Guitar output in dBu?

[Bluewater]

Anyone know offhand what an electric guitar's output level is (pickup output, that is, not amp output)? Impedance?

[Kiwiburger]

Pickup output varies a lot between models - but generally in the range of 100 mV to 1 Volt (AC of course).

 

Being a simple magnet/coil generator, they are very sensitive to impedance loading. Best results are obtained with very high impedance - typically 1 meg Ohmn. The most desirable guitar circuits have even higher impedance - up to 3 meg Ohm.

[Bluewater]

 

Originally posted by Kiwiburger Pickup output varies a lot between models - but generally in the range of 100 mV to 1 Volt (AC of course). Being a simple magnet/coil generator, they are very sensitive to impedance loading. Best results are obtained with very high impedance - typically 1 meg Ohmn. The most desirable guitar circuits have even higher impedance - up to 3 meg Ohm.

 

 

Thanks, Kiwiburger. Looking at the specs of the Lexicon MPX1, I assume this means I can plug a guitar directly into the unit without the need for a direct box.

[Kiwiburger]

No, you would want a DI box for that. The "Operating levels from -10dB to +4dB" means it is designed for Semi-pro unbalanced and Pro Balanced Line levels.

 

By guitar - do you mean electric or acoustic? I wouldn't expect this to have any decent amp simulation - so you might want something like a Pod or Sansamp in front. Ideally, you would be mic'ing up a real amp, and using this at mix time - perhaps using the s/pdif i/o to avoid converter losses.

 

For live - a really nice arrangement would be a 3 amp combination. The middle amp to give your dry tone, and the the two outside amps as a stereo rig for the 100% wet stereo effects from the Lexicon.

[where02190]

In -10, you could plug your guitar directly into the Lexicon. If you ran through a direct box to the Lexicon, you'd then be feeding the Lex mic level signal, way to low and the wrong impedance for either the +4 or -10 line level input of the Lexicon.

[Bluewater]

 

Originally posted by Kiwiburger No, you would want a DI box for that. The "Operating levels from -10dB to +4dB" means it is designed for Semi-pro unbalanced and Pro Balanced Line levels. By guitar - do you mean electric or acoustic? I wouldn't expect this to have any decent amp simulation - so you might want something like a Pod or Sansamp in front. Ideally, you would be mic'ing up a real amp, and using this at mix time - perhaps using the s/pdif i/o to avoid converter losses. For live - a really nice arrangement would be a 3 amp combination. The middle amp to give your dry tone, and the the two outside amps as a stereo rig for the 100% wet stereo effects from the Lexicon.

 

 

Electric guitar. I'm happy with my amps, so I don't need a simulator for that. One of my amps doesn't have reverb, so I was looking for a unit to do double duty: 1) a reverb/multi-effects in front of my amp for either live or studio work, and 2) a unit with good reverb that I can use during mixing in the studio because I don't like the sound (or processor time) of the software reverbs.

 

It seems that Where02190 thinks a direct box isn't needed (nor would it be appropriate). So why the difference of opinion if we're dealing with signal levels -- seems there's only one correct answer..

 

Thanks to both of you for the help.

[Kiwiburger]

 

Originally posted by where02190 In -10, you could plug your guitar directly into the Lexicon. If you ran through a direct box to the Lexicon, you'd then be feeding the Lex mic level signal, way to low and the wrong impedance for either the +4 or -10 line level input of the Lexicon.

 

 

True. I was refering to Guitar Specific DI boxes, like Sansamp or Pod. These present the guitar pickup with a hi-z input, and provide the tone-shaping (eq & distortion) that makes an electric guitar sound like an electric guitar.

 

With a few exceptions, I rarely like the sound of a clean full range electric guitar. Maybe the Lexicon has an amp sim? That might be tolerable.

 

Just personally, I would rather get a guitar tone i liked before adding reverb.

[Kiwiburger]

OK - just seen that you are using amps. Do you have an insert point on your amp?

 

The Lexicon would sound stunning in stereo - so you could run two amps with the Lexicon processing both mono insert channels.

 

Or try the 3 amp setup - it's the best because you still have great tone from the centre amp.

[Kiwiburger]

 

It seems that Where02190 thinks a direct box isn't needed (nor would it be appropriate). So why the difference of opinion if we're dealing with signal levels -- seems there's only one correct answer..

With audio gear, there are always many ways to do things, and always many opinions.

 

In my opinion, it's unprofessional to inject a guitar pickup into a -10 line level processor. It might work after a fashion, but if you are buying a Lexicon, you don't want to shoot yourself in the foot with less-than-ideal workarounds.

 

Passive guitar pickups are sensitive to impedance - the higher the better. I'm guessing most digital boxes have input impedances around 500k or so - probably not 1 or 2 meg. That simply means your guitar has to deliver a little more current, and possibly loses some tone.

 

There is a reason that audio gear has different inputs for Mics, Instruments and Line. But sometimes there is some cross-over, where things can work but not ideally.

 

My main concern about running a guitar into a Lexicon and then into the front-end of a guitar amp (or two) is due to the gain. Digital reverbs can be a little hissy - depends on the quality of converters, and certainly the newer 24 bit ones are quieter than the old 16 bit ones.

 

You will get better results with digital effects running them at line level. The gain that is often used to get your guitar tone will amplify any digital hiss or noise to unacceptable levels. If you can use a line level effects send/return, you get much cleaner results.

[Bluewater]

 

Originally posted by Kiwiburger With audio gear, there are always many ways to do things, and always many opinions. In my opinion, it's unprofessional to inject a guitar pickup into a -10 line level processor. It might work after a fashion, but if you are buying a Lexicon, you don't want to shoot yourself in the foot with less-than-ideal workarounds. Passive guitar pickups are sensitive to impedance - the higher the better. I'm guessing most digital boxes have input impedances around 500k or so - probably not 1 or 2 meg. That simply means your guitar has to deliver a little more current, and possibly loses some tone. There is a reason that audio gear has different inputs for Mics, Instruments and Line. But sometimes there is some cross-over, where things can work but not ideally. My main concern about running a guitar into a Lexicon and then into the front-end of a guitar amp (or two) is due to the gain. Digital reverbs can be a little hissy - depends on the quality of converters, and certainly the newer 24 bit ones are quieter than the old 16 bit ones. You will get better results with digital effects running them at line level. The gain that is often used to get your guitar tone will amplify any digital hiss or noise to unacceptable levels. If you can use a line level effects send/return, you get much cleaner results.

 

 

Yeah, this whole pro-level, balanced, line level vs. consumer level, unbalanced, mic-level has generated lots of opinions but no consensus on what's "correct." For example, my mic manufacturr tech support says to use the -10 level (mic level) on my Echo Audiofire, while Echo tech support says to use +4!

 

Anyway, it sounds like the Lexicon would best be positioned in the effects send/return loop on my amp. Unfortunately, not all of my amps have an effects loop. I like the idea of two amps in stereo with the Lexicon though. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Kiwiburger]

You're welcome! I've done some digging, and it would seem that the Lexicon MXP1 has an input impedance of 500k, so my guess was right.

 

But it turns out that 500k is quite commonly for guitar amps, so you should be able to connect a guitar with no impedance issues. Although higher impedance appears to be better. Most guitar processors and good guitar DI boxes (Countryman) are 1Meg. The really good stuff (Avalon U5) is 3 meg. So I was sort of wrong and right on this impeance issue.

 

But I still think it's unwise to feed digital effects through your high gain/distortion input stage of your amp. Both because it boosts the noise of the digital box, but also because you get different results. E.g. - do you want a distorted reverb, or do you want a distorted guitar with reverb applied - I usuall prefer the latter.

 

A splitter pedal, Lexicon, clean stereo amp and a couple of cabs would go very nice with your main amp

[where02190]

Guitar-Lex in(-10) lex out(-10) amp input will work. but not ideal.

 

Yes something like a Sansamp that outputs line level to the Lex would be a better solution, but not a traditional DI. (for reasons explained earlier.)

 

However I agree, that neither of these are "good" solutions. What you need is a processor specifically designed for insturment level input and amp level output, or amps with effects loops, which are designed for line level signals.

 

Not saying this setup won't work, but it could tend to be noisy, and gain structure will be critical to getting a good quality sound with minimal noise.