When you feel like giving up...

[geek_usa]

I finally got my masters back from my engineer. They sound like dog {censored} to say the least. This isn't a spot on him by any means, it was just the medium of what I recorded with and my skills.

 

I tried my hand at mastering. It sounded better, but not professional. But most important it sounded better.

 

But every new mix/master i tend to spit out, and I try it on different car players and cd players... there's always something missing. I always have to go in and tweak. By the end of the ride, I'm never smiling.

 

 

Sometimes things get so hard. Some days I feel I just can't do it any more. My skills are below average at best.

 

Any of you feel the same way? Like nothing you do matters, and people automatically put an "expectation" label on you for what they expect to hear, and are always disappointed because it does not sound like "so and so"?

 

To top it off i'm depressed with other issues, so that doesn't help matters any. Closest I've come to crying in two weeks.

[Kiwiburger]

Yeah - life sucks. It's hard trying to make music that is constantly going to be compared with the very best product from the best studios.

 

Have a break from it all - do something else that's more fun, and then come back to it and you'll feel a lot better.

 

There are some hard ball pro's here who have their own agenda, and their views can be depressing, but they aren't necessarily right. A lot of them are jaded old farts who diss everything because they can't remember what it was like to be young.

 

Music doesn't have to be perfect. Mastering doesn't have to be a black art performed by those in the know.

 

Have a look at www.har-bal.com. The 'pro's' will dismiss this as piece of junk. I think it is very useful when you are struggling to learn about mastering and how to make mixes that sound good on many different systems.

 

I use it as a second-opinion. The demo alone is probably adequate for that. Then, if you see a problem grapically, instead of using the Har-bal eq, go back to you mix and fix it there.

 

For example - you may have created a mix that - unknown to you - has too much energy below 30Hz and a bit of a hole at 80Hz. That will have big problems on many systems. Har-bal can show you this, so you can go back to your mix and correct it. Rather than eq'ing the whole mix - find out the problem track and fix that.

 

I expect smart asses like where02190 will tell you that i'm full of crap and don't know what i'm talking about. Fair enough - it's because of people like that I won't be posting here anymore.

 

Life's too short to do stuff you don't enjoy.

[kylen]

Originally posted by Kiwiburger I expect smart asses like where02190 will tell you that i'm full of crap and don't know what i'm talking about. Fair enough - it's because of people like that I won't be posting here anymore.

I've picked up a couple of tips from where02190 but regardless I know what you mean - I went thru the same thing on another forum trying to offer some alternatives to the outboard analog oldtimers that are available for us DAW folk. Like get with the future - you just gotta roll with it I don't mind gettin chewed on. It's not personal - at least I don't take it that way ...

 

It wasn't about HarBal but using the spectrums in SPAN, GlissEQ and Soniformer to augment my ears and monitoring - no matter how many times I told those guys I was listening and watching a spectrum they just didn't get it...it was like "we can't figure out how you can balance something without listening" - doh! God I've paid my dues today!

 

We'll get them folks up to speed soon enough I recon!

[Kiwiburger]

Sorry - shouldn't have dragged where02190 into my blue funk. I'm having a bit of a tough time like geek too. Nothing too serious - more sleep would be good.

 

Musicians are creative types, and creative types tend to be manic/depressive.

 

There is always people with more gear, more experience, more gold records on the wall. Sometimes those people are helpful, sometimes they are just tools.

 

It's hard trying to produce music to the same level as chart-topping hits. Most of these finished works are the result of a collaboration between dozens of highly talented and skilled people with lots of expensive gear (even if it was only rented).

 

It's freakin hard on your own, on a limited budget. But rock'n'roll is about stickin' to the man. The Man might think he owns rock'n'roll - even more reason to stick to him.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Folks, let's just take a breath here for a moment...

 

First of all, I don't expect everyone on this forum to always agree with everyone else's opinions. That is unrealistic and would be boring. HOWEVER, what I do expect, and frankly, insist on, is that when you do disagree with someone, you do so without resorting to personal attacks or name calling. Calling someone an ass or anything like that is unacceptable on this forum - period. I don't care if it's a "old timer engineer" or a "young newbie"... EVERYONE is entitled to respect here. If someone is crossing the line, then send me a PM or use the "report this post" button - that's what it's there for, and dealing with those situations is my responsibility. I don't like having to be an Internet babysitter (I'd rather spend my time discussing audio and music:) ), so please conduct yourselves in a civil and responsible manner.

 

My forum, my rules: No ad hominem attacks. That means "don't call each other names and make personal attacks". Those who are willing to accept that, and honor that most basic rule are welcome to participate here - young or old, experienced or beginner. Those who are not will be dealt with. Regardless of age, experience or any other irrelevant details.

 

Thank you.

[fuzzball]

This may help:

 

Why sound like everyone else, be proud of your mixes. I don't think we are ever satisfied with what we acomplish (which is good). This will give us the drive to become better.

 

I have recorded over 60 songs that I have written and some of them more than once, I am never satisfied, but I am proud of my accomplishments. Look at each project as a steping stone for the next. By the way I would like to hear your CD.

 

Good luck and don't give up.

[kylen]

I'm hip - I'm a Garage guy by birth, training, and aspiration - it doesn't mean I don't like to have a good balanced sound - it just means I don't necessarily care about getting a commercial sound or getting into that rat race (haha - sorry rats already in the audio race - I'm in another rat race so it all goes around I guess!).

 

Besides all that I'm just a guitar player who got a little too curious about recording/mixing/balancing...

[Kiwiburger]

Just ban me Phil and end this nonsense.

[geek_usa]

I actually never thought it was possible to get worse...

 

but I compared my new mixes to some of the old mixes I did back in April...

 

 

the ones in April smoke the ones I have now. All of it sounds melded together... everything is tonally balanced, nothing fights, and the only small problem is a dash of mud here and there. I got all kinds of problems now. And I didn't even have monitors then

[Phil O'Keefe]

Now in response to the original post / question:

 

Yes. I feel that way more frequently than I would care to admit. However, my clients seem to really like the work I do - the "people who put expectations on me" are usually... me.

 

I don't compare my work to the studio down the street. That's not my competition. My competition is the greatest records I've ever heard - the ones that move me, that knocked me out or took my breath away with their sonic and musical brillance. And comparing myself to that, well, yes, it can get a bit depressing sometimes.

 

However, while I'm not trying to make any excuses for sucky work (and all modesty aside, I don't think I do sucky work ), I do think that at some point, art is something that is very difficult to compare. I mean really - you might be able to say you prefer Van Gogh over Monet, but isn't that really a personal preference? How can you say one person or the other is a better artist? At some point, it comes down to preference. And preferences vary.

 

I'm Chairman of the hard on yourself second guessers club. I do it all the time... but if you use that to push yourself to do better - to learn, to grow and improve, then it can be a (somewhat) good thing... but when you allow that to defeat you and to discourage you or to make you feel like you're worthless and should just quit, then it becomes damaging and destructive.

 

I'm not suggesting self-deception here... if you are not very good and you realize that, it can sting a bit... but if it's a fair and honest assessment (and it can be difficult to remain objective about yourself and your own work - that's one reason why most people / bands shouldn't "self produce" ) you then have a choice: Do you quit and find something you're better at and better suited to do, or do you get busy and get better?

 

So far, I've always picked "get busy and get better", but hey - it's only been about 27 years now that I've been into recording, so it's still early and the jury is still out... I'll have to get back to you in say, fifty years or so...

[Phil O'Keefe]

Originally posted by Kiwiburger Just ban me Phil and end this nonsense.

 

Well, Kiwi, since you don't have PM's enabled, I'll have to say this here in public instead of via a PM as I would have preferred.

 

First of all, I'm not sure what you mean by "this nonsense", but I don't think that really matters. If you mean the way I run the forum, you're entitled to your opinion, but the rules stand. If it's your problems with other forum members, then you can always ignore them - I've always felt the best way to deal with trolls and arguments for regular forumites was to report it to the moderator and then ignore it and deny them the attention they're after. It's the moderator's job to make sure the forum rules are honored and to enforce them.

 

I really have no desire to ban you Kiwi. You're a pretty knowledgeable guy and I feel you could have a lot to offer to the discussions around here. But I would like to ask you to refrain from provoking arguments. If you had a problem with someone else on the forum, I'm sorry about that - let me know about it and let me deal with it. But once it's over, it's over - don't perpetuate the problem by calling someone names and accusing them of having a POV or disagreement with you before they've even posted to the thread.

 

If you can follow the simple "don't call people names" rule, you're more than welcome here. And if you don't feel you can do that, you can excuse yourself, as we discussed previously. That's your decision to make either way, and you can make it yourself just as easily as I can ban you.

 

Or if you prefer to take a immature and unreasonable approach, you can screw up REALLY royaly and I will have no choice but to hit the switch and ban your IP. Do you really want to go out that way? IMO, it would be far better to excuse yourself if you don't want to participate here, or just follow the rules if you want to stick around and enjoy the discussions and contribute your knowledge. Your call. Personally, as I told you before, I hope you'll decide to stay... but if you do, I'll expect you to honor the rules of the forum, just as I expect everyone else to do likewise.

[GuitarPLayer61990]

I have some advice... Because I know where you're coming from

 

This advice is coming from a teen, but sometimes they are the ones that can best understand certain things. We're always faced with hardships, pressure (alocohol and drugs) among other things. It's some of the hardest years of your life because it seems like you're always dealt with some new BS on your plate.

 

I've had to deal with some much crap, especially music related. I've had a kid tell me I suck at mixing because his mixes didn't turn out like shep goodmans and kenny giola's in a matter of 7 hours. I've had names called at me, and everything.

 

All I can say is don't get discouraged. I used to think I suck to. Then I just worked hard to get through all the problems, and things became easier. Im not amazing by far, or even good compared to many people on here, but I keep working. Set goals for yourself. You're only as good as you let yourself be.

 

Danny

[Phil O'Keefe]

Well said Danny!

[Billster]

Originally posted by EngineGuitarist someone once asked me if i could mix a song to sound like something Andy Wallace mixed. instead of laughing i calmly said, yes. but it'll cost $5000 per song. just like he gets.

 

HAHAHAHAHA

 

Tell them it'll take some time too. Time while you get your skills up on a par with Andy Wallace. They can try to get Andy NOW, but they will probably be low on the totem pole and by the time their project lands in Andy's hands, enough time will have passed for you to bring your skillz up. So its the same either way.

[Lee Knight]

oops

[TonyCrazyMan]

Originally posted by geek_usa I finally got my masters back from my engineer. They sound like dog {censored} to say the least. This isn't a spot on him by any means, it was just the medium of what I recorded with and my skills. I tried my hand at mastering. It sounded better, but not professional. But most important it sounded better. But every new mix/master i tend to spit out, and I try it on different car players and cd players... there's always something missing. I always have to go in and tweak. By the end of the ride, I'm never smiling. Sometimes things get so hard. Some days I feel I just can't do it any more. My skills are below average at best. Any of you feel the same way? Like nothing you do matters, and people automatically put an "expectation" label on you for what they expect to hear, and are always disappointed because it does not sound like "so and so"? To top it off i'm depressed with other issues, so that doesn't help matters any. Closest I've come to crying in two weeks.

 

I can feel your sorrow, but hey, things will brighten up, I promise! You've gone through some busy and hard times and I'm sure that has taken some of the focus from you, but it doesn't have anything to do with the potential within yourself as an engineer. You had been hoping for a very beautiful sounding record and got dog {censored}, that's really common in this business! But do it like me, I'm really as pissed as you are right now! I'll buy a Rosetta 200 converter tomorrow, with my very hard earned bucks! Sometimes you need to take some risks in order to achieve new goals. Maybe you need a better converter too, who knows!

 

Another tip I want to mention in the context of dog {censored}: Look for bad sounding reverb in your signal chain and eliminate it! Chances are that you have been dealing with cheesy sounding reverbs for a long time now, it's time to dump it you know!

 

I hope that you will feel happy soon again!!

[ArrMatey]

to be honest, i totaly understand that as I'm still a begginer at mixing. I know it takes time and experience but sometimes, it's so discouraging and then sometime you have to accept that your mixes are not going to be the best. There is only so much one person can do with their stuff.

I am sure that if you ask around for tips all the time, from people who do good mixes, that you'll end up picking things that will help.

I am doing that because any help is good at this point.

 

One thing someone told me is that instead of boosting more certain instruments that are "drowned in the mix", how about cutting off from other instruments?

Like he told me that for a good heavy rock to cut under a certain value for guitars, even if they sound heavy. The heavyness will come from the instruments that should fill the lower spectrums.

Well I don't know how much that is true but it seems like a good idea.

 

Anyway, I am going through that too and I feel for you buddy because we all are in the same thing: trying to hone our skills to the best!

[lmiller1220]

Hey there!

 

I just wanted to pass along a little piece that a great friend and wonderful musician gave me a while back. He doesn't know who wrote it, but it is something that I keep on the wall at home in my humble studio (and also at work). It is certainly a little melodramatic in spots, but when I get to feeling like you have been feeling, it sometimes helps me look at things from 30,000 feet up so I can re-focus; it reminds me at a root level why I'm never really totally content with things and helps me to stop overanalyzing things.

 

For what it's worth:

 

____________________________________________________

 

There is vitality, a life force, a quickening that is translated through you into action, and because there is only one of you in all time, this expression is unique. And if you block it, it will never exist through any other medium and be lost. The world will not have it.

 

It is not your business to determine how good it is, nor how valuable it is, not how it compares with other expressions. It is your business to keep it yours clearly and directly, to keep the channel open. You do not even have to believe in your self or your work. You have to keep open and aware directly to the urges that motivate you. Keep the channel open.

 

No artist is ever pleased

[Phil O'Keefe]

lmiller1220, thanks for posting that!

[Eric Dahlberg]

Try Daved at The Eastgate for mastering:

 

http://www.theeastgate.net/mastering.html

 

He's really good at, shall we say, bringing out the "hidden beauty" of an otherwise unusable mix. Personally, when I was doing mastering work, I found that frequency balance was the biggest problem in most mixes & that a lot could be helped by simply getting that right. With the poor acoustics & sub-standard (if Ocean Way, et al, is considered the standard) monitoring situations most project studio engineers have to deal with, I figured it was par for the course!

[UstadKhanAli]

A few things...

 

First of all, your depression about other things is almost assuredly dampening your enthusiasm about mixing and mastering. Depression seems to color just about everything, making the world seem actually darker.

 

When you're mixing, have FUN. Why else are you doing it? If it's consistently drudgery, consider taking up needlepoint or gardening.

 

Stop constantly comparing yourself to other people, especially professionals who get *paid* to mix and master (and typically on very nice equipment!!!). Just have fun and enjoy the process and learn a little in the process (listen, listen, listen).

 

And finally, I sometimes have earlier mixes that sounded better. In fact, this sometimes frequently occurs after I've really labored over a mix, trying to fit pieces together. I'll go back and find that I've "taken the piss" from the mix, having gotten rid of a unique quality or energy that made the song special in the first place, maybe made the mix lifeless and dull. Not always, but sometimes. It happens. Go back and listen to why the older mix was better. At this point, I'm pretty good at tracking and mixing...and this *still* happens to me!!! I'm still perfectly capable of screwing up a mix!!!!

 

You just go back and think about why that is, and you can learn a lot about mixing and your own personal processes. That's good, innit?

 

You can screw up a mix even if it was tracked well (that's a whole 'nother story!!) by focusing too much on one aspect while causing problems in other areas (not seeing the forest for the trees). Or mixing when you are depressed, tired, or ear-fatigued. Or maybe you mistakenly turned the Suck Knob. Who knows.

 

But again, the whole thing is to have FUN. It *is* supposed to be enjoyable, right?

[UstadKhanAli]

Oh, crud...I'm late for rehearsal....

 

I'm just gonna dash off one thing here about Where, who gets hit on the head sometimes for being, I dunno, "caustic"?

 

I like the guy, and there's no doubt in my mind that the guy is super knowledgeable and quite logical. But he sometimes makes his point very emphatically. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and take a guess. I seem to remember he's from the Boston area. I've met a few people from Boston, and, well, at the risk of seriously stereotyping, I've noticed that many Bostonians make their points bluntly. But it's not a personal attack or anything. It's just a way of interacting. And some of us, especially us here on the West Coast, aren't always used to that.

 

But I think that's what's going on here.

 

And I say this because I'm friends with Fletcher and have met a lot of people from Boston in the past.

 

But I think they're quite often great people.

 

And I think maybe it just comes off weird in print.

 

And that's my Big Guess for the day, and you're welcome to agree, disagree, or anywhere in between!!

 

Gotta run!!!

[geek_usa]

Thank you for the support, guys.

 

Sometimes it just gets so hard to keep on keeping on. I managed to fix what I destroyed in the process by making some of the guitars louder and doing a bit of eq adjustment to the overall mix as a whole.

 

If you guys want to listen to the new mixes and critique them for me, just post here and give me the word, and i'll post a fresh batch of new mixes that I've finished.

 

I can't promise anything great - hell, all i had was an audio buddy and a few sub $100 microphones. Everything else was ran direct. But for what it's worth...

 

Anyhow I'd love your opinions if you're willing to give them,

 

 

~Jared

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Originally posted by geek_usa Thank you for the support, guys. Sometimes it just gets so hard to keep on keeping on. I managed to fix what I destroyed in the process by making some of the guitars louder and doing a bit of eq adjustment to the overall mix as a whole. I can't promise anything great - hell, all i had was an audio buddy and a few sub $100 microphones. Everything else was ran direct. But for what it's worth...

 

 

Yeah, you can always go back and put in what you liked about the earlier mix.

 

But what I really want to say is that given what you have, just about anything that sounds halfway decent should be hailed as a stellar achievement. I'm not being facetious.

 

With budget equipment, one has to be extremely resourceful to even get a sound that is decent. It's very very challenging.

 

When I had a bunch of cheap mics, one of the engineers for Billy Idol and Crosby, Stills and Nash came over to my house, along with a friend of mine, just to hang out. He checked out my studio, the Akai MG1214, everything, and then wanted to hear my stuff, recorded in my living room with Guitar Center cables and crappy mic preamps. I had really put a great deal of effort into it, but it was kinda midrangey and cluttered despite my best efforts to declare war on the low mids and midrange clutter dudring tracking and mixing.

 

So I was very reluctant to play anything, but he insisted. I played something I recorded with a rock band. He was genuinely impressed, exclaiming, "How did you get that good of a sound with what you have?"

 

I thought he was being polite, but when he left in the car with my friend, he kept saying that with what I had, what I had achieved was miraculous. Yes, he recognized that it was not nearly as good as the recordings he was creating, but that he would have great difficulty achieving such a good sound given the same circumstances and equipment!!!

 

So what I am trying to say with this story is to be realistic with your expectations. If you are working with only a few hundred or even a few thousand bucks worth of gear, how can you realistically expect to achieve the same sound as a professional who has been working for 20 years in an acoustically-treated room with equipment that probably costs as much as a space shuttle?

[geek_usa]

 

Originally posted by geek_usa Thank you for the support, guys. Sometimes it just gets so hard to keep on keeping on. I managed to fix what I destroyed in the process by making some of the guitars louder and doing a bit of eq adjustment to the overall mix as a whole. If you guys want to listen to the new mixes and critique them for me, just post here and give me the word, and i'll post a fresh batch of new mixes that I've finished. I can't promise anything great - hell, all i had was an audio buddy and a few sub $100 microphones. Everything else was ran direct. But for what it's worth... Anyhow I'd love your opinions if you're willing to give them, ~Jared

 

 

 

 

Finished mixes.

 

 

A softer side

 

http://s11.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1RNSJWPA5HLEA1OEWM4LWAFTJU

 

 

 

A heavier side

 

http://s11.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=34JJ5VTTEJBP52WNA2DJ4C9724

 

 

 

please those who have posted in this thread let me know what you think. links expire in 24 hours so please be sure to download them before then if you would like a listen. thank you!