How much does location matter?

[richardmac]

Read this quote from a music website today. This was advice for a band just starting out:

 

"I think I would try as much as possible to get in front of as many people as possible for as little cost as possible and then slowly start working my way to the point where I get my fans to start wanting to pay to see me. But, really, getting in touch with those early adopters is important. There is no blanket answer to that, because it depends on what your scene is. If you’re a rock band, it’s going to be very different from if you’re a Hip Hop artist or an indie rock artist. Everyone is going to go about it a different way and have different tools at their disposal. It also depends on where you’re from. If you’re somewhere further away from a major city, you’re going to have a lot harder time. Gigging around a small town is probably not going to get you the traction you need. I think more than anything, get yourself into a place where more of the influential tastemakers are. That’s probably at one of the top 12-15 markets in the country."

 

What do you guys think? True or false? Or "It depends?" It seems to me that going to a top music city (NY, LA, Nashville, etc) means that you have a better shot at getting noticed by folks who matter but the competition goes through the roof. Is it better to be a big fish in a little pond, or a little fish in a big pond?

[WaterMoc]

Well I'm in a little pond, and it always did amuse me when someone here made a vanity album, got local press and purported to be on the hunt for stardom, without leaving home. Staying home might be more comfortable but it just seems too lazy or timid for someone who wants to succeed. That said, don't move to the big city unless you have contacts there who are willing to help.

 

I know two guys who got their songs recorded but only after they had moved to Nashville and looked up another songwriter from these parts.

[sventvkg]

Work up your skills in your home market. Gotta work out from there. IF you're a band you can tour from anywhere but I will say the South East is a great are for bands because there is a good touring circuit. If I were a country artist I would work it up at home, develop my skills touring a bit etc and then move to Nashville. I'm a songwriter/producer/artist and NAshville is the best place in the world for my kind of thing. If you want to do the Katy Perry Thing, LA is nice, maybe NYC as well..I think it depends what kind of artist you are. I wouldn't hang around Fargo for instance, once I got to the point where I was developed. I would take it on the road...

[BlueStrat]

The guys in the blues scene making the best money and growing the best fan bases are the guys playing around, not necessarily in, metro areas. I played around the northwest.Places like Kalispell, Helena and Missoula, Montana; Spokane, Wenatchee, Ellensburg, Bellingham and Vancouver Washington; Oregon City, Bend, Hood River, La Grande, Oregon; etc with lots of places in between. Some of these little towns would pay us 1200 to 1500 for a one nighter because they don't get decent bands all that often. On the the hand, places like Portland and Seattle have good bands that never want to leave town, so you're playing for a small guarantee vs the door, and if you don't have a following in town, you're out of luck. You can't get a following in the city unless you play there a lot, and you can't play there a lot unless you can afford to eat it for awhile. But the bottom line, I was able to create a regional following and a good reputation by playing small towns and then getting the same people to come see us at festivals and concerts. And really, bands from Portland and Seattle have to get out of town if they're going to get a regional following anyway, so in that regard, I have an equal shot with them.

 

Lots of young guys from small towns think they need to move to LA or Nashville or wherever to be near the scene. I disagree. Places like that are where you go when you have some experience under your belt, something to sell, and have gotten a solid start to your career. Guys like Sean moving to Nashville is one thing, because he's got a ton of experience, a ton of talent and a boatload of songs. It's another thing for a kid with not much experience, no connections, no resume and not a ferociously monstrous talent on an instrument to do so. I can't tell you the number of guys I've seen come back here from Nashville or LA, myself included.

 

If I was going to be a modern rock, jazz or hip hop act, I'd more likely move to a large city. But for blues, country, neo-folk/Americana/bluegrass singer/songwriter stuff, not so much.

[sventvkg]

For Songwriting and singer songwriter there is no better place than Nashville. SO many of them live because of the community and business. Also, it's the center of touring in the US and you can reach the 2/3 of the US in a long day's drive in a bus

 

Like I said I agree with Pat on touring around and that you don't need to be in a musical center. It's more about WANTING to be there.

[richardmac]

For Songwriting and singer songwriter there is no better place than Nashville. SO many of them live because of the community and business. Also, it's the center of touring in the US and you can reach the 2/3 of the US in a long day's drive in a bus Like I said I agree with Pat on touring around and that you don't need to be in a musical center. It's more about WANTING to be there.

 

I would think that the competition to be heard would be so great in Nashville that getting noticed would be like finding a rubber duck in the Atlantic Ocean. Is the point in Nashville to get heard by people who place songs with big artists? Or do people try to get a following there? Or do people try to get some sort of a label deal there? I'm envisioning 1,500 singer/songwriters all playing the same open mics, small coffee shops, etc, all trying for the same thing. What's the scene really like? All I know about it is that there's tons of extremely talented people there.

[sventvkg]

 

I would think that the competition to be heard would be so great in Nashville that getting noticed would be like finding a rubber duck in the Atlantic Ocean. Is the point in Nashville to get heard by people who place songs with big artists? Or do people try to get a following there? Or do people try to get some sort of a label deal there? I'm envisioning 1,500 singer/songwriters all playing the same open mics, small coffee shops, etc, all trying for the same thing. What's the scene really like? All I know about it is that there's tons of extremely talented people there.

 

 

Well if you look at it like competition. Most here look at it as a community and while there is a friendly competition, there's a lot of support for other songwriters, even up and coming amateurs who are still developing. As far as getting a following it's an industry town and it's tough to get people out to shows in town but if you're really good, word will get around. You'l want to get out of town to play more though. Living in a town like this where there are a lot of great writers will inspire you and make you want to be better and really if you're serious help you as a writer. There are a lot of writers and performers here but it's the same or maybe a slight bit better ration than I have always seen everywhere else. About 90% on the bad or not developed side and 10% that have it. Flat out. So if you have it here, chances are you have it. If you write the kind of material other people want to record, you can get some things happening, studio work, side work, touring work, base out of here for your own touring and just about anything else associated with being right in the middle of it here.

 

I would encourage all songwriters to come here and spend time to absorb the scene to understand it. Nothing exists like it anywhere else. The vibe etc. If you're good, you'll know it fast when you're hear and you'll also figure out your faults quick and if you're focused you'll work harder than ever before. I came here a bunch of times for anywhere form a few weeks to a week each time before I moved here. Got to know the scene, played songwriters nights, open mics, met people, sat in etc. I HAD to move here after I absorbed it.

[BlueStrat]

 

I would think that the competition to be heard would be so great in Nashville that getting noticed would be like finding a rubber duck in the Atlantic Ocean.

 

More like finding a rubber duck in an ocean of rubber ducks!

 

Still, it's a great place to find out if your stuff is good, and since success in the biz still depends a great deal on who you know, after you've put in your time and paid dues honing your craft it is much more likely that a producer for Brad Paisley or Carrie Underwood will hear one of your songs in Nashville than in Sandy, Utah.

 

As an interesting aside, Myles Kennedy, lead singer for Alter Bridge (formerly Creed), and also the guy who played the fired lead singer in "Rock Star" grew up and played in bands here in Spokane. His latest project will be singing with Slash in Velvet Revolver. http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1639788/slash-promises-guns-n-roses-velvet-revolver-solo-songs-on-tour.jhtml

 

What's cool for Myles is that here, we was a killer R&B singer, but he can sing anything.

[sventvkg]

 

More like finding a rubber duck in an ocean of rubber ducks! Still, it's a great place to find out if your stuff is good, and since success in the biz still depends a great deal on who you know, after you've put in your time and paid dues honing your craft it is much more likely that a producer for Brad Paisley or Carrie Underwood will hear one of your songs in Nashville than in Sandy, Utah.

 

 

I totally agree with that. There are opportunities that i'm currently working on that just don't exist anywhere else but again, you have to be top of you game. Even if you aren't, I can't think of a better place to come to develop, and I've been everywhere in this country:)

 

 

EDIT: Maybe this deserves a new post...below.

[Dancebass]

I think it's huge important. Especially in how it relates to what kind of music you're playing. You can play music anywhere I suppose, but that doesn't mean you're going to get anywhere with it, if that's your goal.

 

Different cities have their own personalities when it comes to music. For example, Nashville as Sven mentioned above is great for many things. Metal has NEVER been one of them. Years ago when I was playing metal we always skipped Nashville. Just no point in it for us. Even though they do have a great rock music scene. It's not all country or singer songwriter stuff. Metal however, is just not a good fit up there. I saw an article in the Nashville Scene on-line recently and it was basically introducing an Atlanta based metal band to Nashville. I was cracking up becuase that band is actually f*cking HUGE!!! I thought it was hilarious that they were getting "introductory" type of reference in the local music rag. It just made me realize that things haven't changed in that department.

 

These things are hard to nail down but they are real. Back before Myspace collapsed my band got more hits from London than any other place. Even our home town! We were constantly hearing "hey man, move over here to London, you'd b freakin huge!". Sounds good to me, but just not in the cards I suppose. Thems the breaks.

[sventvkg]

I have to add that I lived in Alaska for about 9 years..I was burnt out on playing covers in my band, wanted to do something more couldn't figure a way out of the paper bag yet so I chucked everything and moved there. Ended up playing solo and briefly with my friends band as lead guitarist, enjoyed myself thoroughly, make a lot of money gigging and regained my soul! When I was ready I got a gig in Europe and starting playing all over EU for 2 years until I built up to finally being ready to give the songwriting thing a REAL shot. So I moved to LA for 6 months to check out the scene there. I had already showcased the Nashville New Music Conference in 2002, spend 3 months there getting to know the scene, writing, singing on demo's, etc. Plus I had toured the East Coast, and south a lot so I knew the deal. We decided that Nashville was a better fit and moved there......Anyway the point is, that I have so many talented friends playing that small scene in Anchorage that it would blow your mind. As good as anyone anywhere but there is nowhere to go from there and all the really talented and driven ones, have to move out..So yes, I think Location IS Important, even today.

 

Today it's not about selling music. That paradigm is over. It's about selling yourself as an artist. If you can get real fans of YOU...What are you are about, fans will support you by buying merch, coming to your shows, paying for VIP stuff on your website, Live streaming events, etc....You people have to understand that giving away or streaming your music is just advertising now at this point, so you can gain REAL fans that will come out and support you. Today increasingly, it's more about you as a brand or a whole, than your music..I don't {censored}ing like it any more than you all do, but I understand and accept it and I will make it work.

[Barber Surgeon]

Going along with what Dancebass brought up about metal...

 

What is ideal for a band that knows it has little mainstream appeal? My thoughts have always been "biggest market possible because that will provide the biggest pool of people who could possibly enjoy this kind of music."

 

Unless you already know about a particular scene existing somewhere that makes and enjoys similar music, I can't really think of anything else.

[Cliftonb]

I'm over here in South Carolina, and it's extremely difficult to get anywhere with the music that I do. If you don't play country or gospel, or in a classic rock cover band you're fighting an uphill battle. My music, while generally popularly accessible, doesn't fit into any of the major genres. Even outside of SC, the stuff that I make is so far from what's being made now that I can't seriously consider music a real career option. Which is fine, I'll continue doing it for as long as I live even if I never see a penny from it.

[Dan Acheron]

I have to add that I lived in Alaska for about 9 years..I was burnt out on playing covers in my band, wanted to do something more couldn't figure a way out of the paper bag yet so I chucked everything and moved there. Ended up playing solo and briefly with my friends band as lead guitarist, enjoyed myself thoroughly, make a lot of money gigging and regained my soul! When I was ready I got a gig in Europe and starting playing all over EU for 2 years until I built up to finally being ready to give the songwriting thing a REAL shot. So I moved to LA for 6 months to check out the scene there. I had already showcased the Nashville New Music Conference in 2002, spend 3 months there getting to know the scene, writing, singing on demo's, etc. Plus I had toured the East Coast, and south a lot so I knew the deal. We decided that Nashville was a better fit and moved there......Anyway the point is, that I have so many talented friends playing that small scene in Anchorage that it would blow your mind. As good as anyone anywhere but there is nowhere to go from there and all the really talented and driven ones, have to move out..So yes, I think Location IS Important, even today. Today it's not about selling music. That paradigm is over. It's about selling yourself as an artist. If you can get real fans of YOU...What are you are about, fans will support you by buying merch, coming to your shows, paying for VIP stuff on your website, Live streaming events, etc....You people have to understand that giving away or streaming your music is just advertising now at this point, so you can gain REAL fans that will come out and support you. Today increasingly, it's more about you as a brand or a whole, than your music..I don't {censored}ing like it any more than you all do, but I understand and accept it and I will make it work.

This is a great point that you have to sell yourself and get fans to be a fan of you! I have been thinking of moving to either Nashville or LA in the next few years. Since you have lived in both cities do you think you can give some pros and cons for living in either one regarding the music scene. I have heard good things about both cities but I am not sure which one would be best for me.

[sventvkg]

Dan, if you're a singer songwriter, Americana, Roots, Rock or Country Nashville is the place. If you are pop/hip hop mainstream ala Katy Perry, Gaga, or Black Eyed Pea's, go to LA.

 

I like the weather in LA and that's about it. It's so insanely expensive, self obsessed culture, and really just fake.

 

I like everything else in Nashville and it costs easily 50% or less than LA to live here. The sense of community, the songwriting community, the sheer amount of live music playing and gigs available on a nightly basis, the centralized location which makes weekend trips for outta town gigs or touring readily accessible. I wouldn't wait a few years to move here though. Come ASAP. Come for a trip and check it out.

[mikedavid00]

 

I like the weather in LA and that's about it. It's so insanely expensive, self obsessed culture, and really just fake.

 

 

How do you find NY?

[weareasmallaxe]

it goes like this location, location, location.......and maybe talent

[Dancebass]

 

How do you find NY?

 

 

I lived there for a while. It's almost twice as expensive as L.A. with {censored} for weather in comparison.

[Dan Acheron]

 

Dan, if you're a singer songwriter, Americana, Roots, Rock or Country Nashville is the place. If you are pop/hip hop mainstream ala Katy Perry, Gaga, or Black Eyed Pea's, go to LA. I like the weather in LA and that's about it. It's so insanely expensive, self obsessed culture, and really just fake. I like everything else in Nashville and it costs easily 50% or less than LA to live here. The sense of community, the songwriting community, the sheer amount of live music playing and gigs available on a nightly basis, the centralized location which makes weekend trips for outta town gigs or touring readily accessible. I wouldn't wait a few years to move here though. Come ASAP. Come for a trip and check it out.

 

Thanks for the advice! I got one more semester of school after this one and plan on moving! Nashville definitely sounds like an excellent place! I cant wait to check Nashville out!

[sventvkg]

NYC is crazy expensive. I don't understand how anyone can afford it. Also the hip Williamsburg Brooklyn is not the trendy place for young musicians over there and I hear it ain't cheap either.

[Matximus]

It' s a silly question. You have to go to the right place to get traction in every highly competitive, prestigious career field - fashion, film, athletics and music, and even in the less prestigious but still competitive fields - journalism, publishing, finance....

[Matximus]

And I live in NYC, in Queens. It is the place to go if you're serious about breaking into the arts. Everything is here, which can be daunting but gives you more chances than anywhere else I can think of to make your own luck.

 

And I wouldn't dissuade anyone from moving here because of the expense. I would dissuade you if you are the kid of person that never likes to leave the house, or is afraid to cut a line sometimes. Or can't live with all the things people in the suburbs take for granted - like closets, taking baths in nice big tubs, Target & Wal-Mart and giant grocery superstores, seeing your parents and siblings on a daily or weekly basis, multiple-bathroom residences, living spaces built before 1950, movie tickets under $13; Bud light under $7 at the bar; freedom from sudden unexplainable wafts of {censored}-stink when walking down the street; rare encounters schizophrenic beggers & bible thumpers, among other inconveniences.

 

but you get used to all that.

 

But it can be very, very expensive to live here. But it's a massive place and the transit system is pretty good - you can find as cheap a place to live as you want if you're willing to put up with some inconveniences.

 

And you don't drive in New York - so take whatever you pay for gas, insurance, car payments right now and forget all that. That's how regular people can still afford to live here: We don't shell $300 to $500 a month or whatever it is people pay elsewhere in car expenses. We spend $100 on a subway card, as many trips as you want for 30 days.

 

And the music scene, like everything in New York, is crazy competitive. I mean - everything is competitive here. It's not just competitive to get a show here: trying to get a ticket to see a show here is competitive. Any kind of show that people might be interested in. Going for a walk in Central Park on a nice day is competitive - it's {censored}ing nuts. Anything worth doing here has 1,000 people battling to do it every hour, which can be grating after a while.

 

But if you're sharp-elbowed & talented & hardworking you can carve out a niche in whatever you want to do. Most of the young people that live here are smart and educated, and from other places - so going out is always good stories and good conversations with people that have different backgrounds but tend to share the same left-leaning point of view. That's one of the nicest things about living here - everybody is a transplant, which creates an interesting sense of camaraderie. Everybody knows it's just be easier and maybe even better to just {censored}ing move back home where they can afford to live in a nice big place and spend more time with the people that love them the most.

 

You know. The more I think about it - I actually {censored}ing hate living in NYC and wish I could leave. But you kinda get stuck in a place after a while, you know. If you don't leave home you get stuck. You get stuck away from home if you decide to leave.... god damn New York..

[sventvkg]

 

And I live in NYC, in Queens. It is the place to go if you're serious about breaking into the arts. Everything is here, which can be daunting but gives you more chances than anywhere else I can think of to make your own luck. And I wouldn't dissuade anyone from moving here because of the expense. I would dissuade you if you are the kid of person that never likes to leave the house, or is afraid to cut a line sometimes. Or can't live with all the things people in the suburbs take for granted - like closets, taking baths in nice big tubs, Target & Wal-Mart and giant grocery superstores, seeing your parents and siblings on a daily or weekly basis, multiple-bathroom residences, living spaces built before 1950, movie tickets under $13; Bud light under $7 at the bar; freedom from sudden unexplainable wafts of {censored}-stink when walking down the street; rare encounters schizophrenic beggers & bible thumpers, among other inconveniences. but you get used to all that. But it can be very, very expensive to live here. But it's a massive place and the transit system is pretty good - you can find as cheap a place to live as you want if you're willing to put up with some inconveniences. And you don't drive in New York - so take whatever you pay for gas, insurance, car payments right now and forget all that. That's how regular people can still afford to live here: We don't shell $300 to $500 a month or whatever it is people pay elsewhere in car expenses. We spend $100 on a subway card, as many trips as you want for 30 days. And the music scene, like everything in New York, is crazy competitive. I mean - everything is competitive here. It's not just competitive to get a show here: trying to get a ticket to see a show here is competitive. Any kind of show that people might be interested in. Going for a walk in Central Park on a nice day is competitive - it's {censored}ing nuts. Anything worth doing here has 1,000 people battling to do it every hour, which can be grating after a while. But if you're sharp-elbowed & talented & hardworking you can carve out a niche in whatever you want to do. Most of the young people that live here are smart and educated, and from other places - so going out is always good stories and good conversations with people that have different backgrounds but tend to share the same left-leaning point of view. That's one of the nicest things about living here - everybody is a transplant, which creates an interesting sense of camaraderie. Everybody knows it's just be easier and maybe even better to just {censored}ing move back home where they can afford to live in a nice big place and spend more time with the people that love them the most. You know. The more I think about it - I actually {censored}ing hate living in NYC and wish I could leave. But you kinda get stuck in a place after a while, you know. If you don't leave home you get stuck. You get stuck away from home if you decide to leave.... god damn New York..

 

 

Well I'm from about 15 miles outside NYC and I was living in NJ until I moved to Nash and I can tell you I would NEVER want to live there! It's the epitome of cramped and expensive. And that whole you don't drive in New York thing is funny because it makes you end up someone who NEVER LEAVES! Institutionalized to the place. {censored} that.. It ain't the industry town for a musician that it used to be. Well if you're Gaga maybe but not for indie musicians and singer songwriters. Wanna get lost in 9 million people? {censored} that.

[daddymack]

You know. The more I think about it - I actually {censored}ing hate living in NYC and wish I could leave. But you kinda get stuck in a place after a while, you know. If you don't leave home you get stuck. You get stuck away from home if you decide to leave.... god damn New York..

Having grown up in NYC, and having owned both a car, and a motorcycle there...yeah, the secret is you CAN'T drive in the city, but if you ever want to go anywhere else (but why would you ? ) you need a vehicle.

 

I have looked at moving out of LA numerous times, but the only places I have found had even more serious drawbacks...so here I stay...the weather...part of it, teh scene, part of it, the laid back under-pinnings, part of it...

BUT...I see musicians come and go here, and moving here to 'make it', as I have said all too many times, is a bad idea.

[niceguy]

 

NYC is crazy expensive. I don't understand how anyone can afford it. Also the hip Williamsburg Brooklyn is not the trendy place for young musicians over there and I hear it ain't cheap either.

 

 

I live right in the heart of Williamsburg. Been here 3 years, work a day job, front an original rock band.

 

There are countless bands here. But, the bands which gain a following are the ones who gain a "weirdness" following. People want to say, "Oh, I'm really into (insert trendy {censored}ty band)," so that way they feel superior.

 

It's a culture of "bad is good." Mediocrity is genius, atonal is beautiful, etc. Songwriting and musicianship is NOT welcome here. In fact, that's a surefire way to be hated and rejected in Williamsburg. But the artsy girl with a Nintendo Gameboy on stage with the angry skinny kid with a beard and a Telecaster playing noise into a crappy fuzz? That's pure trendsetting.

 

Sadly, I'm not exaggerating. If you want to play into the "weirdness for the sake of weird" schtick, then Williamsburg is good. You'll develop a fleeting little fanbase, and they'll abandon you when the next flavor of the week comes along.

 

In my 3 years of living here, I have never ONCE been impressed by a local band. I'd stare and wonder, "WTF is the big deal?" And it was painfully obvious that no one else in the crowd was REALLY enjoying the music; rather, they were enjoying the fact that "Ohhh! Look! I'm doing something that Pitchfork would approve of! Am I cool yet?! Please tell me I'm cool!"