Members BlueStrat Posted April 5, 2011 Author Members Share Posted April 5, 2011 Alright, I've calmed down a enough to say a couple things.Personally, the idea of always holding up European classical music as some high standard for Divine human artistic output doesn't set well with me - but that's a whole 'nother discussion."Where's the next 5th Symphony?" That's a horribly wrong-headed question. Those held up as geniuses used the tools of the time. If Bach or Beethoven were around now, they'd probably use turntables, computers, samplers, modular synths, or would make up their own sonic devices. In any case, genius surely doesn't abide by anyone's rules or time table, nor will it appear in a form that's fully understood or appreciated at the time.A genius in the modern world would probably say "F@ck Beethoven" and charge that his music and the entire edifice that placed him in his place of prominence is outmoded; then would proceed to create new musical paradigm that's probably only been hinted at earlier in history.To be clear, yes I enjoy classical music. A lot. But I'm more of a Messiean/Lutoslawski/Bartok/Dutilleux guy than a Bach/Beethoven/Mozart guy. All this is well and good, but entirely misses the point of the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Poker99 Posted April 5, 2011 Members Share Posted April 5, 2011 There will always be people who insist on couching a debate in absolutes because they prefer dichotomous thinking ... As another poster said , a consensus can be agreed upon between reasonable people , and then there is the test of time .... but I guess that the experts are making people still listen to that old moldy stuff ..... THIS. and this. [video=youtube;ly1iTD0zB1Y] No video. No boobs. No computer graphics. Pure musical bliss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members b_f_c_99 Posted April 5, 2011 Members Share Posted April 5, 2011 I just don't think there CAN be anything original anymore, especially in pop/rock/blues/country modern music. Unless you consider having different lyrics over chord progressions and melodies that have been pounded on for the last hundred years. Pat, your my favorite person here on HC, and generally I look for what you have to say on just about any thread going. However, the music world we grew up in is gone, not coming back, just like the horsewhip and buggy industry after those "fads" started rolling out of the Ford Motor company plant. If we were given the technology of today, 30 years ago, would we be any different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PermaNoobie Posted April 5, 2011 Members Share Posted April 5, 2011 I just don't think there CAN be anything original anymore, especially in pop/rock/blues/country modern music. Unless you consider having different lyrics over chord progressions and melodies that have been pounded on for the last hundred years. There is a cultural anthro term for that concept : "pattern exhaustion" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cliftonb Posted April 5, 2011 Members Share Posted April 5, 2011 All this is well and good, but entirely misses the point of the OP. No it doesn't. People say they can't find any works of genius anymore, and I say it's highly probable that it won't be understood or even recognized until well after the fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted April 5, 2011 Members Share Posted April 5, 2011 All this is well and good, but entirely misses the point of the OP. totally I'm more of a Messiean/Lutoslawski/Bartok/Dutilleux guy than a Bach/Beethoven/Mozart guy ^comedy for us composers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted April 5, 2011 Members Share Posted April 5, 2011 No it doesn't. People say they can't find any works of genius anymore, and I say it's highly probable that it won't be understood or even recognized until well after the fact. music which is not understood, is useless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted April 5, 2011 Members Share Posted April 5, 2011 a good pianola roll plays it as good as that boobless bloke, but a pianola by rachmaninoff is something else then a bloke who possibly never compose a single measure of music, only practiced a little too much. The opinons of the recipient is basically of no significance to the composer. No video. No boobs. No computer graphics. Pure musical bliss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cliftonb Posted April 6, 2011 Members Share Posted April 6, 2011 totally Old guy says young people and their technology are killing music. How could I miss that point? It's the only thing anyone ever talks about around here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted April 6, 2011 Members Share Posted April 6, 2011 Old guy says young people and their technology are killing music. similar things where said about the steam engine, but the steam engine came, and disappeared again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cliftonb Posted April 6, 2011 Members Share Posted April 6, 2011 ^comedy for us composers That's a baffling statement. I'm a composer myself and I don't believe that of any of the above mentioned composers. That is unless you think Quartet for the end of Time or something like Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima is somehow funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted April 6, 2011 Members Share Posted April 6, 2011 That's a baffling statement. I'm a composer myself and I don't believe that of any of the above mentioned composers. That is unless you think Quartet for the end of Time or something like Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima is somehow funny. I think Olivier Messiaen is funny. He himself as person was a pretty depressed boring bloke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RockViolin Posted April 6, 2011 Members Share Posted April 6, 2011 No it doesn't. People say they can't find any works of genius anymore, and I say it's highly probable that it won't be understood or even recognized until well after the fact. I've heard very little that was created in the last 10 years or so that I'd say are works of genius. As a matter of fact, nothing. But maybe I've just not found it. I've been busy. (Perhaps you could point us to something that you think has a shot at the title?) Nevertheless, I think that the word 'genius' gets tossed around a quite loosely, and that not all geniuses are created equal. Some find a square of sunlight, some are nearly as bright as the sun itself. That so many now cannot tell the difference is disheartening. Without hesitation I can speak of King Crimson, Weather Report, Jaco, Prince and others... some great stuff in my opinion. But I can't put them in even the same room Richard Strauss, Wagner, Prokofiev, Ravel, or Stravinsky. There are some geniuses by which others pale, for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cliftonb Posted April 6, 2011 Members Share Posted April 6, 2011 For you - I can agree with that. But does it always have to be European Classical vs. Everything Else when it comes to musical greatness? LIke I said, I personally take major issue with the mentality that perpetuates that view of human artistic output. Things evolve - people's way of evaluating art is going to evolve also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted April 6, 2011 Members Share Posted April 6, 2011 "European Classical vs. Everything Else" people who think in such categories are somewhat limited in spirit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RockViolin Posted April 6, 2011 Members Share Posted April 6, 2011 For you - I can agree with that. But does it always have to be European Classical vs. Everything Else when it comes to musical greatness? LIke I said, I personally take major issue with the mentality that perpetuates that view of human artistic output. Things evolve - people's way of evaluating art is going to evolve also. Then take issue. Offer up something from the "everything else." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted April 6, 2011 Members Share Posted April 6, 2011 Ha, how are you? do you still have my email adress stored? I PM you my email, I may call you if I find my old telephone booklet. Have some ideas how to use your fabulous violin playing on an upcoming album. I've heard very little that was created in the last 10 years or so that I'd say are works of genius. As a matter of fact, nothing. But maybe I've just not found it. I've been busy. (Perhaps you could point us to something that you think has a shot at the title?) Nevertheless, I think that the word 'genius' gets tossed around a quite loosely, and that not all geniuses are created equal. Some find a square of sunlight, some are nearly as bright as the sun itself. That so many now cannot tell the difference is disheartening.Without hesitation I can speak of King Crimson, Weather Report, Jaco, Prince and others... some great stuff in my opinion. But I can't put them in even the same room Richard Strauss, Wagner, Prokofiev, Ravel, or Stravinsky. There are some geniuses by which others pale, for me. Before anyone can see the difference between a Weather report and a Richard Strauss, one may has to study at least four years music at a University professional harmony and composition program Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flatfinger Posted April 6, 2011 Members Share Posted April 6, 2011 people's way of evaluating art is going to evolve also. Music communicates emotion , that's what it does or doesn't , nothing about that evolves . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted April 6, 2011 Members Share Posted April 6, 2011 Things evolve - people's way of evaluating art is going to evolve also. don't think so there is not reason why the recipient should develope in evaluating art he simply enjoys something, or not, and he has endless choices Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cliftonb Posted April 6, 2011 Members Share Posted April 6, 2011 An individual's taste in music may change over time for various reasons. Collectively, people evolve as far as what they want or think is important in music. It ain't that hard a concept to grasp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flatfinger Posted April 6, 2011 Members Share Posted April 6, 2011 don't think sothere is not reason why the recipient should develope in evaluating arthe simply enjoys something, or not, and he has endless choices I agree from the stand point of "personal " evolution ; But music's function is the same wheter or not the listener's "evaluation" powers evolve ! Most don't need to analyze theoretically ..... they just know that a certian tune has got hooks ! I agree a persons taste change , but it doesn't have to have a correlation to them knowing more about how music works ; they may just change as a person , thus their taste change ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted April 6, 2011 Members Share Posted April 6, 2011 music has many different functions that people change is total natural, but somewhat irrelevant to music to a certain degree all people analyze music when they listen a hook is only one motif or phrase among hundreds of other musical forms that music can awaken energies in the recipient is also natural Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted April 6, 2011 Author Members Share Posted April 6, 2011 An individual's taste in music may change over time for various reasons. Collectively, people evolve as far as what they want or think is important in music. It ain't that hard a concept to grasp. Which is exactly the OPs point. The mistake we make is in assuming that evolution is always upwards and better. We have evolved from a culture that appreciates genius and cultivates that which strives to reveal our better selves to one that simply employs relativism to redefine genius and greatness to be whatever we say it is. And not just in music, either. Where once there were clear standards of greatness, we now have "evolved" into an intellectually lazy egalitarianism of all things being more or less equal, with genius being merely a matter of opinion. Case in point: the sheer number of times I've heard the words "Genius" and "Lady Gaga" in the same sentence. Will symphonies and college writing programs be performing and dissecting "Poker Face" in 300 years? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it. The hubris of each generation is a given, but compared to the effort, knowledge, and skill it used to take to write a piece of music, today's stuff is pocket lint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted April 6, 2011 Members Share Posted April 6, 2011 Q: Genius, Lady Gaga, 1910 Fruitgum Company, Ohio Express... who gives a damn when this names appear in the same sentence? A:People who have no clue what music is made of, and people who use their personal taste for making up a useless absolute scale what is genius and what is not genius. This and more even thus this people couldn't play a clave in any of the bubble gum bands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flatfinger Posted April 6, 2011 Members Share Posted April 6, 2011 A disturbing amount of folks seem to have issues with discerning the difference between music and musical fashions ............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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