drum mics you know the shit?

[littledog]

Originally posted by Han If there's any need to explain how to tune the drums I'll gladly do.

Please do! It might end up being the single most useful post ever!

[Han]

Okay, here's a very simple way to tune the drums. You must realise that there are just a few tones where the shell will resonate like it should. The best way to find that tone is taking off the heads and tap at the shell and find that tone on the piano.

The (new) heads are on the drums and you've tightened the lugs and you've pushed the heads down firmly to make them 'sit' well.

Now put your finger in the center of the resonant head and tap softly with your tuningkey near the lugs, you'll hear overtones only. Tune them so that the tone is the same near every lug, the head will produce one tone now instead of several tones at the same time.

Tune the resonant head a little higher or lower than the batter head, whatever you like best, an upward decay or a downward decay.

This works for every drum, even kick and snare.

[where02190]

Originally posted by Def_Pearl_Pilot I want to get a point of reference for where my stuff is and where it could/should be.

 

 

Go into the room the drums are in, and listen to them. That's your point of reference.

[witesol]

can you elaborate on the relationship between finding the shell's note on the piano to tuning the drum head?

[Han]

Originally posted by witesol can you elaborate on the relationship between finding the shell's note on the piano to tuning the drum head?

 

 

Each shell will have a pitch of it's own, which you can hear if you tap the empty shell. Find that tone on the piano, write it down somewhere and tune the heads near that tone/pitch.

[littledog]

Thanks Han!

Not being a drummer, I always just assumed tuning was some sort of arcane magic.

You da man! :thu: :thu:

[Majoria]

There are many in the drum forum that can teach you the tricks to the trade. Sound engineers should have an idea and many do have some experience and knowledge in tuning but a nothing beats a true expert. As a drummer and sound guy, I hold the drummer responsible for making his/her kit sound good. If it sounds like garbage, then so will the album or concert - let that be their lesson.

Also, there are countless threads already in the drum forum on drum tuning and shell pitch.

[Han]

Originally posted by Majoria There are many in the drum forum that can teach you the tricks to the trade. Sound engineers should have an idea and many do have some experience and knowledge in tuning but a nothing beats a true expert. As a drummer and sound guy, I hold the drummer responsible for making his/her kit sound good. If it sounds like garbage, then so will the album or concert - let that be their lesson. Also, there are countless threads already in the drum forum on drum tuning and shell pitch.

 

 

How right you are! But the problem is that they will blame you for it.

[littledog]

Well, I still thank Han. My probelm is I'm not brave enough to venture into the drum forum!

[where02190]

Any particular drum has many resonant notes, and can be tuned in a variety of different tones, depending on heads used and the relative pitch between them, as well as the tuning of the rest of the kit.

Consider the tuning of a piano, every string is relative to all the others. A drum kit is the same principle. Thus the majority of engineers use minimal mics, capturing the kit as one big instrument in the room, rather than a bunch of little ones. IMHO the best drum sounds come from the least amount of mics.

[littledog]

Are you saying that a piano would sound just as good with every string tuned down a fourth?

On another point, I agree with your recommendation to learn to mic a drum kit with a minimal amount of mics. But I'm not sure that a survey of top engineers would necessarily bear out your contention that the majority of commercial records are being made with minimal mic'ing.

I've heard fantastic sounds when good engineers use minimal mics, but I've also heard fantastic sounds when good engineers use a dozen or more. I think the key is the term "good engineer", which by definition means they are not limited to only one possible technique in achieving a goal.

[PKO]

I just mixed this tune yesterday.I tracked the drum's about a month ago.I used about 16 mic's on this kit................double micing the snare,kick(front and beater),also using 4 room mics.My drum/main tracking room has no accoustic treatment other then carpet on the walls and floors.I use relatively cheap mics..........nothing exotic.This is a pretty hot mix and imho the drums came out slammin.I alway's get a good drum sound............thanks to my UAD-1 and Waves SSL 4000.

http://media.putfile.com/Lifeline-55

[Phil O'Keefe]

As a drummer and sound guy, I hold the drummer responsible for making his/her kit sound good. If it sounds like garbage, then so will the album or concert - let that be their lesson.

Ultimately, any musician has a huge part to play in what their "sound" is going to be like. As an engineer, I can agree with your points to a degree. However, as a producer, I'd rather they leared the lesson by being told about it in advance by me instead of having to experience it for themselves. As a business owner, engineer and producer, I'd rather see them sound as good as possible - which means I'll try to take the time to tell people the importance of taking care of things like this in advance, before they come into the studio, or pay for a tech to be on hand at the sessions. But if none of that happens, it's on me to make the best of it that I can... that's part of what I get paid to do. Which means that while I may not be Ross Garfield (a well known and very talented LA area drum tech / expert) when it comes to tuning or setting up a kit, I did think it was important to learn how to tune one.

[where02190]

Originally posted by PKO I just mixed this tune yesterday.I tracked the drum's about a month ago.I used about 16 mic's on this kit................double micing the snare,kick(front and beater),also using 4 room mics.My drum/main tracking room has no accoustic treatment other then carpet on the walls and floors.I use relatively cheap mics..........nothing exotic.This is a pretty hot mix and imho the drums came out slammin.I alway's get a good drum sound............thanks to my UAD-1 and Waves SSL 4000. http://media.putfile.com/Lifeline-55

Link won't play here.

I've actually recorded a piano tuned down a 1/3rd, and yes if done correctly, which takes weeks, it will sound fine.

[witesol]

Originally posted by PKO I just mixed this tune yesterday.I tracked the drum's about a month ago.I used about 16 mic's on this kit................double micing the snare,kick(front and beater),also using 4 room mics.My drum/main tracking room has no accoustic treatment other then carpet on the walls and floors.I use relatively cheap mics..........nothing exotic.This is a pretty hot mix and imho the drums came out slammin.I alway's get a good drum sound............thanks to my UAD-1 and Waves SSL 4000. http://media.putfile.com/Lifeline-55

I got it to play. Nice high energy stuff. singer has some strong pipes. In simply reading the post a few red flags go up; 16 mics, no acoustic treatments and inexpensive mics(which can mean different things to some people). That also means there had to be 16 mic pre's. The guy was playing his heart out for sure but those issues indeed detract from this recording in my opinion. Maybe someone else can offer a more detailed opinion...

[littledog]

Originally posted by where02190 I've actually recorded a piano tuned down a 1/3rd, and yes if done correctly, which takes weeks, it will sound fine.

 

 

This is fascinating! Would you mind providing a few more details, like what kind of music this was for, and how the decision came to be made to do this, and was this your piano? Did you feel the final result was worth the experiment? Was it a major or minor third? How would you describe the timbral result?

 

And were the artists willing to pay for multiple tunings both before and after to restabilize the piano?

 

I don't think I'd let anyone do that to my Steinway. You're a brave lad...!

[where02190]

This was back in the 80's, and it was an old upright the artist had purchased for a particular recording project. He was a tuner as well, so the cost was only that of the piano. I believe it was a minor 3rd.

As I recall he took the better part of a year downtuning it. I wish I had a copy today, I tried searching online but found nothing. For all I know he might be dead at this point, he was in his late 50's at the time, and a massive chain smoker.

It sounded very nice tonally, with of course the warmth of the downtuning to assist.

[littledog]

Thanks!

[PKO]

Originally posted by witesol I got it to play. Nice high energy stuff. singer has some strong pipes. In simply reading the post a few red flags go up; 16 mics, no acoustic treatments and inexpensive mics(which can mean different things to some people). That also means there had to be 16 mic pre's. The guy was playing his heart out for sure but those issues indeed detract from this recording in my opinion. Maybe someone else can offer a more detailed opinion...

LOL.................and what exactly are you trying to say??????I have 28 mic pre's and have tracked 28 at once numerous times testing all kind's of mic configurations.

As far as your red flags.............here is my studio dude:

http://www.alpinesound.net/

Look at my tracking room pics.................just carpeting on my floors and walls.I have some treatment in my CR but very little.I run a small studio that get's the job done and then some.Post your recording clip's please.

[Phil O'Keefe]

PKO, I listened to your clip, and checked out your website. Nice job on the recording, and your studio looks nice. IMO, a little bit more acoustic treatment would give you an even better environment to record in, and may make your (already good) recordings sound even better. I don't want to try to speak for witesol, but that's how I took his post... I don't think he intended it as a competitive thing or an attack on you.

BTW, FWIW, witesol the chief audio engineer at the Fender Center in Corona CA, and also owns his own studio, so it's not exactly like he's an inxperienced noob or something like that.

[PKO]

Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe PKO, I listened to your clip, and checked out your website. Nice job on the recording, and your studio looks nice. IMO, a little bit more acoustic treatment would give you an even better environment to record in, and may make your (already good) recordings sound even better. I don't want to try to speak for witesol, but that's how I took his post... I don't think he intended it as a competitive thing or an attack on you. BTW, FWIW, witesol the chief audio engineer at the Fender Center in Corona CA, and also owns his own studio, so it's not exactly like he's an inxperienced noob or something like that.

That's quite alright.Just did'nt know where he was coming from.As far as treating the room,right now i'm actually getting the sound's that I want without sugar coating anything with ambience plugins.I'm actually afraid to {censored} with anything if you know what I mean.If it ain't broke................you know the rest.The wood paneling made a huge difference(forgot to mention that)with the overall "depth" of the room sound,especially for drums.If the damn city would have let me build my studio the way I originally intended then it would have been 40% bigger then the 740 sq ft it is now.Would have left me alot more room to play with.

[witesol]

PKO, my apologies to you for coming off condescending, wasn't trying to. Thanks to Phil for trying to make me look more respectable

I did look at your studio. It's really cool, very nice job. I did like what you posted and yea, you made the effort to post something for everyone to comment. I will not deny that in simply reading the post and not listening my recording engineering red flags went up, as they probably would with yourself faced with a similar situation. Perhaps I listened with biased ears, looking for the very sonic issues that your stated combination might pose. I offered no explanation or tempered opinion as to what is was that I heard or thought. I am also of unknown experience, post count aside.

..to back up a bit. It's difficult sometimes to asscertain what has been done in a production by simply listening to the end result. Obviously there can be things in the tracking phase. Mic'ing, mics, acoustics and just plain arrangement and performance. Then there is mixing, then mastering then mode of delivery; MP3 at what bit rate, etc..
Even through all of that there remains much evidence of how something was mic'ed and in what space it was captured.

Obviously you are well past the beginner level of technique and experience. When you posture a post like you did, you almost set yourself up to a standard of quality. Almost like "I started with these handicaps and look at how great it came out". I've been guilty of that many times, bragging about how I did something like this and look how cool... (I remember sitting down with respected grammy award winning songwriter years ago and proudly bragging how "I wrote this song in like an hour" sort of thing. He say's "well, it sounds like it"...ouch).
An untreated basically rectangular box(from what I can see) with that many mics is more than likely a handicap for a bunch of reasons. That's not to say you used all the mics that were tracked. It doesn't take into account that there could be some non-obvious parallel surface interruptions or bass traps like bookcases or a sofa. When you add in less expensive mic's tendencies of hyped high frequencies and the additional sometimes overlooked aspect of hitting a ITB digital mix buss with that much information, you are indeed starting with some handicaps. ..which doesn't mean a whole lot if number One, you know and understand the potential issues up front and number Two, have the ears and monitoring environment to hear when something weird is happening. I specifically listened to the drums and heard washed out stereo imagery, phase cancellation and a lot of upper mid/lower high-end information fighting with vocals and guitar. I didn't hear a lot of warmth which could be simple EQ or something more like nulls and modes in the room. By the way, I did listen to nearly every clip on your site and looked at all the studio pics. Sometimes it's difficult to know what is (to paraphrase you) broke and in need of fixing when we work in near vacuums sometimes, recording, listening and continually working in our own places, using our M.O.s...maybe even making a decent living at it as well.

I've yapped enough I'm afraid. It doesn't change the fact that I opened my virtual pie hole with unsolicited opinion. For that I apologize. I will say that a recordist, writer, player won't learn and grow without someone shaking up their world once in a while. LIke phil said, it's not a competition. I surely don't like to hear any opposing opinion to my creations, especially when I was sure it was good. After licking my wounds often I've learned something.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Hey, if the room's working for you, and you like the way it sounds, then I can certainly understand not wanting to mess with it!

BTW, one question for you if I may - I noticed in one of your pictures that you had a Sennheiser 421 on a guitar cabinet... but it's pointed at the floor instead of the amp. Did you do that intentionally? It reminded me of the stories I've read about the guitar sound on Dire Straits "Money For Nothing", where the mic had fallen and was pointed at the floor and that is how they wound up with "that sound".

[PKO]

Originally posted by witesol PKO, my apologies to you for coming off condescending, wasn't trying to. Thanks to Phil for trying to make me look more respectable I did look at your studio. It's really cool, very nice job. I did like what you posted and yea, you made the effort to post something for everyone to comment. I will not deny that in simply reading the post and not listening my recording engineering red flags went up, as they probably would with yourself faced with a similar situation. Perhaps I listened with biased ears, looking for the very sonic issues that your stated combination might pose. I offered no explanation or tempered opinion as to what is was that I heard or thought. I am also of unknown experience, post count aside. ..to back up a bit. It's difficult sometimes to asscertain what has been done in a production by simply listening to the end result. Obviously there can be things in the tracking phase. Mic'ing, mics, acoustics and just plain arrangement and performance. Then there is mixing, then mastering then mode of delivery; MP3 at what bit rate, etc.. Even through all of that there remains much evidence of how something was mic'ed and in what space it was captured. Obviously you are well past the beginner level of technique and experience. When you posture a post like you did, you almost set yourself up to a standard of quality. Almost like "I started with these handicaps and look at how great it came out". I've been guilty of that many times, bragging about how I did something like this and look how cool... (I remember sitting down with respected grammy award winning songwriter years ago and proudly bragging how "I wrote this song in like an hour" sort of thing. He say's "well, it sounds like it"...ouch). An untreated basically rectangular box(from what I can see) with that many mics is more than likely a handicap for a bunch of reasons. That's not to say you used all the mics that were tracked. It doesn't take into account that there could be some non-obvious parallel surface interruptions or bass traps like bookcases or a sofa. When you add in less expensive mic's tendencies of hyped high frequencies and the additional sometimes overlooked aspect of hitting a ITB digital mix buss with that much information, you are indeed starting with some handicaps. ..which doesn't mean a whole lot if number One, you know and understand the potential issues up front and number Two, have the ears and monitoring environment to hear when something weird is happening. I specifically listened to the drums and heard washed out stereo imagery, phase cancellation and a lot of upper mid/lower high-end information fighting with vocals and guitar. I didn't hear a lot of warmth which could be simple EQ or something more like nulls and modes in the room. By the way, I did listen to nearly every clip on your site and looked at all the studio pics. Sometimes it's difficult to know what is (to paraphrase you) broke and in need of fixing when we work in near vacuums sometimes, recording, listening and continually working in our own places, using our M.O.s...maybe even making a decent living at it as well. I've yapped enough I'm afraid. It doesn't change the fact that I opened my virtual pie hole with unsolicited opinion. For that I apologize. I will say that a recordist, writer, player won't learn and grow without someone shaking up their world once in a while. LIke phil said, it's not a competition. I surely don't like to hear any opposing opinion to my creations, especially when I was sure it was good. After licking my wounds often I've learned something.

I know some of the clips on my site are'nt as good as they could be..................a few were 30 minute mixes because 90% of my local client's never calculate mix time into their block session that they paid for.They figure they bought 8 hours so they'll track the entire 8 hours and expect me to do a lengthy mixdown on my own time.Basically I started doing this recording thing for fun out of my house.When over the past few year's by word of mouth I was getting jobs constantly so I decided to build me a bigger "recording facility" on my property.I still do have a day job i've been at for 13 years but with my studio on the weekends and at nights i've over doubled my yearly income.Alot of band's that come to me have horror stories and mixes to go along with them of their experiences in top pro studios here in town that charged them over 3 times what I charge and gave them horrible result's.Mostly from using interns and not the pro engineer they expected for their money.I think I really do give my client's a good bang for their buck and I will go beyond the call of duty as much as I can to make their recordings sound the best they can be.My ultimate would be a facility 2-3 times the size of mine with a nice wooden floor drum room and every sq ft tuned for sound.Maybe someday.

[PKO]

Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe Hey, if the room's working for you, and you like the way it sounds, then I can certainly understand not wanting to mess with it! BTW, one question for you if I may - I noticed in one of your pictures that you had a Sennheiser 421 on a guitar cabinet... but it's pointed at the floor instead of the amp. Did you do that intentionally? It reminded me of the stories I've read about the guitar sound on Dire Straits "Money For Nothing", where the mic had fallen and was pointed at the floor and that is how they wound up with "that sound".

Usually I have the 421 right in the middle of the cone,3-6 inches out.I'm sure that pic was from a session done day's before and i'm a lazy ass and just leave my mics in place until close to the next session.

I've been having great success lately triple micing my gtr cabs with the 421,609,and sm57.Blend those babies together and it sound's pretty thick and defined with no mud..............unless it's a nu-metal dude who love's mud(most of'em do).Also i'll run a full stack with 2 different brand cabs/speakers side by side..............about 10-15 feet apart using that mic combination(6 mics total with 2 cabs)with sweet results,but it's alot of set-up time compared to the ole 57 jammed into the 1 cone of the 1 cab.Oh................and I love the Pod XT.All of the "Rock Addix" clips on my site were done with the XT.Those were the 30 minute mixes though but someday I might for my own leisure mix them correctly.PODS RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!