Members Cldplytkmn Posted September 20, 2005 Members Share Posted September 20, 2005 Saw a funny sign in GC yesterday... and although i'm not a regular here, nor am i a qualified poster regarding recording of any kind (i did buy a BLUE though... haha)... Hanging behind a few Neumanns was a little sign that said "Tell them you use Neumann, you can charge them more"... I asked one of the salesmen if they thought it was really a good idea to have something like that up and he just shrugged... i only post it here to say that i wouldn't pay more for someones engineering skills based on them having this or that mic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted September 20, 2005 Share Posted September 20, 2005 I had a prospective client come in once, and he was one of those "buzz word" type people - he knew a few brand names of some studio products, but wouldn't have known the sonic differences if they slapped him upside the ears. Anyway, I pulled a pair of vintage Telefunken ELA M 251 E's out of the mic closet, and he responded "yeah dood, but they're not Neumann's, so they can't be any good..." Thankfully, they decided to go to another studio... "Neumann" is one of those "buzz words" that clients seem to know, even if they're otherwise clueless about gear. "Pro Tools" is another one... I'm sure you can all think of a few more. But I'm surprised that GC would allow a sign like that in the store... just as soon as the BLUE rep (or another decent mic company's rep) shows up, they're not going to be very happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cldplytkmn Posted September 20, 2005 Author Members Share Posted September 20, 2005 it almost looked like they printed it off their computer... i'm sure that Neumann wouldn't market something that way (i hope). A producer/engineer buddy of mine, who works with Steinberg stuff primarily, says that a few of the studios he works with advertise themselves being a "Pro Tools Capable" facitility, when they in fact don't use it. Do engineers think musicians are suckers? haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MarkGifford-1 Posted September 20, 2005 Moderators Share Posted September 20, 2005 Originally posted by Cldplytkmn A producer/engineer buddy of mine, who works with Steinberg stuff primarily, says that a few of the studios he works with advertise themselves being a "Pro Tools Capable" facitility, when they in fact don't use it.Do engineers think musicians are suckers? haha We have a note on our website saying that we're "PT Compatible" - which we are. I don't think we've lost OR gained a project because of it, tho. We've regularly tracked stuff for other platforms and have never had a problem with it translating. There's not really many studios around here and we have a decent rep, so I guess that counts for something, too. Our typical client starts and ends at our room, so it doesn't really matter what we do it on as long as they're happy. MG PS - Neumann DOES have a certain cachet... My buddy does their ads, and he came up with the slogan "For those who can tell the difference." Sums up perfectly their place in the market, IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted September 20, 2005 Share Posted September 20, 2005 Neumann DOES have a certain cachet... My buddy does their ads, and he came up with the slogan "For those who can tell the difference." Sums up perfectly their place in the market, IMHO. IMO, Neumann's rep is primarily based upon mics that they have not made in years - decades in some cases. It's not that I think they make BAD mics, but rather that I think the current lineup isn't up to past standards, and IMHO, there are usually better options available at similar price points from companies such as Brauner, Korby, Soundelux, Gefell, etc. Of course, as Fletcher says, YMMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jackcheez Posted September 20, 2005 Members Share Posted September 20, 2005 I've told this before but it bears repeating. I have a client who owns a U87. He uses my AT 4050 when he comes over. It just sounds better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MarkGifford-1 Posted September 20, 2005 Moderators Share Posted September 20, 2005 Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe Neumann DOES have a certain cachet... My buddy does their ads, and he came up with the slogan "For those who can tell the difference." Sums up perfectly their place in the market, IMHO. IMO, Neumann's rep is primarily based upon mics that they have not made in years - decades in some cases. It's not that I think they make BAD mics, but rather that I think the current lineup isn't up to past standards, and IMHO, there are usually better options available at similar price points from companies such as Brauner, Korby, Soundelux, Gefell, etc. Of course, as Fletcher says, YMMV. This is probably true - but nonetheless, they have that market perception, especially amongst people who aren't in the studios all day. That and the fact that about 90% of the interviews thye read w/famous engineers extoll the virtues of 'em, and the vast majority of classic recordings were made using them. Perfect correlation is the Fender Strat and Gibson Les Paul. There are probably better guitars out there, but what are the ones that EVERY kid wants, and that almost every adult between the ages of 20-60 in the US knows? Plus, the old ones are the real killers, new ones are just OK. I was gigging at an outdoor festival this summer - took my PRS and a Goldtop LP. Some folks were there watching us set up and as soon as the LP came out of the case, a Dad poked his gradeschool age daughter and said "Look, that's a Les Paul." I thought it was pretty funny, but it goes to show what 50 years of brand awareness can do for a product... MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Meriphew Posted September 20, 2005 Members Share Posted September 20, 2005 Originally posted by MarkGifford-1 This is probably true - but nonetheless, they have that market perception, especially amongst people who aren't in the studios all day. That and the fact that about 90% of the interviews thye read w/famous engineers extoll the virtues of 'em, and the vast majority of classic recordings were made using them. True, but that's changing. There's a few modern mic manufacturers (Brauner, Soundelux, Korby, etc.) that are really making a big impact in the world of recording. At this pace, if Neumann doesn't get with the program, their name will slowly fade away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dave D Posted September 20, 2005 Members Share Posted September 20, 2005 This would be funnier if it happened to somebody else and not me but... A couple of weeks ago a friend of mine went out and bought some $99 Oktiva tube mics that was on sale at GC. He dropped one by the studio for me to check out, I was very leary about the mic knowing the build quality. Well the mic sat in it's box for a couple of weeks and then one morning I decided what the hell I'll check it out. So I loaded up a song into my DAW and did a vocal take with my Neumann U87 and then the Oktiva. When I A/B'd them I was shocked. The Oktiva sounded way better than I ever thought it would, after I corrected the low frequency bump on the Oktiva and added a little more shimmer to it it was so close to the Neumann that it was negligable. I thought it would be lacking the detail but it was right up there with the Neumann. I'm not saying the U87 is the holy grail of vocal mics by a long shot but given the price differences between the 2 mics the difference should have been huge. I didn't get the chance to try it out on something like an acoustic guitar but I have a feeling the U87 would have came out ahead, especially on the bottom end. The Octiva didn't have very much of a dynamic range and I'm sure a real dynamic singer would have ripped it to shreads but... Granted this is 1 song with 1 singer and the Oktiva is built like crap but it opened up my eyes to that fact that the times they are a changing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members seaneldon Posted September 21, 2005 Members Share Posted September 21, 2005 i never understood the anti-U87 thing that's on every audio forum in the world. i'll admit that i bought one "just to have one", but this was way after my mic closet was full of greatness. i got a great deal on a used-yet-mint U87Ai ($1300 if you're wondering) because the guy bought a pair and only used one. even though it's primarily categorized as "aggressive vocal mic", i primarily use it as a mic for jazz/doowop/scat vocalists who need to sound smoother than silk and the U87 completely nails it. Also killer as a mono or stereo overhead or room mic, and there's not many other mics in my cabinet (especially cheaper ones like tons of people report) that can touch it with the longest of poles in the "depth and detail" category. it sounds like an expensive mic, that's for sure. maybe it doesn't sound like $2,849 by my goodness for $1300 i feel like it was a good addition. more so than any other microphone i've come across, however, it seems that people sound better through the U87 when they have used them before. some first timers tend to be freaked out by how sensitive it is compared to other "main vocal mics" they've used, especially people who have no experience with anything other than holding an SM58. to make things a bit tougher on everyone, compared to a lot of mics, it's a lot more "picky" as to which preamp is going to work well. oh well. some people hate them. i know i get a lot of use out of mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members CN Fletcher Posted September 21, 2005 Members Share Posted September 21, 2005 Originally posted by Cldplytkmn Do engineers think musicians are suckers? No, but when those musicians try to play the "I know 8 buzzwords and I'm going to use every one of them so I can impress you with the width and breadth of my knowledge" game... we think they're morons. There is a difference. Originally posted by MarkGifford-1 PS - Neumann DOES have a certain cachet... My buddy does their ads, and he came up with the slogan "For those who can tell the difference". Sums up perfectly their place in the market, IMHO. Indeed it does... but not in the manner in which they imply. Originally posted by meriphew True, but that's changing. There's a few modern mic manufacturers (Brauner, Soundelux, Korby, etc.) that are really making a big impact in the world of recording. At this pace, if Neumann doesn't get with the program, their name will slowly fade away. Their name will not "fade away" as the company will not "fade away"... but they have diminished the value of the name much in the way that AKG has devalued their name. Now, if you look at AKG, they're selling way more product than ever before and earning well for their masters... so was the cheapening of the brand a good thing or a bad thing? Bad if you're using the product, good if you're making or selling the product... which is exactly the path on which Sennheiser has placed Neumann. The Sennheiser people really couldn't give two {censored}s about the quality of the product, they care deeply about "units sold" and the "quarterly bottom line". All companies are in a permanent state of growth [or shrinkage], once a company grows past a certain point it's about the bottom line and nothing else. Cash flow is king... in all honesty the governors of Sennheiser could care less that they're making microphones or headphones... if they could build refrigerators and sell them they'd be just as happy doing that as microphones and headphones... but seeing as their manufacturing lines are tooled up to microphones and headphones, and they've already done a bunch of decades building "brand awareness" for microphones and headphones, they're going to stick to microphones and headphones instead of building refrigerators... as long as quarterly earnings are stable and growing. If for some reason they start to decline... then maybe they'll look into the acquisition of a refrigerator company if that company looks like it can do good business with a little bit of extra marketing muscle behind it... in the meanwhile, here's your new Neumann. Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cldplytkmn Posted September 21, 2005 Author Members Share Posted September 21, 2005 i didn't mean to instigate anything regarding the quality of the mics... but an appropriate sign should have read "work your ass off, get clients, get better, get better clients, get even better, charge more." IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members geek_usa Posted September 24, 2005 Members Share Posted September 24, 2005 I personally don't care what the mic says. If the situation calls for it, I'll use it; regardless if it says Neumann on it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted September 24, 2005 Share Posted September 24, 2005 though it's primarily categorized as "aggressive vocal mic", i primarily use it as a mic for jazz/doowop/scat vocalists who need to sound smoother than silk and the U87 completely nails it. I have it on pretty rock solid reports (via Richard Carpenter) that a U87 was the usual vocal mic on Karen Carpenter, and that voice was about as rich and smooth as you'll ever find... but then again, Richard has also said that she sounded good in any mic, and that it was just "her voice". And honestly, I would have liked to have heard her through a good U67 instead, but that's just MY preferences. But the U87 isn't a BAD mic IMO... it's just not what I normally prefer when I have other great mics as alternatives. Again (sorry Fletcher, I'll send you a royalty check ) YMMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members CN Fletcher Posted September 24, 2005 Members Share Posted September 24, 2005 I have it on pretty good recollection that Karen Carpenter was dead by the time Neumann released the current model of the U-87... which is called the U-87A. This has a different capsule than the original U-87 and a different amplifier than the original U-87 and a different output transformer than the original U-87... other than that they're identical [in other words the U-87A looks like a real U-87 from the front... if you look at the back you won't see a "battery life meter slot" in the body tube which means the mic is an 87A]. The original U-87 that Karen Carpenter may very well have sang in her smooth and silky manner also didn't go through a "Grace" [or similar] pre-amplifier... nor did it ever see an A/D converter, nor was it summed inside Pro-sTools... so, while the end net result was nice, and smooth, and rich, and full... chances of getting that with a "snappy" sounding mic like the current U-87A aren't impossible... but it's a damn slim chance. Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members spokenward Posted September 24, 2005 Members Share Posted September 24, 2005 Around 1992, when project studios were less fashionable, I called the Neumann rep and was advised that they only sold to professional facilities. That still tickles me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members geek_usa Posted September 24, 2005 Members Share Posted September 24, 2005 Originally posted by spokenward Around 1992, when project studios were less fashionable, I called the Neumann rep and was advised that they only sold to professional facilities. That still tickles me. That quote right there alone might prevent me from ever buying a Neumann at cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted September 24, 2005 Share Posted September 24, 2005 Originally posted by Fletcher@mercenary.com I have it on pretty good recollection that Karen Carpenter was dead by the time Neumann released the current model of the U-87... which is called the U-87A. U87Ai, but why quibble? Because... This has a different capsule than the original U-87 and a different amplifier than the original U-87 and a different output transformer than the original U-87... ...AFAIK, all these things are true, and all would be expected to make significant changes to the sound of a microphone. other than that they're identical [in other words the U-87A looks like a real U-87 from the front... if you look at the back you won't see a "battery life meter slot" in the body tube which means the mic is an 87A].The original U-87 that Karen Carpenter may very well have sang in her smooth and silky manner also didn't go through a "Grace" [or similar] pre-amplifier... nor did it ever see an A/D converter, nor was it summed inside Pro-sTools... so, while the end net result was nice, and smooth, and rich, and full... chances of getting that with a "snappy" sounding mic like the current U-87A aren't impossible... but it's a damn slim chance. Peace. I agree Fletcher. But I guess what I'm trying to say (and I think you'd probably agree) is that folks can't just say "U87" without specifying WHICH model of the "U87" they're talking about... like an AKG C12 vs an AKG C12 VR, or a KM84 vs a KM184, they're really two different beasts. MY bad for not mentioning these differences in my past post. Actually, I believe there were really THREE versions of the U87 - the U87, U87 A and the current U87 Ai. And my comments about "not normally preferring the U87, but not thinking it is a bad mic" are based mostly on the oldest models (U87) and I generally agree that the U87Ai, other than being a bit quieter, is a downgrade in most other sonic respects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted September 24, 2005 Members Share Posted September 24, 2005 Most people who record here don't give a rat's ass what I'm using, although unsheathing the Lawson L251 often elicits oooohs and aaaahs. But I did have one person show up once, puttin' on airs, asking if I had a "New-man". After he pronounced it this way several times, I politely corrected his pronunciation. He paused for a second, then said, "No it's not. It's NEW-man." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Eric Dahlberg Posted September 25, 2005 Members Share Posted September 25, 2005 Criticisms aside (most of which I completely agree with, btw), an M149 is likely the best new mic you'll see in a GC. What boggles my mind is why TLM103's get so much props. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted September 25, 2005 Members Share Posted September 25, 2005 Originally posted by iop I pulled out a $30 Oktava 219 and the $2000 U87i.He could not believe that a $30 mic could out do a Neumann. Where are you getting an Oktava 219 for $30? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members iop Posted September 25, 2005 Members Share Posted September 25, 2005 A guitar center opened here and that was there blow out opening weekend. I actually got two MK219 under $60 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted September 25, 2005 Share Posted September 25, 2005 Originally posted by UstadKhanAli I did have one person show up once, puttin' on airs, asking if I had a "New-man". After he pronounced it this way several times, I politely corrected his pronunciation. He paused for a second, then said, "No it's not. It's NEW-man." "I know 8 buzzwords and I'm going to use every one of them so I can impress you with the width and breadth of my knowledge" Well, he KINDA knows the buzzword... he just didn't know how to pronounce it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted September 25, 2005 Share Posted September 25, 2005 Originally posted by UstadKhanAli Where are you getting an Oktava 219 for $30? GC has been blowing all the Oktava mics out... I believe they're going to stop carrying them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members iop Posted September 26, 2005 Members Share Posted September 26, 2005 GC has been blowing all the Oktava mics out... I believe they're going to stop carrying them. MusiciansfriendThey were blowing out MK 012 in pairs for $99 last year you could buy a boat load of Oktava for next to nothing. I am sorry I didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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