Members RockViolin Posted April 4, 2011 Members Share Posted April 4, 2011 Thank you! It's amazing that so many are afraid to go sooooooo far out on a limb because of political correctness or something.... It's as though the fable of the Emperor's new clothes never taught anyone a thing and we are unable to say when something just isn't that great . Something can serve as entertainment at the time , but not be able to stand the test of time . I'm not saying there's something wrong with that , but we should be able to make that distinction ; It's not that hard really . The real fault is believing the snake oil salesman who are telling us that we have a meritocracy with the new tech . What we have is chaos and a resultant mediocrity that claims to be a meritocracy !!! That and the love of free that is in reality penny wise and pound foolish and will , as the authors arguments stated , bring predictable results . You're Wecome! One thing the author of the piece fails to mention is how thoroughly the master composers of the 19th century worked the mine. They left very, very few stones unturned. Ergo the tone row. So, might as well strap on a guitar, bang out 2 or 3 chords, and shake yer ass for the girls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Surrealistic Posted April 4, 2011 Members Share Posted April 4, 2011 Who cares?! Ignorance of the masses should not be a factor, at all. No, its because they changed music and that we still listen to them 300 years later. By the way, why not trust the judgment of people who study music, who perform the hardest and highest forms of music for years in the most competitive environnement possible? Why should it be hard to at the very least respect what they are saying? Its not about forcing anyone to like Beethoven or classical music... Its not for everyone... This is a difficult area I think. It has to be said that it's hard to come up with a totally objective statement of fact that shows the likes of Beethoven to be "better" than [insert someone else of your choosing here]. It seems the only argument given is by appeal to authority - and that's not a very strong argument. Now, I like Beethoven and I can appreciate the learning, dedication to his craft, technical ability and sheer ambition of what he and other classical composers acheived; creating 3-4 minute popular songs isn't really comparable. However the likes of (for the sake of argument) the Beatles or the Beach Boys didn't try to create music on that scale so it's churlish to compare them unfavourably IMHO. If no-one creates great orchestral works these days maybe it's because the best they could hope to achieve would be to come close to emulating something that's been done already. We moved forward in the 20th Century - okay, maybe "forward" isn't the right term as it carries too much baggage but we undoubtedly moved. I'm not going to say that Jazz, Soul, Rock, Swing, Rhythm & Blues et al are "better" than classical music, but I will say I'm glad those musical forms were invented. Edited to add: at the risk of this becoming too much of a patting-each-other-on-the-back fest, I liked your post too richardmac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RockViolin Posted April 4, 2011 Members Share Posted April 4, 2011 . It seems the only argument given is by appeal to authority - and that's not a very strong argument. Now, I like Beethoven and I can appreciate the learning, dedication to his craft, technical ability and sheer ambition of what he and other classical composers acheived; creating 3-4 minute popular songs isn't really comparable. However the likes of (for the sake of argument) the Beatles or the Beach Boys didn't try to create music on that scale so it's churlish to compare them unfavourably IMHO. They shouldn't be compared period. How does a sleek, shiny desk fan compare to hurricane? Mozart to Beethoven is at least apples to oranges. Mylie Cyrus to Gutav Mahler is something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Surrealistic Posted April 4, 2011 Members Share Posted April 4, 2011 They shouldn't be compared period. How does a sleek, shiny desk fan compare to hurricane? Mozart to Beethoven is at least apples to oranges. Mylie Cyrus to Gutav Mahler is something else.Well yes, that was part of the point. In that case it follows that the author's argument being discussed here is already on shaky ground. I don't think he can say with absolute authority that the music of the 20th Century compares badly with that of the 19th because they are "apples and oranges" at best - perhaps a better analogy would be Fillet Mignon and Sandwiches . Sometimes a sandwich is just the thing you want don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RockViolin Posted April 4, 2011 Members Share Posted April 4, 2011 Well yes, that was part of the point. In that case it follows that the author's argument being discussed here is already on shaky ground. I don't think he can say with absolute authority that the music of the 20th Century compares badly with that of the 19th because they are "apples and oranges" at best - perhaps a better analogy would be Fillet Mignon and Sandwiches . Sometimes a sandwich is just the thing you want don't you think? No one can say with absolute authority. Right. That's why the word consensus keeps cropping up. That's the best we can hope for. Filet Mignon to sandwiches? Not really a better analogy. The scale isn't great enough. Anyway, at least some 'art' is required to prepare the former. Tediously, I go forth. Now that's not to say that there isn't some art to making a truly awesome sandwich. But the difference by degree, common criteria to one, and then the other, outline rather well-for some of us....what has a valid claim to the word Art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Surrealistic Posted April 4, 2011 Members Share Posted April 4, 2011 Well I guess my point is that making a sandwich doesn't have the ambition of preparing a gourmet dinner. Popular music of the last century didn't fail to reach the heights of the 19th - it was climbing another (albeit smaller) mountain ... god, I have to stop with these tenuous analagies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flatfinger Posted April 4, 2011 Members Share Posted April 4, 2011 I have no problem with bologna sandwiches or three chord songs ; That said , I don't want to be stuck with that diet at all times. I would also point out that many a "pop" song( there's some specificity for ya !) has elements that can be traced back to systems developed by the masters centuries ago ; the performances style may be different , but the building blocks are omni present . Now excuse me whilst I go have a sandwich and cheese (WITH A HAM !!!!!!) and listen to "POP" songs with 5 - 7 chords, bridges and modulation and non-linear melody . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flatfinger Posted April 4, 2011 Members Share Posted April 4, 2011 Classical music has not enriched my life, but rock has. I thought you liked RUSh ?? Never heard of ELO ?? Never rocked out to YES's "roundabout "? How about all those songs with some strings or a string pad ??? Want you're own custom version of the Beatles " Elanor Rigby" without the string quartet ?? It's there , it just doesn't make a point of forcing you to acknowledge it's prescence... you have to look for it to recognize it ..... Have I mixed enough metaphors and cluttered up my rhetoric sufficiently ????? Rock on !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flatfinger Posted April 4, 2011 Members Share Posted April 4, 2011 This.... Rhea_Carmi_Untitled_box-spring_rag_and_paint_82x62_2009.jpg Isn't any improvment from This... Newman-Onement_1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fatusstratus Posted April 4, 2011 Members Share Posted April 4, 2011 I've made filet mignon sandwiches -- it sounds flip, but I think it does bring up that the analogies are tenuous (and they are delicious) Those two food concepts aren't mutually exclusive - one's a cut the other is a particular preparation. So it's more like apples and pies kind of comparison.I have misgivings about the whole analogy from a culinary standpoint, but I think to go into it would just drag the issue off topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted April 4, 2011 Members Share Posted April 4, 2011 For most people in regards to their preferences in music, reading about the longest impressionist, shortest neo-klassical composer, the renaissance composer with the biggest hydrocephalus, and all other world record e.g. about tiniest microtonalism, shoe size of Antonio da Correggio, Iteration, Claudio Monteverdi's drinking problem, Vivaldo, Dodecaphonics, Stockhausen, Futurism, Serialism, Brutism, Aleatoric, Ars antiqa, Baroque, Neodadaism, Micropolyphony, Klassik, Algorithmic composition, Expressionism, Musique spectrale, Style Pluralism, Atonality, longest Gender in a Gamelan orchestra on venus, New Simplicity, widest tone cluster, and good old fashioned army marching music composed by John Cage, in the Guiness Book of World Records. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted April 4, 2011 Moderators Share Posted April 4, 2011 who's drinking problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Surrealistic Posted April 4, 2011 Members Share Posted April 4, 2011 I really think we need to go back to the food analogies. Beethoven is Filet Mignon in a Marsala and cream sauce with sauteed potatoes and lightly buttered asparagus. On that I think we all agree. The Beatles/Cole Porter/Irving Berlin/the Gershwins might only be a sandwich but it's a quality sandwich with very fine ingredients. Meatloaf is .. um ... meatloaf (badly prepared at that) and Bread presumably are just bread. What about Smashing Pumpkins? Or Cream? Or The Red Hot Chilli Peppers? Hmmm - I'm thinking we're onto something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flatfinger Posted April 4, 2011 Members Share Posted April 4, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted April 4, 2011 Members Share Posted April 4, 2011 who's drinking problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members richardmac Posted April 4, 2011 Members Share Posted April 4, 2011 There will ALWAYS be people who want to tell you what the best "art" is. They're welcome to tell you, and you're welcome to ignore them. I didn't get the Rush thing. I mean, yes, one could argue that progressive rock has some elements of "classical" music, but so does everything I can think of, including Bugs Bunny cartoons. Kill the wabbit, kill the WABBIT... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted April 4, 2011 Members Share Posted April 4, 2011 So basically it's over? I should give up? I have no future? Start a tree service? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted April 4, 2011 Moderators Share Posted April 4, 2011 ars gratia artis...et criticos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted April 5, 2011 Members Share Posted April 5, 2011 So basically it's over? I should give up? I have no future? Start a tree service? No no, you are unique. You must just drink more that it comes out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cliftonb Posted April 5, 2011 Members Share Posted April 5, 2011 Alright, I've calmed down a enough to say a couple things. Personally, the idea of always holding up European classical music as some high standard for Divine human artistic output doesn't set well with me - but that's a whole 'nother discussion. "Where's the next 5th Symphony?" That's a horribly wrong-headed question. Those held up as geniuses used the tools of the time. If Bach or Beethoven were around now, they'd probably use turntables, computers, samplers, modular synths, or would make up their own sonic devices. In any case, genius surely doesn't abide by anyone's rules or time table, nor will it appear in a form that's fully understood or appreciated at the time. A genius in the modern world would probably say "F@ck Beethoven" and charge that his music and the entire edifice that placed him in his place of prominence is outmoded; then would proceed to create new musical paradigm that's probably only been hinted at earlier in history. To be clear, yes I enjoy classical music. A lot. But I'm more of a Messiean/Lutoslawski/Bartok/Dutilleux guy than a Bach/Beethoven/Mozart guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted April 5, 2011 Members Share Posted April 5, 2011 Just because Beethoven's 5th is the only symphony you heard, doesn't meant there are not 50.000 more symphonies to listen to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flatfinger Posted April 5, 2011 Members Share Posted April 5, 2011 progressive rock has some elements of "classical" music, but so does everything I can think of So everything you can think of has some elements of it , but it did not enrich your life ....... The members YES once confessed that they basically used a formula of completely avoiding the blues ( Which turned out to be a good decision for them , because it set them apart from allot of what was going on around them ...) It didn't stop them from Rockin on tunes Like "roundabout " which is pretty much a case study for prog rock/classical influence ... So anyhow , that was the point Richard , The systems that were pioneered during that time (the last 300 years or so ) have enriched our (musicians and listeners) lives... Whether we are really aware of it or not ... doesn't change it being so . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flatfinger Posted April 5, 2011 Members Share Posted April 5, 2011 Personally, the idea of always holding up European classical music as some high standard for Divine human artistic output doesn't set well with me I wouldn't ever presume to tell you what music to hold sacred . I would only ask that credit be given where credit is due; We basically have been left/given the blueprints and tools to build a a space shuttle if we apply ourselves . I just think that we should try to make more than a soap box derby car sometimes!!! Thank the classical masters that came before for the system we have at our fingertips !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flatfinger Posted April 5, 2011 Members Share Posted April 5, 2011 You must just drink more ..... Sage Advice !! Oh show me the way to the next whiskey bar; oh , don't ask why ! oh , don't ask why ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fatusstratus Posted April 5, 2011 Members Share Posted April 5, 2011 I really think we need to go back to the food analogies. Beethoven is Filet Mignon in a Marsala and cream sauce with sauteed potatoes and lightly buttered asparagus. On that I think we all agree. The Beatles/Cole Porter/Irving Berlin/the Gershwins might only be a sandwich but it's a quality sandwich with very fine ingredients. I wouldn't call it "only a sandwich", thing about the filet (And the asparagus, and the baby spuds and the half pound of butter) is it's a heavy duty ingredient, the actual prep isn't all that crazy. Sandwiches can take a lot of work - it's got cooked AND baked parts (those are two different disciplines). The "just a" is sort of prejudice. A lot of times it comes down to ingredient cost...its' not "just a filet mignon" because of the cut...but like we were talking, you can make a filet mignon sandwich or a Culatello sandwich and most people probably aren't going to say "just a sammy" about that one, then again the pople in the front of the house are about paprika on the plate and ordering things overdone....but the shift meal can be a thing of beauty if you play your cards right...high/low cuisine at the same time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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