An interview with Uli Behringer...

[percyexpat]

yeah behringer are scum but why do people single them out? what companies are better than them? i cant think of many, if any.

[DontLetMeDrown]

 

Originally posted by wbcsound ...What is your vision of utopia and what are you doing to make that vision a reality for the average person...

 

 

Excellent question. I can already hear the typical evasive BS answer these guys are reknown for: "Our company takes pride in providing a product that enriches the lives of our comsumers blah bleh blah yada yada..."

 

F*ck off, Mr CEO!

[twostone]

Here's an offer Mr. Behringer bring your products to our slave clamps, we call them prisons here, you'll get get tax breaks and same labor prices plus you can stamp them made in the USA and save a bundle on import taxes. Plus you'll even have a QC called The Warden just a reminder that alot of our American made products do come from prison. I know my brother use to make soap in the prison he was at and after the 3 yrs he spend there he made 200$ for all he hard labor.

[gtrbass]

It is worthwhile to consider that Chinese culture views the issues we are discussing here differently.

 

Cheap Labor - China is a massive country trying to catch up after decades of isolationism. There is tremendous poverty which has existed for hundreds of years if not millenia. Chinese families see the value in "sacrifice" in order for the family to get ahead in the long run. One child will go to work in the factory and send money home, while the other will get a good education, escalating to a loftier position in the emerging middle class. What we view as intolerable working conditions are seen as a fact of life to many.

 

Intellectual Property - As China was (and in many ways still is) a communist society, the very concept of the "ownership of ideas" is countercultural, and in some ways viewed as unethical and immoral. In their eyes, to claim ownership is selfish, evil and against the greater good as a whole. The words copyright and patent don't register in their minds the way they do to us.

 

It will be interesting to watch as developing nations like China and India progress. Will it have a devastating affect on Western economies? To a point it is a great equalizer. It would cause them great harm if the West is not economically capable of consuming their goods at a rate that feeds their growth.

 

Ultimately we will meet in the middle. The labor force in the developing nations will eventually demand and get better working conditions. We will demand and get safeguards guaranteeing R&D investments. Economic globalization in the past 60 years has been about exploitation, and counterexploitation. The real level playing field may result in a resurgence of industrial localization, with mfg jobs coming back to America. It will happen faster than people think.

 

When the whole world is completely interdependent for its economic survival, then maybe wars will become an unacceptable method of conflict resolution. The belligerent nations would face significant global pressure to come to the table as the resulting disruption to international trade would not be tolerated. Who knows?

 

The next developing market will be Africa. 20 years from now we will all be bitching about Kenyan labor undercutting Vitenamese made products.

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Originally posted by gtrbass Cheap Labor - Chinese families see the value in "sacrifice" in order for the family to get ahead in the long run. One child will go to work in the factory and send money home, while the other will get a good education, escalating to a loftier position in the emerging middle class. What we view as intolerable working conditions are seen as a fact of life to many.

 

 

It's some other issues that people have a problem with.

 

The Chinese government uses slave labor camps (prisons) to produce work, and reap the rewards.

 

The Chinese government does not allow unions (India has unions). Therefore, attempts to "cause trouble" by improving work conditions can be met with a boot atop your Adam's Apple, you "disappearing", or your family being threatened.

 

The Chinese government does not allow free speech.

 

Many elementary schools are forced to have the students make things by the government, or are so incredibly underfunded that they take on jobs from corporations. The students are supposed to be learning, not trying to make things that they make no money from. Do you remember the elementary school that blew up because the students were making fireworks to earn money for school supplies? This was only a few years ago.

 

Child labor, unhygienic working conditions, large rooms with no windows, 14-hour work days, and other things are viewed as "intolerable" to people living in China, not just here in the U.S. However, when you're either forced to do it by gunpoint or are chained to your table, or have been forced to take these {censored}ty jobs because the government has just moved your entire village of 30,000 people to make room for a power generator or because they want to clean up their town to make it look good for the 2008 Olympics - for many of these reasons, it's just completely wrong.

 

One of my relatives was forced by gunpoint to teach his elementary school students propaganda during the so-called Cultural Revolution. Those who refused to preach the Communist Party rhetoric mysteriously disappeared or were simply killed in front of the students.

 

My uncle said that at one point, the main street in his village turned into a river of blood. He added, "I'm not being poetic. It literally was running with blood."

 

Yeah, sure, families know "sacrifice", but I think that this is going a little far for the "good of the whole" or even their family, don't you think?

[gtrbass]

Wow...

 

One of my co-workers is from Shanghai, and she tells a different tale of life in China. (Both of her parents are physicians) Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't dare to suggest that what you're stating isn't accurate. Is it that different regions of China have different standards? I get the impression that Shanghai is a fairly modern city, with somewhat comparable standards of living to other Asian cities.

 

The ugly not so secret is that many imported goods are made by labor which is grossly underpaid, and in deplorable conditions. It blows me away that electronic components would be made in this type of environment because of the lack of quality that it would produce. Is the QA person chained to the table too??

 

I don't buy any behringer products on principle. I take it as a tremendous insult if a salesperson even suggests one of their products to me. Now I have yet another reason to be absolutely disgusted with Behringer.

 

Do you use products made by slave labor?

"No Comment"

What????? Are you f*cking kidding me?????

[UstadKhanAli]

Originally posted by gtrbass Wow... One of my co-workers is from Shanghai, and she tells a different tale of life in China. (Both of her parents are physicians) Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't dare to suggest that what you're stating isn't accurate. Is it that different regions of China have different standards? I get the impression that Shanghai is a fairly modern city, with somewhat comparable standards of living to other Asian cities. Do you use products made by slave labor? "No Comment" What????? Are you f*cking kidding me?????

 

Yeah, isn't that an incredible response from a Behringer rep?

 

Anyway, yes, there's a lot of variance depending on where you are. My relative's experience was in a place very near Toishan. To give you an idea, Toishan is approximately five hours' drive from Guanzhou, a very large city in Guangdong Province (South China). Different regions get it worse. In particular, the Muslim regions of China, Yunnan Province, and Tibet get the harshest treatment meted out to them from the Chinese government. That's a LOT of people!!!!

 

Shanghai is a very very modern city. Due in part to the colonization of the Portuguese way back, it's been historically one of the more Westernized cities. Now, it's obviously much more blatantly Asian, and is a very sophisticated, modern city in many many respects.

 

Check out this George Jetson-like skyline:

 

 

 

[joel Oporto]

Man, so much rant about slave labor this and slave labor that!!!!

 

I don't particularly like behringer products but to say behringer employs slave labor to produce their products is just so far out!!

 

For a "first world" country some of you guys are pretty stoopid or don't know anything about the manufacturing process.

 

What is slave labor by the way? Picking cotton in the fields?

Hammering nails on the railroad tracks? Sweeping? cutting wood?

Operating 10K dollar sensitive assembly equipment and tools?

 

First of all from an engineering stand point.

 

What part or component of any behringer product do you believe can be worked on by unskilled slave labor?

 

Can the injection-molded plastic parts be worked on by unskilled slave labor?

 

Can resistors,capacitors,transistors, chips be made by unskilled slave labor?

 

Can the machine-stamped metal carraiges/frames and parts be worked on by unskilled slave labor?

 

Can unskilled slave labor assemble sensitive electronic equipment?

 

If you check those products you'll notice that those solders were done by machines. Those metal products were machine stamped. Those plastic parts were injection-molded or casted.

Is that slave labor technical workers?

 

If those unskilled slave labor can produce these products I wonder what their skilled laborers can produce!!!

 

If it were the furniture, handicrafts or the clothing industry I could believe there to be slave labor, but electronics? c'mon guys you got to be kidding!!!

 

The manufacturing process is all about sub-contractors.

 

Sub-con for the resistors, transistors, components etc.

Sub-con for the metal parts, for the painting, perhaps even subcontracting for the assembly.

 

To give you an example of how things are done, A friend of mine here in Cebu city stopped producing plastic products (buckets, pans, pitchers etc.) from his plant in the mid 90s. The reason he gave me was that plastics plants were sprouting out of garages in Taiwan. Taiwan is one of the world leaders in the petrochemical industry from which plastic raw material is sourced. In taiwan these small garage-operated plants were doing what the manufacturing industry called "just in time production". You send them your order, (paid or dwnpayment depending on your status as client), they start up their machines and in a few hours, they deliver your plastic products. Its almost like you would order a special cake from the pastry shop, only your orders are in the hundreds or thousands.

 

Thanks to GATT and anti protection laws, my friend couldn't compete with those garage factories because they are just too cheap even when its imported from taiwan.

 

Now you put that process to work in mainland china only different products like transistors, resistors, capacitors, etc. with the same "just in time" production. They hardly ever stock up on their products except enough raw materials for their orders. Now you put that process across the whole subcontracting line and you get a very streamlined and versatile manufacturing chain especially when most of all those subcontractors can be found in the same general area of Guangdong province, all in a day's delivery distance and delivering to other companies that use similar components. For example, there are companies that only produce the filaments or the piezo part which is used by so many microphone manufacturers there. I'm pretty sure some other sub-contractor is manufacturing those behringer microphones under their specifications, like say ningbo alctron which is were nady and shinybox get their microphones. It's all quite logical from a business standpoint.

 

Now about the only parts that I believe can be worked on by slave labor would be the cartons and packaging, and maybe some box materials of speakers.

 

But then because of the sub-contracting process, those subcontractors would also be supplying companies like apple, IBM, AOC, cisco etc. who have needs for those packaging also and have factories there in china. So why aren't they being singled out?

 

Now from an economic standpoint.

 

At what point in wages would you consider slave labor?

 

What is the minimum wage rate in the U.S. today?

At say $4 an hour that amounts to $32 for an 8 hour day or $768 for a 24-day month.

 

In contrast, the minimum wage in the Phil. is about 6,000 pesos a month which is some $118 U.S. per month. China is even cheaper than the philippines. Now let me tell you straight that 6T pesos a month is in no way slave labor here and a lot of people woul be glad and lucky to be able to work those wages.

Timex, whose Cebu plant is the most efficent timex plant in the world, pays about 8T pesos a month for their "operators" manning their sensitive equipment in 8 hr shifts. Thats about $160 U.S. per month. They are one of the highest paying companies located in the export processing zone in Cebu. These operators are not even high school graduates, but some high school education is required.

 

I once did a costing for the tube casing for a gefell 300 design pencil mic, I chose a brass 3/4" schedule 40 tubing and with the machining cost and finishing, it amounted to about 100 pesos which is about less than 2 dollars. So the rest of the $1,150 price tag of a microtech gefell 300 is cost of electronics and profit. Of course if you take in consideration the wages in germany, that would not be as much.

 

That is the economic reality of production in third world countries. You take into consideration the standard wages of the area. Why do you think your american companies set up shop there.

 

How would you like to work as a top-notch musical arranger and get paid a standard of 100 dollars per song or be a top-notch session recording guitarist and get paid 20 dollars per song you lay tracks on? That is more or less how the going rates are here.

A client of mine from nashville asked me if I wanted to work there because he said the work I was doing was not compensated by the $60 he was paying me to arrange and record his songs. In another instance, I got paid $400 each for the 5 movies I scored for a major local film company.

Production costs of a major label album here would range from 100k to 250k pesos or 2k to 4.5K in dollars. How much do you think they spent for Mariah Carey's last album?

 

Just imagine how much a factory worker here is getting and how much a factory worker in china is getting given the standard wage rates.

 

Before you comment about labor practices in these parts of the world, I suggest you try working here and find out how much they can actually pay for these local jobs that are not for expatriates.

 

Nurses here are paid about 10 to 15k pesos a month, thats about 100 to 150 pounds in U.K.!!

 

And its still cheaper in China.

 

So if you want to bash behringer, bash them rightly for their copy practices or cheap quality, but don't bash them for labor practices because otherwise you are just flaunting the high service wages that you are luckily enjoying in your country which will eventually be too high for your companies to maintain a hefty profit margin with the given market competition.

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Joel, for a "first world" dude, you seem pretty stoopid about what the word "slave" means.

 

Slave: someone held in servitude. You know, against free will? Prison workers? Someone chained to their post and forced to work? People who are chattel? That kind of slave?

 

I think it's safe to say that most of us have a problem with that. I certainly do.

 

And if you think it doesn't exist,

think again.

 

If you think it doesn't exist, ask my relatives in China.

 

Oh, wait....you can't.

[gtrbass]

joel Oporto,

 

I'll take your advice. I'll completely ignore the overwhelming evidence that the company routinely reverse engineer's other vendors product to make knockoffs. I'll ignore the apparent evidence that the company utilizes "questionable" labor practices, whether directly or through "subcontractors".

 

I think Behringer makes and sells {censored}TY products. It is IMO {censored} because 99.99% of it sounds bad. It is IMO {censored} because it has a high failure rate. If a salesman at a music store even suggests one of their products to me I take it as an insult, and as proof that they are an idiot with no clue.

 

U.S. minimum wage is set at $5.15/hr, but many states and regions actually have higher than federal minimum legislated, like California, which is currently $6.75/hr.

 

BTW - Do you work for Behringer? My guess is that you do.

 

If Ken says that slavery conditions still exist, well China is still on the human rights violations list for a reason.

[UstadKhanAli]

Joel wrote:

What is slave labor by the way? Picking cotton in the fields?

Hammering nails on the railroad tracks? Sweeping? cutting wood?

Operating 10K dollar sensitive assembly equipment and tools?

 

slavery n. , pl. -ies . The state of one bound in servitude as the property of a slaveholder or household.

 

Slavery Slav"er*y, n.; pl. Slaveries. [see 2d Slave.]

1. The condition of a slave; the state of entire subjection of one person to the will of another.

 

 

Joel also writes: At what point in wages would you consider slave labor?

 

When their wages are a Big Fat Zero.

 

~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

Slavery in China (iAbolish.com article)

 

Since 1955, when China began its Reeducation (or Reform) Through Labor program, more than 3.5 million Chinese citizens have been punished by means of forced labor - now as many as 200,000 detainees each year. While most are imprisoned for such crimes as drug-use and prostitution, a growing number of political and religious dissidents are detained. The Falun Gong, a spiritual group banned by the government, claims that over 5,000 of its members have been imprisoned in Reeducation Through Labor since 1999.

 

Due in large part to its huge population, China is now a major player in the global market. But the country's economy, caught somewhere between communism and capitalism, remains under-developed. As part of an effort to become a true economic powerhouse, the government - already a rampant abuser of human rights - continues to rely on forced labor.

[joel Oporto]

Ken says ->Joel, for a "first world" dude, you seem pretty stoopid about what the word "slave" means.

Slave: someone held in servitude. You

know, against free will? Prison

workers? Someone chained to their post

and forced to work? People who are

chattel? That kind of slave?

 

joel seyz -> Sorry, I am from the "third World" of the Philippines, the cottonpickers and railroaders are a reference to the black and chinese slaves of the United states.

 

Help me find slaves slave,> operating $10k sensitive assembly equipment please.

 

I come from the nation that practically perfected and made a fad

of People Power that the ball rolling to help break down the reppression of the berlin wall, Communist russia and the rest of communist eastern europe but failed miserably in Tiananmen square.

 

I know about slavery, we were enslaved and oppressed by Spain for 400 years, america for 25, by the Marcos Dictatorship for 20 yrs. I've had friends disappear without a trace for no reason at all other than maybe they looked like someone subversive, snatched in public view, presumably "salvaged" with no body parts or news

to be found or identified.

 

ken says ->I think it's safe to say

that most of us have a problem with

that. I certainly do.

 

And if you think it doesn't exist,

think again.

 

joel seyz-> I don't doubt at all that there is slave labor in china. Just not in the "export processing zone" in the guangdong province area of shenzen where most of these electronic

products and components are manufactured or in the electronics

industry for that matter.

 

 

Ken seyz-> If you think it doesn't

 

exist, ask my relatives in China.

 

Oh, wait....you can't.>

 

Joel seyz-> Have your relatives worked as slave laborers for behringer? Is that why you could say for sure that behringer employs slave labor?

 

Ken, I am truly sorry that you

had/have relatives that were oppressed

in mainland china at various times in

their history. I can understand that

you have a problem with that.

 

But then you are chinese aren't you?

and from the mainland too?

 

Does that mean I should bash you also for being chinese from the mainland and those chinese employ slave labor?

 

I think definitely not!!!

 

 

Its an attitude somewhat like:

 

"Hey the muslims crashed down the twin towers!! Lets kill all the muslims because they are fanatic zealots and murderers!!"

 

gtrbass seyz-> I'll take your advice. I'll completely ignore the

overwhelming evidence that the company routinely reverse engineer's other vendors product to make knockoffs. I'll ignore the apparent evidence that the company utilizes "questionable"

labor practices, whether directly or through "subcontractors".

I think Behringer makes and sells {censored}TY products. It is IMO {censored}

because 99.99% of it sounds bad. It is IMO {censored} because it has a high failure rate. If a salesman at a music store even suggests one of their products to me I take it as an insult, and as

proof that they are an idiot with no clue.

 

joel seyz -> right! read my post properly again. If you want to bash them, bash them properly for their copying practices and poor product quality but not for crazy ideas of slave labor.

And yes that salesman is probably an idiot and insulted you to sell you cheapie stuff!

 

gtrbass says -> U.S. minimum wage is set at $5.15/hr, but many states and regions actually have higher than federal minimum legislated, like California, which is currently $6.75/hr.

 

Joel sez -> wow $6.75/hr! lucky for you, unlucky for us who work 28-day months for a measly $118. But that is minimum wage and by no means, slave labor. That is why you can't imagine other than slave labor someone who earns 3 dollars a day!

 

The reason why amazon.com is so much more succesful than barnes & Noble is that they don't pay state sales tax because they don't have physical stores in states unlike barnes & Noble.

It is the nature of capitalism to search for the best profit margin at the lowest possible price point to do the most volume and sales. In correlation, you would want to put up a franchise store in a state where there is none or the least sales state tax and still get the right clientele.

Now put that in a global perspective and in the manufacturing sector, then those capitalist companies will undoubtedly go to those areas in the world that will give them cheaper costs meaning labor etc. So at what point would you consider it

unfair labor practices and at what economic reference? your minimum wage or their minimum wage?

 

gtrbass says -> BTW - Do you work for Behringer? My guess is that you do.

 

 

joel seyz-> Sorry to disappoint you dude but I don't work for anybody except myself my wife and my daughter, and the only behringer stuff I have is a lousy compressor that I bought for

the heck of it.

 

The quick lesson in economics and manufacturing is to show you that there is no need whatsoever to resort to slave labor to be able to churn out products as cheap as behringer.

 

Heck I can produce the $1,200 microtec gefell or the $2,500 neumann U87 for less than $200 here in Cebu given the right infrastructure for sourcing of materials and volume production, and absolutely no need for slave labor. Given the nature of the manufacturing of electronic products, you can hardly employ slave labor and you don't need to anyway. I have filipino friends who

work as supervisors in shenzen for plants like lexmark, etc. and all I hear from them is how dedicated, hardworking and enterprising those people are, not to say a lot of them are thankful to be in those jobs. There is even a robust market economy around those areas where you can like go to a corner stall in a mall, and have a nokia-clone phone assembled in

front of you after you choose the parts you want installed, because all the parts are manufactured and available there! Granted that is an actual copyright infringement, but if

you see all components (unpatented) of a U87 being sold in a store and they offered to assemble it for you for a measely sum, would you decline to have one yourself if not to sell to others?

 

I don't have a problem with you guys lashing out on behringer or for that matter china manufactured products. But then I want you to think about this:

 

Apple computers are assembled by Asus in china. IBM laptops are owned and manufactured by the chinese(lenova). Nokia, motorola, sony-erikson cellfones and/or parts are

manufactured in china. Canon, Lexmark, AOC, logitech, sony, panasonic, jvc, LG, samsung and a host of companies all have products or components assemble or manufactured in china.

 

If you want to bash china manufacturing because somewhere in

china slave labor still exists, then don't be biased and hypocritical

towards the cheap products because you presume they employ slave labor, do so similarly to all those other products manufactured in china. Get yourself into a protectionist-mode

of trading and "don't buy chinese, buy american" or wherever.

 

Or you can absolutely 100% show or identify which product is a result of slave labor and or that behringer employs slave labor, and then please post it, then we can HAVE something constructive to bash.

 

The nature of the industry does not lend itself to slave labor, only to very cheap labor. So at what point does very cheap labor become unfair labor practice? your wages or their wages?

 

I guess you guys don't believe in the maxim of innocent until proven guilty, but instead follow the maxim of guilty until proven innocent!

 

 

A spade is a spade...... and a leaf,

 

but not all leaves are spades.

[skunky_funk]

Originally posted by joel Oporto Ken says ->Joel, for a "first world" dude, you seem pretty stoopid about what the word "slave" means. Slave: someone held in servitude. You know, against free will? Prison workers? Someone chained to their post and forced to work? People who are chattel? That kind of slave? joel seyz -> Sorry, I am from the "third World" of the Philippines, the cottonpickers and railroaders are a reference to the black and chinese slaves of the United states. Help me find slaves slave,> operating $10k sensitive assembly equipment please. I come from the nation that practically perfected and made a fad of People Power that the ball rolling to help break down the reppression of the berlin wall, Communist russia and the rest of communist eastern europe but failed miserably in Tiananmen square. I know about slavery, we were enslaved and oppressed by Spain for 400 years, america for 25, by the Marcos Dictatorship for 20 yrs. I've had friends disappear without a trace for no reason at all other than maybe they looked like someone subversive, snatched in public view, presumably "salvaged" with no body parts or news to be found or identified. ken says ->I think it's safe to say that most of us have a problem with that. I certainly do. And if you think it doesn't exist, think again. joel seyz-> I don't doubt at all that there is slave labor in china. Just not in the "export processing zone" in the guangdong province area of shenzen where most of these electronic products and components are manufactured or in the electronics industry for that matter. Ken seyz-> If you think it doesn't exist, ask my relatives in China. Oh, wait....you can't.> Joel seyz-> Have your relatives worked as slave laborers for behringer? Is that why you could say for sure that behringer employs slave labor? Ken, I am truly sorry that you had/have relatives that were oppressed in mainland china at various times in their history. I can understand that you have a problem with that. But then you are chinese aren't you? and from the mainland too? Does that mean I should bash you also for being chinese from the mainland and those chinese employ slave labor? I think definitely not!!! Its an attitude somewhat like: "Hey the muslims crashed down the twin towers!! Lets kill all the muslims because they are fanatic zealots and murderers!!" gtrbass seyz-> I'll take your advice. I'll completely ignore the overwhelming evidence that the company routinely reverse engineer's other vendors product to make knockoffs. I'll ignore the apparent evidence that the company utilizes "questionable" labor practices, whether directly or through "subcontractors". I think Behringer makes and sells SHITTY products. It is IMO SHIT because 99.99% of it sounds bad. It is IMO SHIT because it has a high failure rate. If a salesman at a music store even suggests one of their products to me I take it as an insult, and as proof that they are an idiot with no clue. joel seyz -> right! read my post properly again. If you want to bash them, bash them properly for their copying practices and poor product quality but not for crazy ideas of slave labor. And yes that salesman is probably an idiot and insulted you to sell you cheapie stuff! gtrbass says -> U.S. minimum wage is set at $5.15/hr, but many states and regions actually have higher than federal minimum legislated, like California, which is currently $6.75/hr. Joel sez -> wow $6.75/hr! lucky for you, unlucky for us who work 28-day months for a measly $118. But that is minimum wage and by no means, slave labor. That is why you can't imagine other than slave labor someone who earns 3 dollars a day! The reason why amazon.com is so much more succesful than barnes & Noble is that they don't pay state sales tax because they don't have physical stores in states unlike barnes & Noble. It is the nature of capitalism to search for the best profit margin at the lowest possible price point to do the most volume and sales. In correlation, you would want to put up a franchise store in a state where there is none or the least sales state tax and still get the right clientele. Now put that in a global perspective and in the manufacturing sector, then those capitalist companies will undoubtedly go to those areas in the world that will give them cheaper costs meaning labor etc. So at what point would you consider it unfair labor practices and at what economic reference? your minimum wage or their minimum wage? gtrbass says -> BTW - Do you work for Behringer? My guess is that you do. joel seyz-> Sorry to disappoint you dude but I don't work for anybody except myself my wife and my daughter, and the only behringer stuff I have is a lousy compressor that I bought for the heck of it. The quick lesson in economics and manufacturing is to show you that there is no need whatsoever to resort to slave labor to be able to churn out products as cheap as behringer. Heck I can produce the $1,200 microtec gefell or the $2,500 neumann U87 for less than $200 here in Cebu given the right infrastructure for sourcing of materials and volume production, and absolutely no need for slave labor. Given the nature of the manufacturing of electronic products, you can hardly employ slave labor and you don't need to anyway. I have filipino friends who work as supervisors in shenzen for plants like lexmark, etc. and all I hear from them is how dedicated, hardworking and enterprising those people are, not to say a lot of them are thankful to be in those jobs. There is even a robust market economy around those areas where you can like go to a corner stall in a mall, and have a nokia-clone phone assembled in front of you after you choose the parts you want installed, because all the parts are manufactured and available there! Granted that is an actual copyright infringement, but if you see all components (unpatented) of a U87 being sold in a store and they offered to assemble it for you for a measely sum, would you decline to have one yourself if not to sell to others? I don't have a problem with you guys lashing out on behringer or for that matter china manufactured products. But then I want you to think about this: Apple computers are assembled by Asus in china. IBM laptops are owned and manufactured by the chinese(lenova). Nokia, motorola, sony-erikson cellfones and/or parts are manufactured in china. Canon, Lexmark, AOC, logitech, sony, panasonic, jvc, LG, samsung and a host of companies all have products or components assemble or manufactured in china. If you want to bash china manufacturing because somewhere in china slave labor still exists, then don't be biased and hypocritical towards the cheap products because you presume they employ slave labor, do so similarly to all those other products manufactured in china. Get yourself into a protectionist-mode of trading and "don't buy chinese, buy american" or wherever. Or you can absolutely 100% show or identify which product is a result of slave labor and or that behringer employs slave labor, and then please post it, then we can HAVE something constructive to bash. The nature of the industry does not lend itself to slave labor, only to very cheap labor. So at what point does very cheap labor become unfair labor practice? your wages or their wages? I guess you guys don't believe in the maxim of innocent until proven guilty, but instead follow the maxim of guilty until proven innocent! A spade is a spade...... and a leaf, but not all leaves are spades.

 

MABUHAY KA PARE KO!!!

[UstadKhanAli]

"Guilty before proven innocent", Joel?

 

:bor:

 

Behringer has already been proven guilty several times in a court of law. How much more do you want before it's "okay to bash"?

 

Over and out.

[joel Oporto]

gulity for using slave labor? or guilty for copyright infringements?

 

please read carefully!!

[UstadKhanAli]

"Guilty before proven innocent":

-if you are referring to patent infringement, they have been found guilty in a court of law

- if you are referring to whether they use slave labor or not, then you need to read a helluva lot more carefully, since I've already written that they answered "No comment" and that this is therefore inconclusive (although admittedly fishy).

 

Who can tell what the hell you are talking about since you have so many nonsequiturs and can't follow a conversation? And don't even seem to know that you can't?

 

Here, let's get back to when you came in:

 

Gtrbass and I were talking about slave labor in China generally (not discussing Behringer, in other words).

 

You come in and and insult us: "For a "first world" country some of you guys are pretty stoopid or don't know anything about the manufacturing process.

 

You further confuse low wages with slave labor.

 

We're not talking about manufacturing at all, but that doesn't matter to you - you insult away.

 

I tell you that we are discussing slave labor.

 

Incredibly, you come back with: "Does that mean I should bash you also for being chinese from the mainland and those chinese employ slave labor?"

 

This makes absolutely no sense because none of us were saying anything derogatory about the Chinese in general or that all Chinese people should be castigated for this. In light of this, your comment makes absolutely no sense. Really, most of your comments/rants have been nonsequiturs and make little sense in context. Despite this, you have the nerve to insult us by calling us stupid. Amazing, Joel, you're truly a piece of work.

[joel Oporto]

originally written by UstadKhanAli

Are any of them slave labor camps?

 

What are the work conditions like there?

 

How is your QC done?

 

How could you have possibly thought that you would be able to design something that looked exactly like an Aphex on the inside and outside and get away with it?

 

What designs are on your xerox machine now?>

 

Well who's not reading correctly??? behringer and slave labor?

 

and

 

and yes I guess a no comment for you is admissible in court as an admission of guilt not of ignorance. Therefore you conclude that they do!

 

And yes the conversation was about behringer AND slave labor.

 

Who's not reading properly?

 

And yes because you don't live in a third world country its easy to rant about their working conditions

[UstadKhanAli]

I give up. You know what? You're right. I'm stupid, I live in a first-world country so I have no idea about anything, and you can clearly follow a conversation. You win. With logic like yours, you should run, not walk, to get a job at the nearest law firm. I submit before your greater powers of reasoning.

[joel Oporto]

Ken, read this post carefully!!!!

 

 

sorry ken if I seemed to have insulted you, that is certainly not my intention.

 

But if you know the manufacturing process, like I do, you'll realize that the electronic products are certainly not very condusive for slave labor and my previous posts explain that contention hence are not exactly off topic and"nonsequitor".

 

let me start it this way:

 

where02190 said-

 

GZsound said-

 

And of course all those folks with such high "moral" standards now seem to have no problem buying a .......HONDA.>

still refering to copyright infringements.

 

Next is the first reference to Slave labor:

 

UstadKhanAli said ->

B]ARE ANY OF THEM SLAVE LABOR CAMPS?

 

What are the work conditions like there?

 

How is your QC done?

 

How could you have possibly thought that you would be able to design something that looked exactly like an Aphex on the inside and outside and get away with it?

 

What designs are on your xerox machine now?>

 

.....After which I would immediately clean up any "messes" he made, improve the conditions of the labor (if not outright move it altogether) if appropriate, and make any other humanitarian, legal, and ethical improvements that needed improving.>

 

quite commendable!!!

 

Zen Fly said-

Tascam

Mackie

 

are two I can think of. I think Vox is even doing it.

 

joel sez-> this is a clear referal of zen fly's incredulity about singled-out behringer-slave labor/unfair labor, that there are other manufacturers in china too! A lot of my succedding posts are a referral to this statement.

 

next is another referal to behringer+slave labor

 

UstadKhanAli said-

but if you did NOT use slave labor, why would you answer this way?

 

joel sez-. Very fishy indeed, and the last statement indicates your own suspicion that they do because they answer that way!!!

 

UstadKhanAli said-

What do you do about it? I don't know. It's impossible to find out about everything, where it's made, etc., so I always cut people slack. Including myself. Who knows how much crap I own that was made in China or elsewhere. I'm a hypocrite, just like most others. An ugly thing that I almost wish I weren't aware of!! >

 

joel sez - very true and insightful!

 

wbcsound said-

 

joel sez- wbcsound had a lot of very good points which I also reflected later, however he was corrected about the copyright infringement thingy.

 

UstadKhanAli said-

<....and yes behringer has been successfully sued for patent infringement and numerous other times the same thing.>

 

joel sez- there's the correction... and wbcsound aknowledged.

 

UstadKhanAli said-

With India and China developing at a dizzying pace and becoming oil-hungry, the world is going to be changing quite a bit in the near future.>

 

joel sez - very true and some of my succeeding post is in referral to this.

 

and joel starts his first post in the thread

 

joel said-

a mere statement of a fact that copyrignt laws came to existence in the past 2 centiries but people have been copying each other since the dawn of man. Given that, how easy do you think it is for human nature to change? is that non-sequitor?

 

If you read that post properly, you will see that there nothing in it that's non-sequitor but okay maybe i'll have to explain it.

 

Technology transfer is a curious thing.

The military just steal what they could whenever.

 

Don't want other people to copy your technology? Follow the lead of the military and dont sell them to your "enemies" and build them yourself.

Exploitatation? why are all these american, japanese, korean companies manufacturing their products in china exploiting the cheap labor?

Want to protect your products? Build them yourself and don't sell them to other countries. See how much you can sell. >

 

joel sez - > this is all about copying and its economic-political relations and the capitalist character of finding the least cost.

Non-sequitor? Its an explaination why american/japanese/korean companies are in china.

 

 

joel sez-> this is all about the china manufacturing thingy that america has become inseparable from china manufacturing.

non-sequitor? These are all connected to previous posts if you read them properly.

 

If you are an artisan say a shoe maker, and you take in an apprentice or worker to help you make more shoes so you can make more money, then don't expect that your apprentice or worker will not go out someday and make his own shoes and have more sales than you. It doesn't matter if your shoe is better than his, but if more people can afford his shoe and are satisfied with them, chances are more people will buy them.

 

Tables have been turning, The chinese already own IBM laptops.

What happened between the japanese and americans has already happened between the chinese and the japanese.

 

The corporate bright boys who first thought of the idea of having their stuff built in china or elsewhere are the ones to blame for all the mess.

 

That's where technology transfer really happened and people are crying foul with the consequences.>

 

joel sez-> This thread clearly went the way of a

behringer-bashing thread which branched out to

china-manufacturing and slave-labor/unfair labor.

 

Since I then found that underlying sentiment of connecting behringer+unfair/slave labor, ergo the post about other companies not singled out, and if there's someone to blame, its the bright boys who decided to to transfer manufacturing over there.

 

gtrbass said->

 

Cheap Labor - China is a massive country trying to catch up after decades of isolationism.........

The next developing market will be Africa. 20 years from now we will all be bitching about Kenyan labor undercutting Vitenamese made products.>

 

 

 

Joel sez -. very insightful and very plausible

 

UstadKhanAli then said->

The Chinese government uses slave labor camps (prisons) to produce work, and reap the rewards.

 

The Chinese government does not allow unions (India has unions). Therefore, attempts to "cause trouble" by improving work conditions can be met with a boot atop your Adam's Apple, you "disappearing", or your family being threatened.....>

 

joel sez -> A very beautiful and personal post by UstadKhanAli

[joel Oporto]

continued....

Gtrbass said ->

<....the ugly not so secret is that many imported goods are made by labor which grossly underpaid and in deplorable conditions. it blows me away electronic components would be this type of environment because the lack quality produce. qa person chained to table too>

 

I don't buy any behringer products on principle. I take it as a tremendous insult if a salesperson even suggests one of their products to me. Now I have yet another reason to be absolutely disgusted with Behringer.>

 

joel sez-> a lot of my succeeding post elaborated on this and I will point it out later.

 

Now here's where it starts to get messy:

 

joel said->

I don't particularly like behringer products but to say behringer employs slave labor to produce their products is just so far out!!

 

For a "first world" country some of you guys are pretty stoopid or don't know anything about the manufacturing process.>

 

joel sez-> obviously the trivialized and comical spelling of stoopid did not express to you its farcical nature but was instead taken personally as an insult by some. Sorry but that was not the intention, and might have been a wee bit too strong.

BUT ! It is obvious to me that the people previously posting in this thread had very little or no experience with the manufacturing process, and hence I had the urge to expound on it.

 

Hammering nails on the railroad tracks? Sweeping? cutting wood?

Operating 10K dollar sensitive assembly equipment and tools?>

 

joel sez-> As I explained in a later post this is in referral to american slaves and also the fact that you cannot entrust expensive assembly equipment to slave labor or people who are forced against their will to handle those expensive equipment!!!! Anybody who knows about manufacturing electronics will tell you that! but moronic marketing people like say, that behringer sales rep could probably be ignorant about that.

 

The rest of that post is all about showing the unlikelihood of an electronics company employing slave labor to produce their products.

 

 

This is definitely a exposition of what gtrbass said->

 

joel sez-> There is a huge possibility of slave labor/sweat shops working on products like, shoes, clothing, bags, furniture, food products, shovels, hammers/masonry tools, steel works, fireworks, and those industries that require and use a lot of menial un-skilled labor.

Ken, you've seen sweat shops in china, did you see them work on electronic equipment? The component rejection would be quite large, that is why electronics are manufactured in controlled temperatures/environments.

 

That then aside, all that is left to argue about is wage rate and unfair labor wages.!!

 

joel said->

 

At what point in wages would you consider slave labor?

 

What is the minimum wage rate in the U.S. today?

At say $4 an hour that amounts to $32 for an 8 hour day or $768 for a 24-day month.......>

 

joel sez-> This is all about differences of wages of "third" world and "first" world countries and the thin line between what one considers unfair labor practice and what others would consider differently. Non-Sequitor?

 

 

Ken and gtrbass went ballistic and sarcastic

 

UstadKhanAli said->

 

GtrBass said->

I'll take your advice. I'll completely ignore the overwhelming evidence that the company routinely reverse engineer's other vendors product to make knockoffs. I'll ignore the apparent evidence that the company utilizes "questionable" labor practices, whether directly or through "subcontractors".....

BTW - Do you work for Behringer? My guess is that you do.

 

If Ken says that slavery conditions still exist, well China is still on the human rights violations list for a reason. >

 

UstadKhanAli said->

 

When their wages are a Big Fat Zero.>

 

joel sez-> Your replies got heated up probably because of the mention of "first" world and "stoopid" which I explained earlier.

 

Since I never mentioned slave labor in my first post you obviously thought I was ignorant about slavery, that I thought there wasn't any in china, despite the fact that I wrote

 

in the previous post,

 

So in the next post I explained where I came from and why I would know about slavery and oppression aka the Marcos administration and the almost 30s depression-type era of the post Aquino assasination where the peso currency jumped from 7 pesos to a dollar and went to 20 pesos to a dollar in a couple of months.

 

but then an opportunity presented itself!!!

 

Ken seyz-> If you think it doesn't

 

exist, ask my relatives in China.

 

Oh, wait....you can't.>

 

and Joel said-> Have your relatives worked as slave laborers for behringer? Is that why you could say for sure that behringer employs slave labor?

 

because we are definitely talking about slave labor in the electronics industry and Behringer for that matter!!! Non-sequitor?

 

then joel said->

 

had/have relatives that were oppressed

in mainland china at various times in

their history. I can understand that

you have a problem with that.

 

But then you are chinese aren't you?

and from the mainland too?

 

Does that mean I should bash you also for being chinese from the mainland and those chinese employ slave labor?

 

I think definitely not!!!>

 

Where did that come from? Non-sequitor?

 

Okay so here's the reasoning

 

1.

 

You Ken, as others, as I do, believe and know of slave labor in china or at the very least, unfair labor. You even have your relatives vouch on that.

Albeit in my opinion occuring only in other industries that require menial labor and not in the electronics industry.

 

2.

 

In the electronics industry, Behringers are incredibly cheap and because of that and company rep comments, are suspect, and I use the word suspect, to having slave labor as...

 

UstadKhanAli said->

 

Are any of them slave labor camps?.......

 

 

even Twostone goes farther to say->

 

 

3.

 

So aren't we applying presumptions that because there is slave labor in china, then there is slave labor in all industries including the electronics industry?

 

 

since you first brought up the idea.

 

Are any of them slave labor camps?.......

 

I used you as an analogy that If you were chinese and the chinese use slave labor, then you must also use slave labor.

 

You do realize how absurb that is right?

 

and that's why I wrote

 

 

Ken you're okay, a little exasperated I should say, and I am really sorry for the reference of "first world" and stoopid, but if we bash behringer, lest's bash them right, with their copy infringements and poor build and sound quality.

 

 

 

peace???

[SKEETERtunes]

I don't care about any of that crap. I buy what works right. When does morales have anything to do with business, particularly in america, where the idea is to get the most labor from someone for the least money? And to give the least service for the biggest buck?

I'll stick with my overseas products. My Japanese and Swedish cars run fine while my tools sit rusting. My Korean and Indonesian guitars make domestic guitars look like ukeleles. And, the Berhinger gear I have works great! Mr Behringer is just beating us at our own game.

We claim to like competition, until of course, the competition kicks our asses. Then we don't think so highly of it.

[JBL4645]

Well I

[Kid Klash]

I just want to say that this is one of the most interesting and eye-opening threads I've read in a long time. Fascinating. truely a worthwhile read.

 

As a side note, I read in a local newspaper a couple days ago about some slave labor being used at a Chinese brick factory southwest of Beijing. The brick factory managers paid the equivalent of $65USD per person. Bricks are pretty low tech, so I don't doubt the slave labor connection. Higher tech products would (I would guess) require a more educated and willing workforce, but that's only speculation coming from a white guy born and living in the U.S.

[philbo]

 

I personally get a kick out of the "pick and choose" bashing. Reminds me a lot of a time when another company started selling products in America. It was labeled cheap crap. They were blamed for ripping off our designs and selling us junk cheaper then we could build it. They were accused of trying to put American companies out of business. Their products were pure junk. Anybody who bought their cheap knock off junk was laughed at. And of course all those folks with such high "moral" standards now seem to have no problem buying a .......HONDA.

 

 

 

Move to the early '70s - - A company putting out overly feature-laden, very unreliable amps, PAs and mixers for 1/3 to 1/2 the price everyone else did. Built everything in Mississippi. Over the years, market forces steered them toward both innovation and quality, and caused them to eventually thrive....

 

PEAVEY

[GZsound]

 

Move to the early '70s - - A company putting out overly feature-laden, very unreliable amps, PAs and mixers for 1/3 to 1/2 the price everyone else did. Built everything in Mississippi. Over the years, market forces steered them toward both innovation and quality, and caused them to eventually thrive.... PEAVEY

 

 

I said that. Peavey was "value engineering" their stuff from the beginning. We called them the "one percent" gear because it seemed everything ran at one percent THD..and worked as advertised.

 

To us poor musicians they were the greatest thing ever.