Recorderman Overheads

[GuitarPLayer61990]

Hey all,

 

My question is about the Recorder Man method of recording overheads-

 

Basically, when they say make sure it's equidistant to snare and kick, I can get it the same distance from the snare (I go by 50 inches high though, not 2 stick lengths).

 

***When they say the kick, do they mean the front of the kick, or the back of it? (by front, I mean side furthest away from the drummer, and by back I mean side closest to the drummer)***

 

if anyone has a picture they could post of this method, and if possible, draw lines in paint or something on it, pointing to where the mics are away from, that would be awesome.

 

Sorry if this message is a little confusing!

 

Danny

 

 

 

 

[Double Post in The Recording Forum]

[where02190]

I get such a laugh about the 2 stick length above the snare {censored}, that'd be right in the drummer face!!!!

[littledog]

That's because you aren't doing it right.

 

But one mic can often end up just to the right of the drumer's right ear, which some might find annoying.

 

Anyway, in answer to the original question, you measure from the point where the pedal actually hits the skin.

 

Done properly you get an extremely tight sound with minimal phase issues.

[where02190]

2 sticks is approximately 28 inches. 28 inches above the snare is the middle of my forehead. Put a mic there it'll last about 5 seconds before it gets hit.

 

28 inches above my snare is below the cymbals.

[littledog]

That would explain it.

 

If you put your cymbals that high I can see where this method would pose a problem. The vast majority of drummers I record have their cymbals quite a bit lower than that... the striking area of the cymbal is usually around shoulder level or even lower.

 

Could be a style thing - I tend to record more funk, R&B, gospel, jazz, blues, folk, reggae, word-beat, classical, various ethnic, etc. than metal or hard core rock.

 

For those styles Recorderman's method has given me some excellent results over the last three or four years, and I've never had a drummer hit the over snare mic with a stick yet. (I have had a drummer occasionally brush against the other mic with his headphones).

 

But even Recorderman himself says there's no reason you can't play around with the exact distance - 28" isn't etched in stone, and the principal works with larger distances. It's just if you get too far away from the snare, you might get a less advantageous balance of cymbals versus snare and toms.

[GuitarPLayer61990]

So I could go something like 40 or 50 inches if I wanted to?

 

Also, would that screw up the relationship between kick and overheads if I moved it up or down?

[UstadKhanAli]

Originally posted by GuitarPLayer61990 So I could go something like 40 or 50 inches if I wanted to? Also, would that screw up the relationship between kick and overheads if I moved it up or down?

 

I realize this is a totally pat answer, but at some point, you have to fire up the monitors and put down the measuring stick.

 

28 inches, 40 inches, 50 inches, they all get different sounds, but depending on the application, you can get a great sound doing just about any measurement (and with a couple of drummers I've gotten here, the best distance would probably be about two kilometers! ).

[Phil O'Keefe]

A few links for you:

 

Here is a description of the "Recorderman" drum mic technique.

 

Here's a thread from JJ Blair's forum over on Musicplayer.

 

And finally, here's a thread with JJ, Recorderman and others discussing three mic techniques over on Gearslutz.

 

Until fairly recently, I had never heard of Recorderman. No offense to him intended of course... I just hadn't heard of him or his technique. So anyway, I checked out the description over on MARSH (first link), and frankly, it has me scratching my head a bit too. It sounds similar to the classic "three mic technique", as established / pioneered by guys like Glynn Johns and Geoff Emerick, although his "two stick distance" and "one mic centered over the snare / second mic near the drummer's right shoulder" placements are definitely different... usually with the classic technique, the centered over the snare mic is a bit higher (I normally start off at around 42" over my snare, although that's always subject to change) and with the other mic over near the floor tom, at an equal distance. While I have not tried Recorderman's exact suggestions (so I can't say for certain if it would "work" for me or not), I would be concerned about those two mics being a little too close to the drums, the drummer (and sticks) and frankly, to each other... but again, don't knock it until you try it is generally a good motto, so I won't.

 

The classic three mic technique is tried and true. The thing I like about those threads - especially the Gearsluts and Musicplayer threads, is that JJ did a great job with some photos what make it much easier to see what he's describing. The "Distance A = Distance B" photo on Gearsluts shows the classic positioning very clearly... although the yellow lines makes it look like they're being measured from the edge of the snare, when in reality, most guys base it off of the dead center of the snare drum - myself, and based on his written description, JJ included.

 

The ideal height of the overheads is going to depend on a lot of different factors. First of all, each kit and each drummer's setup is different. Some guys sling their cymbals really low, almost right on top of their drums, while others have them up higher - and as much as possible, I prefer to work around their setup instead of having them work around mine - it makes them more comfortable, which I generally find to be beneficial. So unless there's a really good reason to get them to change the setup, I try to work around them.... which means I don't stick to any single "one setup works with all" approach. Second, the room you're recording in plays a significant role in the sound, and you may need to adjust height of the mics depending on the amount of room tone vs direct sound you're trying to capture. Third, unless you're made of money, you probably don't want the drummer smashing your prized condensers with a drum stick, so you probably will want to take that into consideration too.

 

As far as kick mics go, I tend to not get a lot of bleed into those from the snare and the rest of the kit, so I normally don't worry too much about it being equidistant from the center of the snare drum. Lately, I've been using a E/V RE20 just inside the front head hole, with a Yamaha Subkick just outside the kick... and again, you tend to avoid a lot of bleed into the kick mics that way. I've also been known to use a LD condenser mic instead of the Subkick, and that mic will usually be placed out in front of the kick drum a bit further. In those cases, you might want to try to get it equidistant from the snare - IOW, the same distance as the overhead mics. Some guys (again, I've been known to do this too) will stick a second, completely headless kick drum shell in front of the main kick drum, or build a tunnel out of chairs and packing blankets and stick the condenser at the end of that - which can help with isolation on the distant LD condenser if you're looking for that... while other guys will use the LD condenser out in front of the kit as more of a room mic, in which case you'll want to "let it bleed".

 

There's so many variations and approaches to miking a drum kit, and IMO, no single approach can work for everyone and everything... so you have to experiment and see what works for you. I hope you got some useful tips from this, and if you have questions on how I do things, or on the classic three mic technique, I'll do what I can to try to help you / answer them, but as far as Recorderman's technique, I'm not going to try to speak for the man and IMO, you're probably better off asking him directly.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Originally posted by GuitarPLayer61990 So I could go something like 40 or 50 inches if I wanted to? I don't see why not. Also, would that screw up the relationship between kick and overheads if I moved it up or down? It might. You should check the phase of the overheads vs kick mic(s), and either adjust positioning or hit the phase reverse switch if needed. JJ's Musicplayer thread goes into some detail about how he approaches that, and has some good suggestions.

[GuitarPLayer61990]

Thanks so much for the replies! Theres a lot of good information in there, and it will definitely help me and get me thinking. There is one question I have though, since reading your replies; hopefully someone can fill me in!

 

With Recorderman technique, is it that the distance from the snare to overheads is the same distance from snare to kick?

 

Or is it that the distance from the snare to overheads is the same distance as kick to overheads?

[GuitarPLayer61990]

That, and would the 3 mic technique work with SDC too? Or would it have to be a LDC?

[Phil O'Keefe]

Originally posted by GuitarPLayer61990 With Recorderman technique, is it that the distance from the snare to overheads is the same distance from snare to kick? Again, I'm not really sure on his technique - and the best source for info on what he does is probably him. That, and would the 3 mic technique work with SDC too? Or would it have to be a LDC? Absolutely. Small diaphragm condensers are fine... or ribbon mics, etc.

[GuitarPLayer61990]

I've recorded the drum tracks for the latest album we are working on with Recorderman's technique, only twist being I'm using omni mics for the OH's, and cheap ones at that. I am also using a snare mic, a kick mic outside the kick (front side), and a room mic.

 

The easiest way, imho, to set up the mics for the overheads, while also making a useful, repeatable tool, is as follows:

 

first take a piece of string and measure 35" from one end and put a piece of tape as a marker.

 

With masking tape, tape the free end of the string (35" from the marker) to the center of the snare drum head. Now stretch it up straight from the snare drum, and position the OH mic diaphragm at the marked spot on the string (should end up 35" from the center of the snare head).

 

While holding this marker in place on the OH mic diaphragm, take the other (free) end of the string and stretch it to the kick drum head, at the spot where the beater strikes the head. Tape it down there. You can make a mark on the string at this spot too, or just simply cut it off.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I found that in the link you sent me (the first one), and I'm trying to make sense of it... maybe I just can't pay attention right now, but could someone reword that in simpler terms for me?

[UstadKhanAli]

On the first of Phil's links:

 

dcpianoman wrote on Tue, 27 July 2004 13:03

 

does changing the distance from the snare (say 3 drum sticks) substantially change the balance of the kit? I'd think it would...but hopefully someone who has tried it can answer.

 

Brendo responded:

 

I do seem to remember several people saying 2 sticks was too close, and recorderman agreed. He said the sticks thing was just a rough guide, and mainly because they're something you should have on hand at every drum session Wink

 

Of course, moving the mics back further will increase the amount of room and decrease the amount of direct sound...

[littledog]

 

Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe As far as kick mics go, I tend to not get a lot of bleed into those from the snare and the rest of the kit, so I normally don't worry too much about it being equidistant from the center of the snare drum. Lately, I've been using a E/V RE20 just inside the front head hole, with a Yamaha Subkick just outside the kick... and again, you tend to avoid a lot of bleed into the kick mics that way. I've also been known to use a LD condenser mic instead of the Subkick, and that mic will usually be placed out in front of the kick drum a bit further. In those cases, you might want to try to get it equidistant from the snare - IOW, the same distance as the overhead mics.

 

 

Phil, I may be misinterpreting what you wrote, but it is not part of recorderman's technique to have the kick mic have a relationship to the center of the snare. The technique is to have each overhead mic the same distance from the center of the snare (which we can call Measurement A), while also those same overheads are equal distance from the spot where the beater hits the kick drum (Measurement B). There is no set or ideal relationship between Measurement A and Measurement B - they are unrelated to eachother. The crucial point of the technique is to eliminate any phase issues between the overheads when picking up the kick and the snare signals, while still getting a decent picture of the cymbals and toms.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Thanks for the clarification on that. I wasn't trying to imply that there was a relationship between "Measurement A" and "Measurement B" in Recorderman's setup - only trying to indicate that I don't, beyond phase issues, personally worry about that (getting all the measurements equal) too much, while some people (not specifically Recorderman) do.

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding Recorderman's technique, but it sounds to me like he has the overhead mics closer to each other than I would normally personally prefer. One directly over the snare, with the other near the drummer's right shoulder sounds like it would lead to phase issues in the overheads - not so much with the snare and kick, since they're each apparently the same distance away from those (for example, overheads each 3' from center of snare, overheads each 4.5' from the strike zone on the kick or whatever), but with the rest of the kit (toms / cymbals), and possibly a fairly narrow stereo image - which to me would be bigger issues than the kick drum... but I'm probably not understanding it as well as I should. I wish he had some pictures of it posted. Can you explain the overhead placement a bit more clearly for us? Pics would be nice if you have some.

[GuitarPLayer61990]

If the overheads are the same distance from the snare, how do you also make those the same distance from the kick without screwing up the relationship between the snare? Do you have to physically move the kickdrum around?

[littledog]

GP: It sometimes gets tricky. The idea is once you get the snare distance set, you leave the mic over the snare in a fixed postion. Then I use a piece of string or a tape measure while moving the second mic around. Say the distance to the snare is 36" and the distance to the kick is 48". Now it becomes a kind of geometry problem to find a good spot for the second mic which is both 36" from the snare and 48" from the kick. And no, I would not recommend moving the kick around - it's a lot easier to move the mic!

 

Phil: sorry I don't have any pictures handy. And I felt exactly like you and Where and others when Recorderman first posted this method. I even asked him some of the same questions about stereo image, etc.

 

His response was basically: "It looks weird, and you can make a dozen arguments about why it shouldn't work. That being said, just try it and see if you aren't pleasantly surprised."

 

So I did. And I really liked it and have used it on the majority of projects since. It might not be my choice for music that isn't kick and snare driven - like free jazz projects for instance.

 

Recorderman never made any claims that this method was the end-all and be-all. All he said was that on some projects in some rooms with some players it might give you some really excellent results.

[seaneldon]

i don't know this as the "recorderman" method (i don't know it by any name, it's just something i figured was semi-known around the drum-micing community), but i've done this quite a bit. It does get a really great, almost perfect stereo image of the kit (different from your standard spaced pair or X/Y, too) if you spend a little time making sure it's perfect. in many cases, i just use a stereo ribbon (royer sf12) for overheads, but when the drums need to be really bright or maybe have a more direct sound (the royer is two figure 8 mics and gets TONS of room), I do tend to go for this method. it does make room mics a little harder to place properly for whatever scientific reason, but is KILLER for rock drums. i've done it with soundelux e47s, neumann u87s, blue dragonfly deluxes, akg c414b/tlii's, and gefell m92.1s. it always sounded suprisingly perfect AS LONG AS THE BAND CALLED FOR THIS KIND OF SOUND. as stated above, for free jazz stuff i'd probably just set up the sf12 and a kick mic and nothing else.

[GuitarPLayer61990]

So then what should I do? Just move the second mic around until it sounds good? Leave it and flip the phase on the kick?

 

Only reason I'm asking, is because I'm trying this tomorrow at a session I'm doing.

[where02190]

Even at 35" above the snare, I can't imagine it not getting whacked unless a miget is playing drums. I am 5-9, I keep my cymbals modestly low (lower than most all the drummers that come through here) and there's no way a mic 35" over the snare wouldn't get hit, alot. Your average snare is maybe 2 feet from floor to rim. add 35" to that and you are one inch shy of 5 feet. Sitting on my lower than most throne, I can easily extend my hands to 5 1/2 feet. Ad a stick to that and we are at over 6 1/2 feet.

 

I play a small kit, 20" kick, 12" rack (tom mounted and just off the kick enough so it doesn't make contact) 14/16 floors. My cymbals are all at shoulder level. I tried this setup, the OH was totally in my way, and it picked up nothing but snare basically.

 

Sorry but I don't see how this, even at 3 feet above the snare would work.

[alcohol]

I've tried and use the Recorderman technique and it works real well. Gets a great snare sound. Kick and Snare are right in phase. Get's a good sound from the whole kit. In my small studio with low ceilings this has been my best overhead technique. Two sticks isn't quite high enough, but maybe another foot does it. No drummer has complained that the overheads have gotten in his way.

[littledog]

 

Originally posted by where02190 Sorry but I don't see how this, even at 3 feet above the snare would work.

 

 

Well, you may not be able to imagine it, but it does work, as many who have tried it will attest, including Sean Elden and Joe Egan apparently.

 

Since we're neighbors, you are welcome to drop in and see for yourself any time I'm tracking drums. As a side wager, I'm willing to give you 3-1 odds that the drummer doesn't hit the mic once with his sticks. I'm feeling pretty safe about that bet, since in three years of using this method it hasn't happened yet.

 

That's not to say that the method would or should work for you. For whatever reason (maybe you throw your sticks around more than any of the drummers I work with, maybe you have a different angle of attack on the cymbals, etc.) it doesn't appear to be something that works with your playing style. No problem - different strokes for different folks.

 

But some of the top drummers in New England have been very happy with this method when I've recorded them.

[where02190]

You've already lost that bet, I and a couple drummer friends tried it, not one of us felt comfortable with mics that close, and the image they captured was not even remotely a full picture of the kit. Glad it works for you, but is certainly doesn't work for any drummer I've even worked with, and I'm not putting my mics that close to any drummer or kit. At 2 sticks, or even 3, no cardiod sees the entire kit unless the kit is only kick and snare, the pattern isn't wide enough at that distance.

[alcohol]

I haven't conducted a test, but my impression is that this Recorderman method gave a wider image of the drumkit than several x/y placements that I've tried.