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Why The New Music Biz Gurus Are Frauds


richardmac

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Oh sorry ok I was taking it from a standpoint of an independent artist getting signed. In that case, I do not think the songs matter as much because after you're signed, the label and management can always buy you songs. What the label is really looking for is a sensation.. a unique voice. special look.. Something special. Not song writing skills.


Ultimately you are right the songs matter most of course when it comes to listening, but that supposes you are already signed and have label backing to get those songs. You can write great songs like pro Songwriters, but the reason why they don't perform them is usually because of their looks. In the 60's, songwriters were actually performing their own songs.. Crosby stills and nash.. good luck signing them these days.

 

 

 

Being "signed" is getting more and more irrelevant. Pretty soon it won't matter at all. All the artists that are doing well do good live business and these aren't the pop, singles driven people you hear on radio. Most of them can't tour but Arcade Fire sells out rooms across the world. So increasingly you better have music people like for the long haul and REAL fans that will come out to support you and stick with you. Pop doesn't have that. Neither the music or the artists themselves have much longevity and that paradigm has been and contributing to the downfall and the further loss of relevancy of the Major Labels. Short sighted thinking on so many levels that has brought them down. Last thing I would want to do is try to get in bed with them or listen to what they have to say regarding my career if I were an artist starting out.

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That's the problem though. Way, way too many artists focus on exceptions. That just isn't a wise choice for the up and coming artist to focus on exceptions. Yes exceptions happen, but lets focus on reality:


-If you are a 'sting' style band, you have to play live to get a fan base. Internet doesn't work.

-If you have this 'connection' with the audience, you will get more fans.

-If you are older, overweight, and don't look good, etc it will be very difficult to get a major deal.

-If you make urban, you'll have to do the free mixtape, Youtube/Twitter online hustle and have to fund this yourself.


These are safe 'laws' for any aspiring artists to follow. To be truthful, if you disagree and grasp onto the exceptions, you are more of a 'dreamer' than a realist. The artistic mind tends to dream more than stay down to earth.

 

 

Again, why do you think you need a "Major" Deal? Don't be stuck in the past. It's becoming more and more irrelevant. Maybe for a handful of people that might work but for most it's just not needed. Building a fanbase that will support you for real is where it's at. Arcade Fire, Dave Matthews, Phish, and many many other artists have harnessed this business plan and are doing fine live music and respectable sales of records and merch. i.e. They are making a living. Most do not get any air play but they do great live business, get their songs licensed, etc. This is the new music business. NOT getting into bed with a Soon to be Bankrupt Major Label.

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Yes. This is how it's done in Japan. The thing is Japan is overly corporatized and there you can pay for rotation. Some feel the same might happen here seing as the big labels pretty much own radio rotation through payola loopholes.


Try to get nationwide radio play without being on a major. Go and try. You can easily get this in the UK. Not here. (watch someone is going to bring up another exception and keep clinging on to the exception to the rule.. bad way of thinking)

 

 

Again. Irrelevant. Less and less people are listening to Radio. MOST are tuning out. Radio airplay is NOT the future, it's the Past. Trying to adhere to that model is not forward thinking in the least. As far as Japan goes, many great artists that don't get attention over here because they are too eclectic or whatever do quite well there! Their version of Pop has no bearing on that. Great market over there for American Artists.

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Oh sorry ok I was taking it from a standpoint of an independent artist getting signed. In that case, I do not think the songs matter as much because after you're signed, the label and management can always buy you songs. What the label is really looking for is a sensation.. a unique voice. special look.. Something special. Not song writing skills.


Ultimately you are right the songs matter most of course when it comes to listening, but that supposes you are already signed and have label backing to get those songs. You can write great songs like pro Songwriters, but the reason why they don't perform them is usually because of their looks. In the 60's, songwriters were actually performing their own songs.. Crosby stills and nash.. good luck signing them these days.

 

 

Probably true in the case of pop music. Gaga and Perry both could have been any attractive bimbo singing the same thing. But once they were "majored," the labels hired, no doubt, some top biz pop writers to "co-write" hits with them.

 

But the next CSN will be doing their own thing these days - they'll be on CDBaby and iTunes, they'll be trying to go viral on YouTube. Good music will still be out there - it will just be hard to find.

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Probably true in the case of pop music. Gaga and Perry both could have been any attractive bimbo singing the same thing. But once they were "majored," the labels hired, no doubt, some top biz pop writers to "co-write" hits with them.


But the next CSN will be doing their own thing these days - they'll be on CDBaby and iTunes, they'll be trying to go viral on YouTube. Good music will still be out there - it will just be hard to find.

 

 

 

Not only harder to find, but the problem of access has to be solved for the music business to ever become what it used to be. Because where once music was delivered to the consumer via radio and TV, those mediums, particularly radio and video TV, are less and less relevant for consumers. And while anything can be found on the internet, you still have to persuade consumers to go log on, find it, listen to it and get it. Many records sold in the past from repeated playing on the radio. Some records I bought in the 70s were songs I heard fifty or sixty times on the radio before I went out and bought the record. That isn't going to happen with online sales. You have basically one shot per listener of selling them on your music.

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Again, why do you think you need a "Major" Deal?

 

 

Because they own tv/radio rotation across America. Stats show that radio and tv are still by FAR the number one way fans get introduced to bands.

 

 

Don't be stuck in the past. It's becoming more and more irrelevant. Maybe for a handful of people that might work but for most it's just not needed.

 

 

You seem to be hung up on exceptions.

 

If you are a string band sure you can make a living playing live (pop/urban forget it). If you want to be a millionaire and famous, you certainly need to signed a major label. These corporations control tv and radio and decide who the 'masses' listen to.

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But the next CSN will be doing their own thing these days - they'll be on CDBaby and iTunes, they'll be trying to go viral on YouTube. Good music will still be out there - it will just be hard to find.

 

 

Ok but.. I dont know who you guys know or associate with, but where I live, we listen to FM radio in the morning. Kids watch music videos. I like AM talk radio, I like Jazz radio, and I sometimes listen to pop radio.. my wife likes that. People are far too lazy to go out and 'hunt down' music or even load an iPod. Remember an iPod is just a new age Walkman. I used my walkman for years until I got older and didn't need one when I got a car. Then I started listening to radio.

 

Think about how much in denial you guys are (i mean that in a nice way). You are so blinded by dreaming and wishful thinking, that you really believe adults and the masses are going to hunt out your specific music online, load it on an iPod which honestly is a walkman, and then and somehow support you online to the point that you're going to do venues and make a living like Dave Matthews??

 

That is a fantasy I'm sorry. For the next LONG time, there will always be local radio (people like that and WANT it), and the majors will always control what you hear. Internet radio still has to pay the artist fee's per spin and many internet radio stations have not been able to survive. These rules are specifically setup to keep the little guys out.

 

Here is what the industry wants to sign. Youth, Looks, some talent.. some song writing.

 

 

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Because where once music was delivered to the consumer via radio and TV, those mediums, particularly radio and video TV, are less and less relevant for consumers.

 

 

There has been a decrease sure because of all the new mediums, but in the bigger picture of things, do you honestly think this monopoly is going to go away?

 

Here is the crux of the matter - mainstream people like my wife like being spoon fed music. I've never seen my wife once ever look for music on the internet. She's 34, pregnant, works full time, does her facebook, and she just doesn't care to search for music. When she's in the kitchen, she turns on the radio, gets spoon fed her songs, and is happy with that.

 

People are lazy and trust me they aren't going to be searching out music and test listening to millions of artists.

 

What will likely happen (from what I read), is that there will be a Rotten Tomatoes sort of site. Bloggers trying to sort through everything telling you what is good and what isn't. Of course that poses so many problems in itself. So if you want Country, you go on the site, they will feature the weeks most highly rated and recommended, and you can check out what you like. There's tons of problems with this system and a million ways to cheat it.

 

As much as it pains me to say this because I am very anti gov't, I think the answer is to do what the BBC is doing. You will get your song played nationwide, with no paid spins. No ads even. Just DJ's hosting and playing good music. The BBC is very similar to college radio with different hosts and featuring local talent. I can't tell you how successful this is in the UK. It's very easy to get your song on the radio in the BBC. Remember this is nationwide live with no corporate interests.

 

I can say, average people aren't going to hunt for music and load them onto ipods. You guys are dreaming if you think this is going to happen.

 

I know a lot here like country, check out the BBC's country http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006x527

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Because they own tv/radio rotation across America. Stats show that radio and tv are still by FAR the number one way fans get introduced to bands.




You seem to be hung up on exceptions.


If you are a string band sure you can make a living playing live (pop/urban forget it). If you want to be a millionaire and famous, you certainly need to signed a major label. These corporations control tv and radio and decide who the 'masses' listen to.

 

 

 

Hmm, yea...Well I don't consider pop or urban really when i think of this biz and the days of becoming a millionaire and famous are coming to an end. Better research it. Also, less and less people are listening to the radio as research shows. They are TUNING OUT..Major Labels are bleeding cash and going broke. EMI already went broke and look at their catalog!! Also, Record companies do not own radio and TV stations although they do have the pull to get their artists played.

 

So, I have to disagree with everything you said and say that we're moving away from that entire old way of doing things.

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Ok but.. I dont know who you guys know or associate with, but where I live, we listen to FM radio in the morning. Kids watch music videos. I like AM talk radio, I like Jazz radio, and I sometimes listen to pop radio.. my wife likes that. People are far too lazy to go out and 'hunt down' music or even load an iPod. Remember an iPod is just a new age Walkman. I used my walkman for years until I got older and didn't need one when I got a car. Then I started listening to radio.


Think about how much in denial you guys are (i mean that in a nice way). You are so blinded by dreaming and wishful thinking, that you really believe adults and the masses are going to hunt out your specific music online, load it on an iPod which honestly is a walkman, and then and somehow support you online to the point that you're going to do venues and make a living like Dave Matthews??


That is a fantasy I'm sorry. For the next LONG time, there will always be local radio (people like that and WANT it), and the majors will always control what you hear. Internet radio still has to pay the artist fee's per spin and many internet radio stations have not been able to survive. These rules are specifically setup to keep the little guys out.


Here is what the industry wants to sign. Youth, Looks, some talent.. some song writing.


 

 

The "industry and sludge (for the most part) it {censored}s out are just that! I agree that radio will be playing what the majors put out for a long time to come but since the demographic they pander to, youth, looks, etc DOES NOT BUY MUSIC ANYMORE, they are {censored}ed, I would say! Also, very few of the {censored}-ass pop kids have any draw whatsoever, to tour..Most can't and don't...Where's all the money for the Big Lables? low sales, low ticket sales????

 

No one is in denial here buddy. We reasearch this constantly and have been having discourse on these subjects a long while. We look at the data, analyze the trends, and debate our opinions. I'm glad you stated yours but all of your facts have pretty much been disproven bro. Seriously, you need to look into what's happening in the music industry a bit more. The Indie's did better overall than the majors last year...Read that again because it's going to be a continuing trend....Ya know who buys the most music now?? People OVER 40 years old!! And the Music Industry is pandering to who??? The kids?? Hence, they are {censored}ed. I rest my case.

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There has been a decrease sure because of all the new mediums, but in the bigger picture of things, do you honestly think this monopoly is going to go away?


Here is the crux of the matter - mainstream people like my wife
like
being spoon fed music. I've never seen my wife once ever look for music on the internet. She's 34, pregnant, works full time, does her facebook, and she just doesn't care to search for music. When she's in the kitchen, she turns on the radio, gets spoon fed her songs, and is happy with that.


People are lazy and trust me they aren't going to be searching out music and test listening to millions of artists.


What will likely happen (from what I read), is that there will be a Rotten Tomatoes sort of site. Bloggers trying to sort through everything telling you what is good and what isn't. Of course that poses so many problems in itself. So if you want Country, you go on the site, they will feature the weeks most highly rated and recommended, and you can check out what you like. There's tons of problems with this system and a million ways to cheat it.


As much as it pains me to say this because I am very anti gov't, I think the answer is to do what the BBC is doing. You will get your song played nationwide, with no paid spins. No ads even. Just DJ's hosting and playing good music. The BBC is very similar to college radio with different hosts and featuring local talent. I can't tell you how successful this is in the UK. It's very easy to get your song on the radio in the BBC. Remember this is nationwide live with no corporate interests.


I can say, average people aren't going to hunt for music and load them onto ipods. You guys are dreaming if you think this is going to happen.


I know a lot here like country, check out the BBC's country

 

 

Question: Is your wife buying the {censored} she is being spoon fed? Gaga, Katy Perry, Bruno Mars, etc? I would bet not. The traditional Labels are {censored}ed because of this..No one is buying their music because people with taste know it sucks, older people flat out don't like it, and the kids, mom's and casual music listeners don't give a {censored} about music enough to care enough to bother to buy it. If they are intrigued a bit, they steal it to check it out, or just go to youtube, grooveshark, spotify, or a myriad of other places to stream it. Why buy? That's a dying paradigm, yet again.

 

So I have to ask? Where is all this money that Major Labels need going to come from? How are their artists going to make any? {censored}, you can look at Major artists from the past and it's easy to see many of them never made much, and that's in the days when music sold! The Labels did though...NOT ANYMORE! Streaming is the future, not owning. Again I'll ask where's the $$????

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Question: Is your wife buying the {censored} she is being spoon fed? Gaga, Katy Perry, Bruno Mars, etc? I would bet not. The traditional Labels are {censored}ed because of this..No one is buying their music because people with taste know it sucks, older people flat out don't like it, and the kids, mom's and casual music listeners don't give a {censored} about music enough to care enough to bother to buy it. If they are intrigued a bit, they steal it to check it out, or just go to youtube, grooveshark, spotify, or a myriad of other places to stream it. Why buy? That's a dying paradigm, yet again.

 

 

hahahaha nice one!

 

iTunes top 25 OF ALL TIME

 

1. “I Gotta Feeling,” Black Eyed Peas

 

2. “Poker Face,” Lady Gaga

 

3. “Boom Boom Pow,” Black Eyed Peas

 

4. “I’m Yours,” Jason Mraz

 

5. “Viva la Vida,” Coldplay

 

6. “Just Dance,” Lady Gaga & Colby O’Donis

 

7. “Low,” Flo Rida (featuring T-Pain)

 

8. “Love Story,” Taylor Swift

 

9. “Bleeding Love,” Leona Lewis

 

10. “TiK ToK,” Ke$ha

 

11. “Disturbia,” Rihanna

 

12. “So What,” Pink

 

13. “I Kissed a Girl,” Katy Perry

 

14. “Single Ladies (Put a Ring on It),” Beyoncé

 

15. “Hot N Cold,” Katy Perry

 

16. “Stronger,” Kanye West

 

17. “Live Your Life,” T.I. (featuring Rihanna)

 

18. “Hey There Delilah,” Plain White T’s

 

19. “Right Round,” Flo Rida

 

20. “Party in the U.S.A.,” Miley Cyrus

 

21. “Don’t Stop Believin’,” Journey

 

22. “Bad Romance,” Lady Gaga

 

23. “Use Somebody,” Kings of Leon

 

24. “Fireflies,” Owl City

 

25. “How to Save a Life,” the Fray

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Seriously, you need to look into what's happening in the music industry a bit more. The Indie's did better overall than the majors last year...

 

 

That's odd considering the indie control something like 18% of the market.

 

I'm trying to fill a selfish viewpoint here of the artist. If the indies do well, who cares. There are SO MANY labels and artists, that your share of the pie would see almost no change in your current status. So what if the indies do well. How is that effecting you as an artist directly? It isn't.

 

When I say you guys are dreaming (which I think you are. It's a known trait of artists actually), I mean you are dreaming in the sense that you believe, or grasp onto the idea that 'one day' people are going to support you and buy your music because of the industry changing. That just isn't going to happen in my opinion.

 

I do research and can assure you that the monopoly is searching for ways to 'fix' their little problem. This includes going after iTunes and pulling support from them which may very well happen. They have done it before and they will do it again. Music is the #1 manufactured product in the world that is used by consumers. The gov't controls the airwaves and awards it to a monopoly of corporations and are pretty much paid by another monopoly of corporations for music programming. This is what makes the music industry so shady. The gov't allows royalties to be paid for every spin so it keeps out the small independent radio stations.

 

About 1 in 5 people work for the gov't. Those people get huge salaies, pensions, and benefits. They control a lot of the wealth in America like you have no idea. The average American makes about $10/h. The upper middle class are usually gov't employees. Their retirement pensions are mutual funds which are stocks. The gov't and unions have a vested interest to make sure those stocks always rise so they create laws to PROTECT corporate monopolies and keep share prices rising. The gov't creates a monopoly for all corporations. Microsoft wants immigrants overseas, the gov't will change the rules just to help Microsoft hire cheap labor and stay profitable. When the gov't does anything in the music industry, what they are doing is helping protect share prices for their union members across the country. They don't want to see retirement and pensions funds go down for the public workers that control the wealth in America. The gov't will do whatever it takes to PROTECT the share prices. How do they do it? Well the gov't HELPS them create a monopoly to stay profitable and shut the little guy out.

 

The monopoly's, through the aid of the gov't will control the airwaves. There is no way around it. The monopoly's just get bigger, not smaller. There is now what, only 4 labels that control everything with no large independent labels (by that I mean Polygram etc.. not the mico indies).

 

If you guys think moms with kids are going to hunt around online for music then you guys are dreaming. The industry will get laws passed to protect them and keep the small players out, and most likely pull out of iTunes, control the internet sales, and continue with their monopoly. They are also going to go after the tour money and merchandise of the artist and are already doing this.

 

There's a lot of dreaming going right now. But if you think you are having a hard time getting noticed now, you haven't seen nothing yet.

 

Basically if you want to fill a stadium and have your dreams of fame and fortune come true, you pretty much need a major. They won't make it happen FOR you (only a select few artists get that treatment), but it just isn't possible without them as they control the airwaves. I'm sorry if you cling to the idea that one day people are going to hunt online for you music. It won't happen.

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hahahaha nice one!


iTunes top 25 OF ALL TIME


1. “I Gotta Feeling,” Black Eyed Peas


2. “Poker Face,” Lady Gaga


3. “Boom Boom Pow,” Black Eyed Peas


 

egg_on_face1_answer_1_xlarge.jpeg

 

That list pretty much sums up my local radios playlist lol ..

 

Again, keep dreaming like people are going to stream and hunt for your music.. the 'good' music. It aint going to happen. Wishful thinking.

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egg_on_face1_answer_1_xlarge.jpeg

That list pretty much sums up my local radios playlist lol ..


Again, keep dreaming like people are going to stream and hunt for your music.. the 'good' music. It aint going to happen. Wishful thinking.



I know what's played on radio and I know that stuff is OBVIOUSLY what you will see being bought on itunes but it has no bearing on real sales and real careers. There's your disconnect. Radio has always been mostly {censored}. Now less and less people are tuning in. These singles artists can't tour. Even the Top tier pop singles driven stars of today aren't generating a 1/10th the income they did 10 years ago. Good luck to Them. I disagree with your basic thesis and I guess time will tell who is right or wrong. I appreciate the discourse though. :thu:

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It IS a good discussion. What a brilliant thread! Who started this brilliant thread? :)

 

Sorry, I needed a little ego boost. I'm still stinging from the "Your music sounds like 70's sitcom themes" comments elsewhere. :0

 

No, I'm kidding. I'm not stinging. If anyone else wants to listen to my music and review it, have at it.

 

What were we talking about? Oh yeah, I remember...

 

Here are some points I'd like to make regarding this thread:

 

1. The majors aren't going to pull out of iTunes because it is the number one digital music store in the world. That makes no sense.

2. The majors aren't going to get Congress to pass laws to keep the small guy out, whatever that means (give examples, please?)

3. People who are 21 and under get their music primarily from the iPod, they barely listen to FM radio, and they don't watch music videos.

4. Pop music will continue to sell and the majors will continue to get smaller, until they reach a sustainable size, and they will continue on from there. CD Sales will do the same.

5. The majors are definitely signing 360 deals with artists to keep themselves relevant, but they currently suck at it. Given the right people, they'll get better.

6. Not everyone here is trying to build up a career out of original music and fill a stadium. Most of us here probably aren't.

7. Anyone who says what will or will not work is going to be proven wrong.

8. I can't think of any more right now.

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Here's what I think to those points Richard:

1. The majors aren't going to pull out of iTunes because it is the number one digital music store in the world. That makes no sense. Agreed
2. The majors aren't going to get Congress to pass laws to keep the small guy out, whatever that means (give examples, please?) Agreed
3. People who are 21 and under get their music primarily from the iPod, they barely listen to FM radio, and they don't watch music videos. Agreed
4. Pop music will continue to sell and the majors will continue to get smaller, until they reach a sustainable size, and they will continue on from there. CD Sales will do the same. Agree with the first point but disagree CD will continue but will become so small that it's a loss leader
5. The majors are definitely signing 360 deals with artists to keep themselves relevant, but they currently suck at it. Given the right people, they'll get better.Maybe
6. Not everyone here is trying to build up a career out of original music and fill a stadium. Most of us here probably aren't. True
7. Anyone who says what will or will not work is going to be proven wrong.
8. I can't think of any more right now. Most certainly!

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I mean you are dreaming in the sense that you believe, or grasp onto the idea that 'one day' people are going to support you and buy your music because of the industry changing.

 

 

Actually, I don't believe that at all. People buy my music and support me based on my playing out. I have never, ever believed the internet was the wave of the future. Still don't. Oh, I've sold a few CDs and downloads online, but that's just gravy to me. I think you're laboring under the assumption that we all want to be major label big. Nothing could be further from the truth for me. I'm not interested in major labels and haven't been for years. I think the stuff I write and perform reflects that.

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Sorry, I needed a little ego boost. I'm still stinging from the "Your music sounds like 70's sitcom themes" comments elsewhere.
:0
.

 

That wasn't meant as an insult, just a description of the music. You skipped past all the great praise for your songs and your potential radio quality song. I also said that it was 9/10 for what it is. The big problem was the genre (for downloads and live shows). The song structure can sound the same, but try to make it sound like another genre. That's what I would do.

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