Need advice on recording vocals from those that know how to get a full sound

[nfm420]

I am a singer-songwriter. I play all instruments in my project and record all in my home studio with Protools 7.0, the MBox, A Rode NTK mic for acoustics and vocals, POD for guitar sounds, Fruity Loops for drums, and have only the plugins that came with Protools software.

 

My question is, how do people get a thick/full sounding vocal track with only one track up the middle? My voice is not thin, or weak by any means- but I have always double or triple tracked my vocals. I have a few delay plugins and one reverb plugin. Nothing much. I have no external preamp, just the pre on the MBOX. But an obviously pro vocal mic.. Nothing special done to my room, just some extra insulation to a pretty large room (I think 18x20) or a lil smaller. Am I just missing a preamp and that's it? I've owned Manley pre's, Neve 1272, Avalon 737 sp, and an RNP. Though I tracked others through those pre's, I'm wondering what I'm missing.. People on garageband have been telling me my character is lost due to doubling track for vocals. Could some of you experienced guys give me some insight. I'd really appreciate. I have some people interested in my songs and I want to get the best out of what I have.. If upgrading in any area is necessary- please let me know where I should. Thanks in advance and sorry for the long post.

www.myspace.com/newlyformedmindset

[littledog]

Make sure you are close enough to the mic to take advantage of proximity effect.

 

Learn to use compression to keep the right amount of vocal presence when mixed with other instruments.

[nfm420]

Anyone else please?

[littledog]

You're welcome.

[nfm420]

Hey I'm sorry man.. Just was looking for more info. Thanks!

[gtrbass]

If you're using a Rode NTK:

 

1) Upgrade the stock chinese made 6922 Sovtek tube with an E-H Gold series tube and you'll notice a substantial improvement in low and presence and a richness in the highs. Order one from Tube depot.com that's been tested for low noise and microphonics. It's a simple and plug 'n play upgrade that anybody can do in three minutes flat.

 

2) Be sure to run a de-esser on the vocal tracks because the NTK is a somewhat silibant mic. The male "ess" is centered around 4.5Khz.

 

3) Insert a nice compression algorithm (like Waves Ren Comp) with about 3-4db of gain reduction.

 

Those three things alone will substantially improve your vocal sound. The addition of a tube or S/S Pre will add character, but that's a flavor, not necessarily the answer. You already have a tube in the signal path with the NTK.

 

BTW - Doubling and tripling a vocal track is an effect that should not be overused. Things can actually start to get diffused and sound "smaller" when you overdo it. Pan those tracks carefully when doubling or tripling the melody in unison.

[where02190]

If it's warmth your vocal lacks, position the NTK so you are singing over, not into it. I have two, and love them especially after replacing the stock tubes with Electro-Harmonix 6922EH, which reduced the high end presence peak a good 3db and warmed up the midbass.

 

Capture your chest resonance, not just the direct sound of your voice. Consider how Elvis sang, shoulders forward, head level (not hiked up toward a mic above him), and think of the depth his voice had. That is partly because of position. When you tilt your head back, you restrict air across your vocal chords, thus robbing yourself of power and depth. Stand relaxed, shoulders forward, and your head level, with the NTK aiming at your throat about 6-10 inches away. The result will be a warmer, fuller more natural tone that will sit well in a mix. A touch of good compression during mixdown, preferably analog, 160X, Distressor, etc., will put that vocal in your face with richness you can only imagine.

 

AFA De-essing, I'd recommend you work on mic placement rather than electronic correction after the fact. Singing over rather than into the NTK will take care of any sibiliance issues.

[Lee Knight]

And...

 

Pad up the area around the singer, you in this case. If you have doubts whether this is worth it, try this. Put a heavy blanket over your head like you were playing ghost with the mic in there as well. Record a little singing. Does it sound better? If it does, put up packing blackets, sleeping bags, 703 board, foam, whatever. Directly behind you, to your sides, over your head.

[UstadKhanAli]

The entire signal chain makes a difference. The mic preamp and the converters make a huge difference as well. I'm getting a really thick, full vocal sound, but it's a combination of a great mic, great mic preamp, and great converters. And it sure took a long time to really get this together. I'm using a Lawson L251 into a Neve Portico into an Apogee Rosetta 800 converter. It's thick without needing to compress, although as others have mentioned, mic positioning and compression can definitely make your vocal sound even thicker.

 

Something else that can make your vocal thicker would be detuning the vocal by a couple of cents up and a couple of cents down and then panning those left and right. Eventide is really good at this, but you can do it in your DAW as well by copying your vocal track to other tracks and then detuning those copied tracks. This is the vocal effect that Peter Gabriel uses on his recordings and live.

[nfm420]

I've heard on here eq makes a big difference. Unfortunately I don't know where to start as far as frequencies to cut or boost. I know it's different for certain voices, mics, pre's, and rooms. But is there anywhere I can read up on the art of eq'ing? As far as compression, I usually use a 2:1 to 3:1 ratio, about -25 db--32 db threshold, and leave the attack and release where they are set on my digi plugin compressor. I can track with it and it doesn't print unless I use the audio sweet and consolidate or bounce the song that way. It sucks though, I only have one reverb plugin, and a short delay, medium delay, and long delay. I can use the detune technique in my vocal tuning program- melodyne so I will try that. Thanks everyone!

[UstadKhanAli]

EQ: You can sweep around the low mids and see what frequencies boost the voice nicely. I also like adding a little air to the vocals around 12k-15k, but I don't know if that necessarily makes it thicker - I just like it for vocals sometimes.

 

~~~~~

 

REVERB/DELAY: A short reverb or delay can definitely help thicken up vocals.

 

Having only one reverb plug-in is fine, as long as it's usable (or better!).

 

It might help you to know that with a lot of DAWs, you can use their S/PDIF I/O to hook up a hardware reverb. I have a TC Electronic M300 hooked up, so I have an extra reverb. I don't have to really work the CPU extra, and I have two kinds of reverb because of that. And I'm always getting compliments on my reverb sound, and the M300, while it's a very nice budget reverb, ain't even the nicest reverb unit out there.

 

In a pinch, you can also run your vocal out to an analog delay pedal or delay hardware unit, monitoring back and adjusting until you get a great delay sound, and then simply print it. Low-tech, but it works. Then you can control the volume, using the recorded delay as another track. Obviously, you can do this with reverb units as well.

[where02190]

For light vocal compression, set the threshold so it kicks down 3-4 db on the highest peaks, with a slow attack and a fast release, with a 2:1 ratio. For heavier compression increase the ratio. Don't speed the attack up much or you'll lose the initial impact of the vocal.

[nfm420]

Is it really true that most of you don't know how to make a full sounding vocal track with a good mic like a Rode NTK? I explained I don't have a class A pre (just the one in the MBOX) and several people gave me good advice on effect. I just recorded a track and got a great main vocal, auto tuned that- and copied to more of that track and eq'd, compressed, and put different effects on them. When it's done, I'll give the link to check it out so you all can critique. I've been boosting 100 HZ at .7 Q, cutting 200-250 at 1.0 Q, boosting 5 k at 1 q, boosting at 10 k at 1.0 q, and boosting at 15 K at 1 Q. Seems to add a decent amount of presence and clarity.

[MarkGifford-1]

 

Originally posted by nfm420 I just recorded a track and got a great main vocal, auto tuned that- and copied to more of that track and eq'd, compressed, and put different effects on them. When it's done, I'll give the link to check it out so you all can critique. I've been boosting 100 HZ at .7 Q, cutting 200-250 at 1.0 Q, boosting 5 k at 1 q, boosting at 10 k at 1.0 q, and boosting at 15 K at 1 Q. Seems to add a decent amount of presence and clarity.

 

 

I think you'll find the answer to your question in there... No offense, but you didn't get a "great vocal" if you had to do all that repair work on it.

 

First, lose the Auto-tune. You're not paying by the hour, get it right. Get lessons if you have to - there is no downside to learning to sing properly. This is a pet peeve of mine, because lately it seems that ALL I do is tune vocals. Seriously, would you work with a guitarist who couldn't play in tune, or a drummer whose tempo fluctuated wildly?

 

If you want to use doubling to increase the emphasis on certain phrases, do a real double, which means record another pass, trying to duplicate the first one as closely as possible. Then mix it with the same compression and FX as the lead vocal, but about 6dB down. It's an effect however, and if your music requires it, that's how to do it. It won't save a bad vocal. OK, maybe it will...

 

Use as much compression as you want. I'll hit a lead vocal VERY hard in a rock mix. Sometimes 8-10db at 10:1, with a Distressor. Or more, w/a Purple MC77. Sounds great, if that's what the song calls for. Sometimes I don't compress at all. That sounds great, too.

 

As far as EQ, I may brighten it up a little bit w/a few dB of shelving at maybe 8-10K.

 

If it needs to be warmed up, I'll add a little gentle peaking at around 3-400hZ, altho w/a male voice, it can get too big and woofy quickly down there. What sounds good solo'ed may not work in the track.

 

It shouldn't need much more than that. If it does, you've got to change something up front - the singer/technique, the mic, or the position, being the most important. Pres/converters not so much, IMHO.

 

There are great mics, with difering characteristics, in about every price range. You need to find the one that is most flattering to your voice, at the highest price you can afford. Altho once in a while, we'll pick a MXL over one of our Soundelux or Neumanns, most cases not. Mics are truly one thing where you usually get what you pay for.

 

Good Luck,

 

MG

[nfm420]

Originally posted by MarkGifford-1 I think you'll find the answer to your question in there... No offense, but you didn't get a "great vocal" if you had to do all that repair work on it. First, lose the Auto-tune. You're not paying by the hour, get it right. Get lessons if you have to - there is no downside to learning to sing properly. This is a pet peeve of mine, because lately it seems that ALL I do is tune vocals. Seriously, would you work with a guitarist who couldn't play in tune, or a drummer whose tempo fluctuated wildly? If you want to use doubling to increase the emphasis on certain phrases, do a real double, which means record another pass, trying to duplicate the first one as closely as possible. Then mix it with the same compression and FX as the lead vocal, but about 6dB down. It's an effect however, and if your music requires it, that's how to do it. It won't save a bad vocal. OK, maybe it will... Use as much compression as you want. I'll hit a lead vocal VERY hard in a rock mix. Sometimes 8-10db at 10:1, with a Distressor. Or more, w/a Purple MC77. Sounds great, if that's what the song calls for. Sometimes I don't compress at all. That sounds great, too. As far as EQ, I may brighten it up a little bit w/a few dB of shelving at maybe 8-10K. If it needs to be warmed up, I'll add a little gentle peaking at around 3-400hZ, altho w/a male voice, it can get too big and woofy quickly down there. What sounds good solo'ed may not work in the track. It shouldn't need much more than that. If it does, you've got to change something up front - the singer/technique, the mic, or the position, being the most important. Pres/converters not so much, IMHO. There are great mics, with difering characteristics, in about every price range. You need to find the one that is most flattering to your voice, at the highest price you can afford. Altho once in a while, we'll pick a MXL over one of our Soundelux or Neumanns, most cases not. Mics are truly one thing where you usually get what you pay for. Good Luck, You sure about that bud? I know my voice capabilities. I am not Brittany Spears needing a ton of auto tune. Go to tweak sounds.com He admits, even the best singers most often need to have some tuning in some parts. I have a Rode NTK in a non treated room, with limited plugins, Protools 7.0 software, MBOX 1 pre's, and nothing else. I am a pretty good singer. I don't rely on auto tune to make my stuff sound great. Most of my songs don't have it at all, yet sounded thin without doubling the whole track or tripling. Give me advice on that please. I sure as hell don't have converters or a good mic pre for that matter. Someday, but not now. MG

 

[MarkGifford-1]

 

Originally posted by nfm420 You sure about that bud? Most of my songs don't have it at all, yet sounded thin without doubling the whole track or tripling. Give me advice on that please. I sure as hell don't have converters or a good mic pre for that matter. Someday, but not now.

 

 

Did you read the rest of my post?

 

I addressed what I perceived as problems and offered valid solutions to those problems, as did many others on both forums.

 

Once again, Cliff's Notes Version:

 

1. Try a different mic position.

 

2. Try a different mic.

 

3. Try adjusting your singing technique.

 

4. Tweak compression and EQ.

 

4. If all this fails, accept the fact that you may just have a thin-sounding voice. Many GREAT singers don't have a lot of body in their voice. Not the end of the world, play the hand you're dealt.

 

Your bud,

 

MG

[UstadKhanAli]

Originally posted by nfm420 Is it really true that most of you don't know how to make a full sounding vocal track with a good mic like a Rode NTK?

 

 

Who are you addressing here?

[littledog]

You sort of brushed off the advice, but have you gotten around to trying singing closer to the mic yet?

 

Proximity effect can be a powerful fattener.

[where02190]

 

Originally posted by nfm420 Is it really true that most of you don't know how to make a full sounding vocal track with a good mic like a Rode NTK? I explained I don't have a class A pre (just the one in the MBOX) and several people gave me good advice on effect. I just recorded a track and got a great main vocal, auto tuned that- and copied to more of that track and eq'd, compressed, and put different effects on them. When it's done, I'll give the link to check it out so you all can critique. I've been boosting 100 HZ at .7 Q, cutting 200-250 at 1.0 Q, boosting 5 k at 1 q, boosting at 10 k at 1.0 q, and boosting at 15 K at 1 Q. Seems to add a decent amount of presence and clarity.

 

 

IS it really true that you're an ignorant ass?

 

Try shoving that NTK up your ass and choke on your M-box then.

 

Have fun trying to get advise here in the future.

[nfm420]

 

Originally posted by where02190 IS it really true that you're an ignorant ass? Try shoving that NTK up your ass and choke on your M-box then. Have fun trying to get advise here in the future.

 

 

Wow. That's nice. I thanked you several time in my posts and now you call me an ignorant ass. I tried everthing you told me. What the {censored} is your problem? Do you not get that it's me in the other recording forum thanking where's? Shove the NTK up my ass huh. If you saw me in person, you wouldn't be saying that.

[EccentRick]

Troll.

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Originally posted by nfm420 Is it really true that most of you don't know how to make a full sounding vocal track with a good mic like a Rode NTK?

 

 

Again, who are you addressing here?

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Originally posted by nfm420 Wow. That's nice. I thanked you several time in my posts and now you call me an ignorant ass.

 

 

Wow, that's nice, you insult most of the people who tried to help you out and "act surprised" when people get annoyed.

[A_Str8]

 

Originally posted by nfm420 Wow. That's nice. I thanked you several time in my posts and now you call me an ignorant ass. I tried everthing you told me. What the {censored} is your problem? Do you not get that it's me in the other recording forum thanking where's? Shove the NTK up my ass huh. If you saw me in person, you wouldn't be saying that.

 

I'm pretty sure Where saw you thanking him, just like he saw you acting like an ignorant ass in some of your other posts. Harmony Central does not revolve around your question and insulting the forum because every member did not come running to answer it is unjustified. I'm sure that despite your gratitude towards Where, he was put off by your general ungratefulness and attitude that was directed to the rest of the forum. This may not be one big happy family, but we generally don't talk to each other like that around here.

[nfm420]

I don't know where anyone gets off saying I insulted them. Or didn't take their advice. Several times I thanked those who helped. You guys got me all wrong here. I didn't diss anyone. Especially not Phil.. All it was, was me being surprised that I wasn't getting answers from that many people. But as time went on I did. So Where comes in and tells me to shove my mic up my ass. And I'm the one with the attitude?