be it informed by big band, jazz, whatever. She needs to sing the kind of songs she loved the most when she was 14 or 15 - people respond when people sing music they clearly love singing. Elvis went Gospel, right? That was just kinda weird at the time. But it was all good. He recorded Crying in the Chapel off the cuff. It sat in a vault for five years and became a Smash at the height of Beatlemania cause people heard a good song being sung true by a real artist. That's where it's at. Early Elvis's trump card was his instinct - his instinct was astonishingly on point and that's a lesson for a lotta folk. When Elvis was being Elvis without thinking too hard - that's when he walked the mountain top - from the famous sit-down, jamming part of the TV Special to his greatest Record, the Col. Parker-Get-The-Hell-Out-of-My-Way "From Elvis in Memphis," which he exercised singular artistic control over. Anyway, I am pulling for XTina cause she is a real talent and she's shown some teflon with all those big flops. My guess is a lot of people are. Funny thing is - I don't even really like her music that much.

 

Oh yeah: Samantha Fox was absolutely inferior to Paula Abdul on almost every level - the quality of her material, her presentation, Is-She-or-isn't-she-a-midget Paula's freaking awesome dance moves... Paula's Perky Small Tits trumped her Sam's ugly big ones....

[Kramerguy]

I remember a lot of people had the same reaction as the OP when Madonna's "like a virgin" video came out.

[Poker99]

 

Christina can blow as good as her.

 

 

This is what Christina needs to come back at the top! lol

[3shiftgtr]

You're an elitist I agree with you man, but Maxitmus has good points too. I remember "Touch Me" by Samantha Fox and her ugly big tits. It wasn't for her musical talent she had a carreer...

 

My bad Poker.... But just in case the sarcasm wasn't understood by all, the quote you picked was to show what PEOPLE IN THE BUSINESS thinks the audience is. Not me. Sam Fox doesn't get to show her tutties until they say she can. The guys that cut the check want BOB"S money....they think all of us are BOB.

 

And all of us from time to time hit the drive thru....nothing wrong with that, so no judgement from me.

 

But what the op is talking about isn't what is accepted and therefore relevant as a sales tool as Matx is saying. It's he idea is that there is a distance between what one does and what one sells. Again, the business uses things to sell product that isn't accepted....THAT's being a whore.

 

It's the used car salesman saying whatever lie it takes to get you to buy the car. Bottom line is that the things that are being used to sell these people aren't generally accepted in society......a nod's as good as a wink to a blind bat, eh?

 

[video=youtube;jT3_UCm1A5I]

[Poker99]

I'm not sure I know why but I feel I have to post this here.

 

[video=youtube;e5YPiBx9MJs]

[3shiftgtr]

 

 

 

Never saw that! Wow....poor kid. Wonder how long it took her to realize that daddy can't buy everything. I wonder if they ever made any money on her....they sure spent alot....and she's been VERY quiet lately......

[daddymack]

hmmmm...Monty Python and Ashlee Simpson on the same page...in MusBiz... what could possibly top that?