Members geek_usa Posted August 20, 2005 Members Share Posted August 20, 2005 Hey there guys, I got a question for those of you here. When you listen to albums or plan on mastering a project, where do you draw the line of "loudness"? Do you usually *peak* your master at 0dBFS? or do you leave a little room for it to breathe? After studying albums and their waveforms, I can definately tell you that by making a snow fort out of your wave forms, you're not doing anything to help it. I like Pearl Jam's "Vitalogy" for instance, and even considered mastering to that level, but there's a certain level of ear fatigue and now I know why. So, opinions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cakewalkr7 Posted August 20, 2005 Members Share Posted August 20, 2005 Check out bob katz' site at www.digido.com. It's got some very good articles on that topic. He even has a list of what he considers industry best mixes and their overall volume level... some of which are as low as -9 db. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MASSIVE Master Posted August 21, 2005 Members Share Posted August 21, 2005 I would say that at least over the past several years, most projects I work on *peak* near zero - I try to leave a whisker of space in there - Maybe a half dB or so. I rarely use digital limiting, so it tends to be where it tends to be - I'm not going to fight for a lousy few tenths of a dB... That's how this whole loudness crap started. As far as loudness is concerned, I shoot for putting the mix's volume where it wants to be. I'll force it beyond that at the client's pleasure, but you know how that goes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members geek_usa Posted August 21, 2005 Author Members Share Posted August 21, 2005 wow! katz certainly knows his stuff! I picked up a lot of good tips from it! Perhaps I won't try to squeeze that extra 2dB or whatever in there to make it peak at 0dB! perhaps where it's at is just fine. Much less fatiguing in the long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TonyCrazyMan Posted August 21, 2005 Members Share Posted August 21, 2005 That MS technique seems very useful! Thinking in M and S can really bring new qualities into the mastering phase! I love these kind of open minded professional knowledge based articles where you can actually get VERY good advices! I have to download every article now...! Thanks for the link!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members geek_usa Posted August 21, 2005 Author Members Share Posted August 21, 2005 Thanks for the replies guys. I noticed something however. Can loudness be used as a tool with certain songs? On the Foo Fighter's "Monkey Wrench", the wave looks absolutely horrendous (almost a wall) although for the song, the loudness factor seems to fit perfectly. If it had not been mastered as loud, would it have less impact? Please take a listen to "Monkey Wrench" from the Foo Fighters and tell me what you think. I'll provide a link to a high quality mp3 since everybody here doesn't typically listen to the Foo Fighters and might not know what i'm talking about. http://s19.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0ESF3J5VMOJQN39TTF0B8UB7O2 My friend Charlayna just bought this album yesterday and says it sounds very good; and this is what I thought as well - but I also noticed it fatigued my ears something terrible after 20 minutes of listening or so. They were tired like they had just went through a heavy work out. Depending on the music of course, would you guys say that the album should be mastered loud, as some people (only casual music listeners) only listen to a few songs anyhow, or should it be mastered as a whole, good sounding album that only a few people will take the time to enjoy thoroughly but be respected greatly? thanks again guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Chinese Posted August 21, 2005 Members Share Posted August 21, 2005 If it's too Loud, Yer too Old.... He he he he heh e. j/k -t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members geek_usa Posted August 21, 2005 Author Members Share Posted August 21, 2005 Originally posted by The Chinese If it's too Loud, Yer too Old.... He he he he heh e. j/k -t I'm 18, jackass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Chinese Posted August 21, 2005 Members Share Posted August 21, 2005 Originally posted by geek_usa I'm 18, jackass. So? You might be an Old Spirit!!!!! -T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dave Martin Posted August 21, 2005 Members Share Posted August 21, 2005 Besides the fatigue factor that 'too loud' music causes, there's also the fact that when you get into extremes (Californication is an excellent example), the limiting can actually reverse the apparent dynamics of a song. Listen to that record; there are places where the sparse verse sections are maxes, and when the chorus hits and it's supposed to be big, it sounds quieter and thinner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MASSIVE Master Posted August 22, 2005 Members Share Posted August 22, 2005 I certainly can't speak for the Foo Fighters, but I DO think that a certain amount of "loudness" and compression can be a wonderful thing with some tunes. The punch and impact - It's a good thing. But SO few people stop there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted August 22, 2005 Share Posted August 22, 2005 Originally posted by MASSIVE Master I certainly can't speak for the Foo Fighters, but I DO think that a certain amount of "loudness" and compression can be a wonderful thing with some tunes. The punch and impact - It's a good thing. But SO few people stop there... Okay, let's assume that's true for a moment... but then what do you do with the rest of the record? Do you squash everything by that same amount and bring it all up into say, the -10 dB RMS range and take the oversquashing sonic "hit" on the majority of the rest of the songs, or do you give up on that idea for heavy comp on the one song because you don't want that song 6 dB hotter than everything else on the record? Think about it and let me know what you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members geek_usa Posted August 22, 2005 Author Members Share Posted August 22, 2005 Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe Okay, let's assume that's true for a moment... but then what do you do with the rest of the record? Do you squash everything by that same amount and bring it all up into say, the -10 dB RMS range and take the oversquashing sonic "hit" on the majority of the rest of the songs, or do you give up on that idea for heavy comp on the one song because you don't want that song 6 dB hotter than everything else on the record? Think about it and let me know what you think. While I'm not John Scrip, I will say that it probably depends on the type of music and the target audience. If it was a concept Pink Floyd album, then that would definately be a bad idea. If it were the new 50 cent album, I think we could get by, since most people don't give a fly anyways, since their "favorite" song is the one that is played on the radio (and coincidentally, would be the one going over the top in this situation). People don't give respect to full-length albums anymore. When you release a record, it should be a listening experience, not targeted as a money maker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Will Chen Posted August 22, 2005 Members Share Posted August 22, 2005 Great articles. I downloaded a couple for lunch. Just a thought, maybe there is no such thing as too loud. I love listening to a really dynamic album, however hear me out. It might be possible that many (you could argue due to radio/MTV's super compressed signals) actually prefer the sound of clipped peaks (that is clipped in a somwhat analog way without the pop associated with digital distortion). Maybe, the dynamically interesting mix is "outdated"? Think about it in terms of video/film. Prior to the 60's, longer shots were prefered because quick cuts were considered bad practice due to the assumed confusion of the viewer. Additionally, sound mixing was minimal as directors of the time felt sound effects would distract from the story line. My how times have changed with even the most artisticly acclaimed drama containing a fair amount of quick cutting and foley/sound mixing. I wonder if in a listening test between 2 mixes adjusted so the overall levels were close but one was highly compressed which the average Joe would prefer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MASSIVE Master Posted August 22, 2005 Members Share Posted August 22, 2005 I seriously *try* to subscribe to the album as a whole concept - I actually had someone write me just days ago saying that he checked a mix on a wave editor and found areas one ONE mix had some headroom left. Not that it would matter if this was the loudest mix on the project already... Sidenote: I desperately try to avoid digital limiting wherever possible, so MOST of my finished mixes appear to have headroom even if they're squashed to death. Anyway - It's part of the job to make everything "gel" nicely - If a track needs a whisker less compression - or simply a lower volume - that's where it goes. I'm NOT all over making every track as loud as possible and just throwing them together. I get projects in frequently that request that, but it's never my first thought. That being said - I don't want anyone to have to reach for the volume control while listening to the album. Every track certainly doesn't need to be the same volume, but one shouldn't be considerably quieter or louder than the others unless that's part of the feel. An acoustic piece before a death-metal piece for example - The acoustic piece probably has WAY more "volume potential" than the death-metal piece. But it's not against the law to bring the file's volume down to make it fit with the rest of the project... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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