Members Alanfc Posted April 14, 2006 Members Share Posted April 14, 2006 I read something about this and I can't find it now ! Some Pro talking about mixing quietly as an additional method (not a substitute) to find nasty things that pop out at you . (/edit/ I don't mean low end problems). That is, if its overbearing when quiet, its killer when loud. But not always apparent when loud. Am I remembering this right ??thanks if you can help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted April 14, 2006 Members Share Posted April 14, 2006 Lemme tellya a little shtory... A couple decades ago I took a class from a successful local producer (at one of two local colleges with pioneering rec arts programs that I went through chasing free recording time). This guy had had a couple of minor national hits and he seemed like a nice guy. The class was on mixing, the only full class on mixing I ever had. It was a small class -- because the CR at the school was small, very shallow and narrow (but the studio floor was TO KILL FOR, designed by some famous acoustician-turned-architect or somesuch... it was a great room, big enough for a small orchestra)... Anyhow, so we're all jammed in this horrible little room with GAWDAWFUL acoustics and fed by a pair of 4311's! And this guy LOVES to turn it up. Way up. Excruciatingly up. We're listening to his mixes and he's in love with his mixes. He turns it up some more. And then, when something crosses his mind -- he YELLS over the mix. You can't hear anything he says, even if you're two feet away. I start wearing ear protection to class. To MIXING class. I never wore ear protection working with live bands. I seldom wore ear protection at punk and other rock shows. I'm wearing ear protection to mixing class. I pull him aside. (I can kind of do this because I'm about his age and I've been around.) I go, look, you're listening so darn loud it's physically painful for me to be in this class. Do you REALLY think that A) that's fair to the students, many of whom aren't even rockers; B) Do you REALLY think you can mix like that? He was thoughtful and polite and he really did try to make an effort to keep the mix lower -- for the rest of the evening. (It was still so loud he had to yell over it and you still couldn't hear him.) The next week it was more or less back to the same level. I dropped out of the class, even though it was 5 weeks in, at the last instant I could do it without getting an auto-F. So... flash forward a year or two. Through a decision of the label, my friend's band ends up working with this producer. They were a roots post punk band with one of the best, hardest hitting drummers in the area. The album takes a while, as they so often do. The label (which would later become a regional player) has big ideas as the leader of the band is a bit of a legend on the local scene and perceived to have a 'next-big-popstar' personna (now a family psychologist)... The album finally comes out and... it sounds tepid. Turns out they took this great drummer and made him play to clicks and then gated and compressed the hell out of his kit. But -- and here's the punchline -- if you turned it up REAL LOUD -- it sounded pretty good. ______________________ Turning your monitoring volume down to a couple different preset levels -- and then returning the monitoring volume to a standard level can be like having a couple more pair of reference speakers... virtual auratones, if you will. I emphasize the standardized levels though. It's not that you can't change your levels -- but that you want to make standardized comparisons. I used to actually mark my CR monitor level with a few different 'standard' levels. A couple of lower levels. A 'regular' level that was sort of my standard, and then another one that I could switch to late at night or when I was a little burned out. It's when you're burned and your ears are fatigued that you have to watch out most for creeping volume. Anyhow... remind me to go on about it all at length some time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Alanfc Posted April 14, 2006 Author Members Share Posted April 14, 2006 EXCELLENT thank you As it is now, I'm finishing our bands CD #2 and after that won't be mixing again anytime soon. It was fun at first but now its frustrating...I know too much now, and I know I can't get what I need in my listening space (apartment bedroom). It actually makes me crazy like clinically crazy. Professional treament of the space would be a waste of time and money for me now. What I've been doing on this last round with these songs (mix #5 to me, mix #2 to the band) is listening super quiet, fix a little snare here, guitar there,, then pull out my db meter and go to 75 db, then another round of 85-90 db. Doing the loud setting last. On different nights. I've also been trying the quiet listening to the radio...yes they have some stuff sticking out too (snare, voice, some guitars). My problem has always been the angry grating sound of guitar and piercing voice, CHEAP Cardboard sound. Its my listening space's fault. Its eating/hiding stuff in the 800-1500 range that drives me crazy. (I discover this in car testing). THen scoop the hell out of these areas and it gets right... but Indeed by now I've learned my room ... But, I've not practiced my guitar for weeks and my laundry is piling up. Crazy. I'll retire as a mid-level intermediate bedroom mixer. Thats OK I have a day job Thank you again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MrKnobs Posted April 14, 2006 Moderators Share Posted April 14, 2006 As said above, playing something loud tends to make it sound good when it isn't. I constantly check the mix at a low volume while working, because it's a good way to know if something is sticking out of the mix, vocals especially. If you turn the volume way down, and set the vocals just audible over the music, when you turn it up things will be wonderful. Vice versa, not so. Terry D. P.S. This is probably a Fletcher Munson thing, you hear mids a lot more than highs and lows at low volume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members seaneldon Posted April 14, 2006 Members Share Posted April 14, 2006 low level monitoring is good for two huge reasons: save your hearing. listen harder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Funk Posted April 14, 2006 Members Share Posted April 14, 2006 I think its a matter of understanding how people listen to it. Your ears have different response curves depending on volume. They are most linear I believe at 80db, but that doesn't mean your audience will always listen at 80 db. I listen to things a medium volume, loud, soft, at different distances from speakers in different environments and mix until it sounds good EVERYWHERE at any volume on any speaker system. Its the same sort of thing as taking your mix in the car to hear what it sounds like in an uncontrolled environment. You are mixing for an audience and while you want it to sound great on a really nice system, you have to remember to make it sound great on a not so nice system. So yeah, definitely listen quietly. And loudly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted April 14, 2006 Moderators Share Posted April 14, 2006 Finding the right level SPL to minimize the Fletcher Munson curve is the goal there... Bruce Swedien has a lot to say on the subject but to paraphrase him, "keep it the same level most of the time". If you've got your Radio Shack SPL meter sitting there and find that 85dB works for you, try to keep it there all the time. Then you've got a consistent means of monitoring. We all know changing the level changes the curve that gets to our ears so... keeping a consistent level during mixing helps with this pitfall. Having said all that, I love to turn my mix down almost all the way to make sure I hear the lead voice and the snare. If I do that and the voice is there but the snare gone I know something's wrong. Once a mix is rocking at 85dB SPL, I love to crank it to get my rocks off... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Alanfc Posted April 14, 2006 Author Members Share Posted April 14, 2006 Many thanks:thu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gtrbass Posted April 14, 2006 Members Share Posted April 14, 2006 I did a mastering job a while back from a very well known engineer where he was using a pair of monstrous Westlake's powered by Bryston's and the client said he had it CRANKED during the mix sessions. It sounded like ass. Bob Clearmountain was well known for mixing on NS10's at a very low volume. His mixes sound HUGE when cranked. I've tried the 85db with the radio shack spl meter and it works. I actually tend to mix even quieter and check at 85db. It works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members where02190 Posted April 14, 2006 Members Share Posted April 14, 2006 I prefer to mix at absurdly low volumes, almost inaudible. I of course crank it once in awhile, mostly to get my rocks off. There is ALWAYS an SPL meter in front of me, and I generally am in the 65-70db range (A weighted.) I mix 80% on NS-10's, 20% on JBL SLR28P's. Not to pat my own back, but I am constantly commended on how smoothly my mixes translate to any playback scenario. IF you mix loud, yes it'll sound good loud, but it'll sound like ass at lower volumes. Fine if you want to bank on it only being played loud, but that's a big risk in any genre IMHO, one I'm definitely not willing to take, since if I mix at low volumes, it'll sound great loud or quiet or any volume in between. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Alanfc Posted April 14, 2006 Author Members Share Posted April 14, 2006 aha , so I'm not crazy, I =did= read this somewhere.GOOD. One side note/question,is it just my imagination, or does the Waves Renaissance EQ make a signal sound small and muffled compared to the Waves "Q" Paragraphic EQ (Q10, Q6, etc.) ??? Even with relatively few small tweaks in place... For me it doesn't depend on the instrument, its on everything.?Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted April 14, 2006 Members Share Posted April 14, 2006 I like the idea of the SPL meter... that's probably a lot better than a bit of masking tape with a pen mark next to the CR monitor level... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members albert visick Posted April 14, 2006 Members Share Posted April 14, 2006 i mix at very low volume myself - and not as a "additional method"; i only once in a while i monitor at some higher volumes - for the reasons pointed out by others, most of the time my mixing sessions are very quiet. granted, 1) i am not a pro, and 2) i'm pretty sure that my ears are more sensitive and fragile than others' - i cannot enjoy music at the volume levels where most others are perfectly fine... without ear plugs i get "ear fatigue" really quickly whenever i am at clubs, dance floors and rock concerts. so i can't really mix at high volumes even if i wanted to. but yeah, even if that's not the case, i'd guess that it's much easier for anyone to mix at low volume.. i don't know how else i am supposed to figure out something is too loud / quiet, if i am hearing everything LOUD and clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Alanfc Posted April 15, 2006 Author Members Share Posted April 15, 2006 Originally posted by albert visick ....... i don't know how else i am supposed to figure out something is too loud / quiet, if i am hearing everything LOUD and clear.... Albert this is priceless- not kidding. This makes so much sense (to me atleast) Thanks alot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GeoffonTour Posted April 15, 2006 Members Share Posted April 15, 2006 I've made the mistake of mixing loud and having a couple instruments at completely the wrong volume when I turned it down, so always check. That being said, it's not a given that it's going to sound better if you mix it quietly, just make sure it's not going to cripple the mix by missing something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members CN Fletcher Posted April 15, 2006 Members Share Posted April 15, 2006 Please leave my cat "Munson" out of this discussion... he's very shy and doesn't enjoy it when bad practices are blamed on him. The trick with mixing... all mixing is to get an "average". Your goal is to reinforce the emotion the song is trying to project, to present the artist's vision and emotion on as wide an array of reproduction systems as humanly possible. Unfortunately there are a ton of mother{censored}ers out there who feel it is their mission in life to get something to "sound correct" ["modern", "current", whatever you want to call it]. Gating, and compressing drums is a great sport... that was played out by 1988 and finally shot in the head once and for all by Andy Wallace [using samples on "Nevermind"... but don't get me started], and finished by Michael Beinhorn and Jason Corsaro with Soundgarden's "Superunknown" [and some of Henry Hirsh's work with the currently irrelevant "Lenny Kravitz" but I'm contractually not allowed to talk about that]. Mixing "loud" is like "driving fast"... seriously fun to do... totally sucks when you're a passenger. There are guys who gravitate toward mixing loud as they're able to add "energy" to the track via volume that is missing when you remove the "volume". Even harder than mixing quietly is tracking quietly. It's pretty tough to listen to the monitors at 60db after you've just had your head a foot away from a 110db SPL snare drum... you seriously need a minute or two to adjust, but if you take that minute or two you'll lose the sound you have in your head that you're trying to get to come out of the speakers... but I digress. When you mix softly [and have a few different sets of speakers on which to monitor] you can get a better idea of "balance". If you bring the mix down to "barely audible" [with the lights down low and the "computer monitors set to the lowest 'brightness' setting possible-- shut down the eyes and the ears will open!!], you'll understand the relationship of the vocals to the rest of the song. By moving that mix to various reference points you'll understand how to 'average' that relationship so it works. That's why small speakers like 'Auratones' [a.k.a "horrortones"] and 'boomboxes' are great tools... so is "one speaker mono" and listening low with one speaker mono... if your mix stays in tact at 60db in one speaker mono you're definitely on to something... if it turns into a boxy ball of {censored} then you have to break the mix down and figure out what is causing the boxiness or just start again. You will never get a good idea on what is going on with the lowest octave at 60db... for that, you need it loud. You have to figure out "how low you can go" without blowing up speakers... and figure out how the LF information is affecting the action(s) of your 2 buss compression [if any, though in modern times most mixes won't sound modern without 2 buss compression... lots of 2 buss compression... and individual instrument compression and sub buss compression and more compression so that everything in the song is running at "loudest" all the time... but again, I digress]. There are no right or wrong methods and no right or wrong results... only what pleases the artist/production team's sense of aesthetic for the song and what does not please the artist/production team's sense of aesthetic for the song. As always... YMMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Alanfc Posted April 15, 2006 Author Members Share Posted April 15, 2006 Originally posted by GeoffonTour ............ it's not a given that it's going to sound better if you mix it quietly, just make sure it's not going to cripple the mix by missing something. yes this was my original goal,we'll see what happens in car tests tommorrow ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Alanfc Posted April 15, 2006 Author Members Share Posted April 15, 2006 Originally posted by Fletcher@mercenary.com .................. (good stuff snipped)............As always... YMMV. THANK YOU:love: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members albert visick Posted April 15, 2006 Members Share Posted April 15, 2006 i helped my engineer install those little auratones speakers in the mixing room the other day. it happened to be the last day of mixing my album, and we took full advantage of them. before that, after each session i took home every single thing i did on that day and monitored those work-in-progress mixes on my boombox - in order to do what Fletcher explained... so it was really nice to be able to do it in real time, right on the spot while bouncing the tracks. the pair was like $50 - sounded like a great investment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted April 15, 2006 Members Share Posted April 15, 2006 I mix relatively quietly. But I move around the volume a bit, listening quietly, listening really loudly - gotta hear what's going on in the bottom end, you know? And I listen on various speakers to hear how the mix translates on them (loudly and softly). I have good monitors, but I still feel far more comfortable if I can hear the mix on other speakers (boombox, car stereo, etc.). I figure if it sounds good on all the speakers, then I've got a winner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EccentRick Posted April 15, 2006 Members Share Posted April 15, 2006 Originally posted by blue2blue I like the idea of the SPL meter... that's probably a lot better than a bit of masking tape with a pen mark next to the CR monitor level... :D Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EccentRick Posted April 15, 2006 Members Share Posted April 15, 2006 Originally posted by Fletcher@mercenary.com Mixing "loud" is like "driving fast"... seriously fun to do... totally sucks when you're a passenger. LOL That's why small speakers like 'Auratones' [a.k.a "horrortones"] and 'boomboxes' are great tools... so is "one speaker mono" and listening low with one speaker mono... if your mix stays in tact at 60db in one speaker mono you're definitely on to something... if it turns into a boxy ball of {censored} then you have to break the mix down and figure out what is causing the boxiness or just start again. Can I get an Amen?! Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members where02190 Posted April 15, 2006 Members Share Posted April 15, 2006 If you bring the mix down to "barely audible" [with the lights down low and the "computer monitors set to the lowest 'brightness' setting possible-- shut down the eyes and the ears will open!! Couldn't agree more. When I am mixing, if I don't need em, I shut the (video) monitors OFF entirely. Once the editing is done, I switch transport control to the console and it's automation, so I have no need to see the actual waveforms. I find this helps me to audibly see the music so much clearer. The eyes will see things that are not part of the music, or the problem, and become a distraction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EccentRick Posted April 15, 2006 Members Share Posted April 15, 2006 Originally posted by where02190 I find this helps me to audibly see the music so much clearer. "...audibly see the music..." Absolutely *key*. The eyes will see things that are not part of the music, or the problem, and become a distraction. I wholeheartedly agree. (FWTW ) Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.