Is what I have "Pro" enough for Pro quality not Demo quality - upgrades needed?

[ConcertPhotoZin]

this a question I'm asking for my uncle and his pal, who are 'firing up' their studio again after not working on a project for almost 3 years now.

 

we will be recording distorted rock - punk, emo, alt/pop, hardcore, hard rock, thrash, etc. and will be tracking gtr, drums, bass and keys live and then vocals and overdubs separately.

 

the bands will be tracked at various venues - both halls and small clubs. i'll be doing that.

 

they then will come into the rest of the gang's small home studio, control room to cut overdubs. the control room is only 15 x10 x 8 to 10 feet high.

 

trying to support the scene here - western PA - without going bankrupt.

 

This is what we got so far:

 

Sonar 5 on an Acer Aspire Pentium M laptop 2.0 ghz

Mackie Onyx 1620

:

- Tube Tech Mec 1A Preamp, Compressor, EQ strip

- DACS Clarity Micamp Preamp [ fantastic preamp, but think it might be overkill for rock, ie. more suited for regarding classical, jazz, acoustic ]

- Peavey VMP-1 Preamp

- Palmer PGA-04 Guitar Cab Sim

- Waves Gold. Others to be determined. [ Recommendations? ]

 

and for mics:

AT4050, ADK 51 [think of adding Sure SM7b. they've been told to stay away from LDC's for a small room]

SM57 [think of adding Beyer m88]

plan on just recording direct into Onyx using an EBS compression pedal or through the Tube Tech Mec or Peavey VMP as a direct box

Audix D6, Audio technica ATM25

SM-57 [wonder if they are better alternatives that are easier to get a killer snare sound]

Matched pair of ADK51's through the DACs or Peavey [wonder if they will do?]

Track through the Tube Tech or Peavey, whichever is not being used.

 

is this enough to reasonably get "pro" results? recommendations for gear upgrades or how to record?

[blue2blue]

Looks like a good start.

 

Good tools are important, to be sure -- but knowing what to do with your tools is paramount.

 

A great recordist with so-so tools will almost always beat a so-so recordist with great tools.

[ConcertPhotoZin]

 

Originally posted by blue2blue Looks like a good start. Good tools are important, to be sure -- but knowing what to do with your tools is paramount. A great recordist with so-so tools will almost always beat a so-so recordist with great tools.

 

 

you're totally right. we just want to get the most out of our budget so that our tools are not the limiting factor and making it as easy as possible based on the budget.

[blue2blue]

It's a great time to be doing it.

 

My recommendation is to sit tight on your pocketbook, as much as possible.

 

If you can get a bit of experience under your belt before you start making major purchasing decisions, you'll better know what you want and cut wasted expenses.

 

 

Almost everyone building everything from a personal recording rig on up has one or two purchases they wish they hadn't made, or hadn't made when they did. Not necessarily bad gear --hell, maybe GREAT gear. But if you have a single diamond on your necklace and a bunch of funky cut glass... er, that analogy may have gone out with the original glam era...

 

 

Anyhow, take it slow, take it easy and focus on learning. Because THAT is the single best-returning investment you can make.

 

 

PS... on the plugs -- a great resource is www.KVRaudio.com -- lots of info, lots of reviews -- and LOTs of links to free plugs and samples, as well as to shareware, demos, and so on.

[UstadKhanAli]

I also think it's a really good start. The equipment's good enough that you have no excuses if the recording turns out lousy!

 

I didn't know that Peavey made a VMP-1. I have a VMP-2 and really like it.

[ConcertPhotoZin]

Originally posted by UstadKhanAli I also think it's a really good start. The equipment's good enough that you have no excuses if the recording turns out lousy! I didn't know that Peavey made a VMP-1. I have a VMP-2 and really like it.

 

oops. it is a 2!

 

what tubes do you use in yours and what uses [guitar cab, overheads, etc.] and mics do you like with it for rock?

 

and yes, we only want outselves to blame

[UstadKhanAli]

Originally posted by ConcertPhotoZin oops. it is a 2! what tubes do you use in yours and what uses [guitar cab, overheads, etc.] and mics do you like with it for rock? and yes, we only want outselves to blame

 

I use whatever stock tubes came in the thing. I've been talking about swapping out the tubes for years and then never do it. I've even posted this in the forum, and have the answers saved on my computer.

 

I use the VMP-2 for electric guitars. I usually use a 57, a 421, or an AT4060 (421 up close, the AT4060 farther away). I have also been using them for overheads, but I got a Neve Portico mic preamp unit and have been using that for overheads instead, with really great results.

 

What do you usually use your VMP-2 for?

[ConcertPhotoZin]

 

Originally posted by UstadKhanAli I use whatever stock tubes came in the thing. I've been talking about swapping out the tubes for years and then never do it. I've even posted this in the forum, and have the answers saved on my computer. I use the VMP-2 for electric guitars. I usually use a 57, a 421, or an AT4060 (421 up close, the AT4060 farther away). I have also been using them for overheads, but I got a Neve Portico mic preamp unit and have been using that for overheads instead, with really great results. What do you usually use your VMP-2 for?

 

 

Haven't yet use it. It's the other guys and it's been dormant.

 

Trying to figure out which - bass, gtr, kick, snare, overheads - get the peavey, the DACS and the Tube Tech during tracking.

[where02190]

If you possess the talent and learn the skills required to be a great engineer, you can make a great recording with two tin cans and some string. If you don't, (and remember talent is something you're born with, either you got it or your ain't, it doesn't come in a plugin) then the finest gear in the world won't produce anything but second rate crap.

 

You've got decent gear, now educate yourself on it's inner workings, and take it beyond it's limits. The best tools you have are on placed one either side of your head, and one big one inside it.

[jt93]

for plugins, i highly recommend t-racks. damn good sounding and works easily.

[UstadKhanAli]

Originally posted by ConcertPhotoZin Haven't yet use it. It's the other guys and it's been dormant. Trying to figure out which - bass, gtr, kick, snare, overheads - get the peavey, the DACS and the Tube Tech during tracking.

 

Oh, you know, I forgot to mention bass. It sounds good on bass.

 

It's not super open sounding. I'm not saying it's bad or it's muffled. It's not. But it's not this pristine "straight-wire with gain" kind of thing that people describe with other mic preamps. I really like it on bass and guitar cabinets. It's a nice preamp. I have RNPs and a Neve Portico and I still use the VMP-2 and have no intentions of selling it (sorry, Offramp! ).

[ConcertPhotoZin]

 

Originally posted by jt93 for plugins, i highly recommend t-racks. damn good sounding and works easily.

 

 

Yes, I've heard some remarkable mixes done with it - of course, they were tracked excellently to begin with.

 

I know a lot of the hi end pros frown on it, but I've heard with my own ears what can be done as long as its not garbage in. For rock styles at least, it's right there.

[jt93]

yea, most of what im mastering atm is thrash, or punk. so for that full max level saturation, t-racks is it.

 

the seperate components are also very very nice. i prefer the eq in it to the ones in nuendo and the ones in the golden audio series from germany.

[ConcertPhotoZin]

Originally posted by UstadKhanAli and I still use the VMP-2 and have no intentions of selling it (sorry, Offramp! ).

 

no, it's definitely not that. adds a warm but dark sound to vocals, as i remember, from listening to it a long time ago.

 

the dacs micamp is the straight wire with gain. it's almost too pristine.

[The Funk]

I would say that many a "pro" recording has been done with less.

 

for example, I produced and mixed a record for a band called El Gringo. the record was recorded for the most part on a Roland DAW with 57's beta 58's an AT3035, and a GT55.

 

Mixed on Sonar 4 with my waves platinum bundle and Ultrafunk Sonitus plugins and a bunch of free vst {censored}.

 

Took 3 months to mix it. If i didn't like the quality of the tracks they gave me I made them rerecord them until I liked them. We sweated over every single note.

 

But damned if it doesn't sound like a pro recording.

 

check it out at www.elgringomusic.com

 

 

I think the key is conscienciousness and attention to detail. If every step is thought about carefully, you don't need thousands of dollars in gear. All you need is the creativity to capture the sounds you want with what you have.

 

That said, we have all invested a lot in gear recently and I will be producing thier next record this summer. And it will be nicer, but more because we learned a lot last time then just because of our new gear.

[BIGD]

Can we sticky the stock boring answers to the top of the forum so that those of us who visit here regularly don't have to see the dead horse beaten to death?

 

 

"Tone is in the fingers"

 

"Use your ears"

 

"A great engineer can record a better record than you with a Fisher Price tape recorder (bull{censored})" etc.

 

 

Tedious!!

[ConcertPhotoZin]

Originally posted by The Funk Took 3 months to mix it. . . . We sweated over every single note.

 

that's the thing. i don't want to take 3 months to mix it. i agree with everybody that a talented person can make a pro recording out of almost anything - even an 8 track ........... once ran through 50 grand of SSL, Massenberg, Manley, etc. gear or otherwise, have lots of time to do it

 

i'm looking to have a gear package that will take the barrier away enough that a person with reasonable skills - not michael jordan skills - can get a pro sound fairly quickly.

 

yes, can be tweaked to death. but right away ......... the quality of the tracks - fatness, detail, etc. - and the outboard gear quickly gets into pro making the eq, compression, etc. as refining it not fixing it.

[UstadKhanAli]

Originally posted by ConcertPhotoZin i'm looking to have a gear package that will take the barrier away enough that a person with reasonable skills - not michael jordan skills - can get a pro sound fairly quickly.

 

I think you've got that already - or at least, a fine start. You can look at things like monitors and sound treatment. That would help a lot. After that, I think it's all you.

[The Funk]

I agree. I think you've got some versitile gear that you should be able to get a wide variety of sounds out of. Its not going to hold you back as long as you concentrate on the basics duing tracking.

 

things like tuning and positioning the drum kit will end up having a greater impact on the sound. Recording's not a race. Be deliberate and you should do fine.

[ConcertPhotoZin]

 

Originally posted by tocs100 Avoid using condenser overheads on the drumkit unless you have a HUGE stage. Otherwise, the cranked amps will bleed through and your cymbal sound especially will be unuseable. It's best to cluster your cymbals around the hi-hat and use one dynamic mic, which is in turn wrapped in a carpet tube for MAXIMUM isolation. (You can add an occasional crash back in the studio for a stereo effect.)

 

 

cool. another interesting tip.

[where02190]

 

Originally posted by tocs100 Avoid using condenser overheads on the drumkit unless you have a HUGE stage. Otherwise, the cranked amps will bleed through and your cymbal sound especially will be unuseable. It's best to cluster your cymbals around the hi-hat and use one dynamic mic, which is in turn wrapped in a carpet tube for MAXIMUM isolation. (You can add an occasional crash back in the studio for a stereo effect.)

 

 

Total BS. Condensors will pick up what's in their pattern, same as a dynamic. I use condensors as OH mics on small stages all the time with no bleed problems. AFA putting a carpet tube over the mic, try putting a carpet tube up to your ear and listen to some cymbals, and I think you'll quickly see why that's not a good idea.

[UstadKhanAli]

Originally posted by tocs100 Avoid using condenser overheads on the drumkit unless you have a HUGE stage. Otherwise, the cranked amps will bleed through and your cymbal sound especially will be unuseable. It's best to cluster your cymbals around the hi-hat and use one dynamic mic, which is in turn wrapped in a carpet tube for MAXIMUM isolation. (You can add an occasional crash back in the studio for a stereo effect.)

 

 

Do you mean omnis?

 

I'd have to disagree with the "cluster your cymbals around the hi-hat and use one dynamic mic" bit, as I cannot imagine that limitation or having the mic wrapped in a carpet tube for isolation would yield anything resembling a natural sound.

[ConcertPhotoZin]

Originally posted by UstadKhanAli Do you mean omnis ? I'd have to disagree with the "cluster your cymbals around the hi-hat and use one dynamic mic" bit, as I cannot imagine that limitation or having the mic wrapped in a carpet tube for isolation would yield anything resembling a natural sound.

 

maybe he's trying to emulate the cup around snare suggestion.

[UstadKhanAli]

Yeah, I guess so. I put tubes around my mics, but that's to get that odd filtering sort of sound.

[ConcertPhotoZin]

 

Originally posted by tocs100 This is all theoretical, but I was thinking of having the head of the mic sticking out of the carpet tube. That way you wouldn't get any filter/funnel effect, just better isolation of off-axis bleed. Now someone mentioned that condensers, like dynamics, only pick-up what's in their polar pattern. Yes, but when you have a guitar cab 5 feet away that's putting out 75-100 watts, those soundwaves will march right into your polar pattern, and will be out of phase too because they'll be hitting the side and back of the mic. Condensers are also more sensitive to quiet signals (hence phantom power) so they pull even more sound into their polar pattern. Overall, mostly theoretical. The best teacher is experience.

 

 

i am going to track the drums with guitars and bass going direct or through boxes. the drums will be live, in a {censored}ty room, basement, low cieling type.