Can we talk Microphones?

[D Charles]

Hi, I'm David, a pushing 50 years old former band leader. I've spent a huge chunk of my life on the road singing and playing guitar but I've always been a songwriter/recorder kind of guy at home. I've got an okay mic locker but I'm missing out on some of the basic mic groups. I've got large and small diaphram condensers, small diaphram dynamics, but I don't have a ribbon, a large diaphram dynamic, or a tube mic. I'd like to, so perhaps you cats can help me get my wish list straight.

 

I used to own a Sennheiser 441 which was my main recording mic back in the 80's. I sold it in a package deal to a buddy and used the cash to buy an AKG 414B/ULS used, way back then. I really miss the 441 but you folks that have tried a bunch of them, 'if you could only own one....;' would you choose a 441, 421, SM7, RE20 or something I haven't thought of? I used to get some great vocals out of the 441 using a graphic eq. I know most people don't approve of them ever since George Massenburg but it worked great for me. I'd use it for vox, acoustic instruments, guitar amp and maybe kick drum.

 

I think I'd like a ribbon for my sax as well as my sweetie's singing who really liked the Beyers back in the day. My gut says the 260 because it's got a roll off so vox could work close. I don't really trust the Communist China mics, but correct me if I'm wrong.

 

The only tube mic I've ever sang over was a Brauner VM-1. My best bud brought his down and I got to try it for a weekend. Honestly on rockers and even pop stuff, I couldn't tell a world of difference from some of my mics, but on intimate acoustic/ vocal stuff, it's the first time my voice sounded to me; 'big studio'. I recorded a whole album worth of stuff on it (I sing exactly half the lead vocals so around six songs) and I only kept one take. It was high quality and all but not better than a better take on a lesser mic. (I did this in a hurry on a couple of nights and afternoons).

 

Anyway, I've got a few pre's around but the Brauner just loved the Grace 101. They seemed to be a happy match compared to my other ones. I'd love to find a tube mic much less expensive obviously that approached those rich mids I got on acoustic/vocal type tracks. I'm hoping that some other tube mic could give me an approximation of what the VM-1 gave me. Don't get me wrong, I don't expect an MXL Mogami or NTK to sound like the Brauner, but do tube mics have some sort of magic in the mids? Guess I just mainly want something that's in that direction compared to my other mics.

 

Thanks in advance for all opinions.

[seaneldon]

try finding a used sony c37a if you want a tube mic with serious midrange cream on a vocal. cheaper than that would be that mojave mic, i suppose. any less expensive and you're dealing with what i consider (and i may be a snob, but maybe that's where you want opinions to come from!) to be not-so-hot compared to what else is out there.

 

you have an expensive taste if you like the VM1. you've gotta deal with it, and sometimes you've gotta bite the bullet and go for it. i loved the VM1. we didn't buy it though. we bought the VM1-KHE instead. goes to show you exactly what i'm talking about.

[GZsound]

 

Originally posted by D Charles Hi, I'm David, a pushing 50 years old former band leader. I've spent a huge chunk of my life on the road singing and playing guitar but I've always been a songwriter/recorder kind of guy at home. I've got an okay mic locker but I'm missing out on some of the basic mic groups. I've got large and small diaphram condensers, small diaphram dynamics, but I don't have a ribbon, a large diaphram dynamic, or a tube mic. I'd like to, so perhaps you cats can help me get my wish list straight. I used to own a Sennheiser 441 which was my main recording mic back in the 80's. I sold it in a package deal to a buddy and used the cash to buy an AKG 414B/ULS used, way back then. I really miss the 441 but you folks that have tried a bunch of them, 'if you could only own one....;' would you choose a 441, 421, SM7, RE20 or something I haven't thought of? I used to get some great vocals out of the 441 using a graphic eq. I know most people don't approve of them ever since George Massenburg but it worked great for me. I'd use it for vox, acoustic instruments, guitar amp and maybe kick drum. I think I'd like a ribbon for my sax as well as my sweetie's singing who really liked the Beyers back in the day. My gut says the 260 because it's got a roll off so vox could work close. I don't really trust the Communist China mics, but correct me if I'm wrong. The only tube mic I've ever sang over was a Brauner VM-1. My best bud brought his down and I got to try it for a weekend. Honestly on rockers and even pop stuff, I couldn't tell a world of difference from some of my mics, but on intimate acoustic/ vocal stuff, it's the first time my voice sounded to me; 'big studio'. I recorded a whole album worth of stuff on it (I sing exactly half the lead vocals so around six songs) and I only kept one take. It was high quality and all but not better than a better take on a lesser mic. (I did this in a hurry on a couple of nights and afternoons). Anyway, I've got a few pre's around but the Brauner just loved the Grace 101. They seemed to be a happy match compared to my other ones. I'd love to find a tube mic much less expensive obviously that approached those rich mids I got on acoustic/vocal type tracks. I'm hoping that some other tube mic could give me an approximation of what the VM-1 gave me. Don't get me wrong, I don't expect an MXL Mogami or NTK to sound like the Brauner, but do tube mics have some sort of magic in the mids? Guess I just mainly want something that's in that direction compared to my other mics. Thanks in advance for all opinions.

 

 

I use a Beyer M260 on my sax. I bought it new in 1975 and it does not have the low frequency roll off. It sound great and indeed works on lots of other instruments.

 

You can have Beyer remove the low frequency rolloff circuit if you pick up a newer one.

 

There are a lot of quality LD mics available right now that might fit your needs. Shure KSM 32, AT 4047, Rode NT2, etc. and even some very inexpensive mics get great reviews

 

The AT 4047 gets really good reviews as a very warm sounding mic. I have used them several times with good resulty. They aren't tube mics, but sure sound "rich" and nice.

 

I saw one on my local Craigslist for $300 last week.

[where02190]

An NTK retubed with an Electro-Harmonix 6922EH (cost about $25) can sound pretty amazing....

 

Careful closemicing vocals with ribbons, one good plosive and the miic is history.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Originally posted by D Charles Hi, I'm David, a pushing 50 years old former band leader. I've spent a huge chunk of my life on the road singing and playing guitar but I've always been a songwriter/recorder kind of guy at home. Hi David, and welcome to the forum. I've got an okay mic locker but I'm missing out on some of the basic mic groups. I've got large and small diaphram condensers, small diaphram dynamics, but I don't have a ribbon, a large diaphram dynamic, or a tube mic. I'd like to, so perhaps you cats can help me get my wish list straight. I used to own a Sennheiser 441 which was my main recording mic back in the 80's. I sold it in a package deal to a buddy and used the cash to buy an AKG 414B/ULS used, way back then. I really miss the 441 but you folks that have tried a bunch of them, 'if you could only own one....;' would you choose a 441, 421, SM7, RE20 or something I haven't thought of? I used to get some great vocals out of the 441 using a graphic eq. I know most people don't approve of them ever since George Massenburg but it worked great for me. I'd use it for vox, acoustic instruments, guitar amp and maybe kick drum. The Sennheiser 441 is a fine mic. I don't think I've ever heard George dissing them, but maybe I missed something.. can you fill me in? Anyway, if I had to limit myself to a single general purpose large diaphragm mic, I'd stick with an EV RE20. It's a great mic IMHO. But as always, that's a personal preference thing. I do like the MD421, but I don't think it's quite as versatile. Depending on what you want to use it for, there may be things you might like better than the RE20, but for me, it works great on a wide range of sources - kick drums, voiceovers and vocals, sax, brass, guitar and bass cabinets... IMO, one of the mikes that really deserves the description of "classic". I think I'd like a ribbon for my sax as well as my sweetie's singing who really liked the Beyers back in the day. My gut says the 260 because it's got a roll off so vox could work close. I don't really trust the Communist China mics, but correct me if I'm wrong. I don't have a lot of experience with the M.I.C. ribbons. All of the ribbons I currently own are American or German (RCA, Shure and Beyer). Royer of course, makes killer ribbon mikes, but they're not exactly inexpensive. But the hype about them is, IMO, very true. Great mikes! Groove Tubes is supposed to be coming out with a new ribbon mic soon that looks promising, but I still have not heard it yet. Of all the ribbons I have, my personal favorite is the Beyer M160. It's more expensive than the M260 (two ribbon elements instead of one), but IMO, the extra cost is definitely justified. It's wonderful on sax, and it works very well on acoustic stringed instruments. It also serves well when used on drum overheads. It wouldn't be my first choice on vocals, but if you're going to try it on that (or any ribbon), make sure you use a good pop shield - wind blasts can destroy any ribbon mic. The only tube mic I've ever sang over was a Brauner VM-1. My best bud brought his down and I got to try it for a weekend. Honestly on rockers and even pop stuff, I couldn't tell a world of difference from some of my mics, but on intimate acoustic/ vocal stuff, it's the first time my voice sounded to me; 'big studio'. I recorded a whole album worth of stuff on it (I sing exactly half the lead vocals so around six songs) and I only kept one take. It was high quality and all but not better than a better take on a lesser mic. (I did this in a hurry on a couple of nights and afternoons). Anyway, I've got a few pre's around but the Brauner just loved the Grace 101. They seemed to be a happy match compared to my other ones. I'd love to find a tube mic much less expensive obviously that approached those rich mids I got on acoustic/vocal type tracks. I'm hoping that some other tube mic could give me an approximation of what the VM-1 gave me. Don't get me wrong, I don't expect an MXL Mogami or NTK to sound like the Brauner, but do tube mics have some sort of magic in the mids? Guess I just mainly want something that's in that direction compared to my other mics. Brauner and Soundelux are, IMO, at the top of the LD condenser mic food chain these days. They make just stunning microphones, and it's hard to go wrong with any of their offerings - tube or solid state. On the cheap, the best inexpensive LD tube condenser I think I've ever tried is the Rode NTK. It's not always right for every vocalist, and it tends to be a little "enhanced" sounding on the top end (placement can help with this - ask Where ), and you really should replace the stock tube (I went with a JAN Phillips replacement), but for under a grand - well under a grand, it's a great value. Thanks in advance for all opinions. No problem! We welcome follow-up questions too. Again, welcome to the forums.

[UstadKhanAli]

Lawson makes nice stuff, including the L251.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Originally posted by UstadKhanAli Lawson makes nice stuff, including the L251.

 

Very true Ken - you can add them to my "at the top of the food chain" comment from earlier.

[UstadKhanAli]

Cool. I was mentioning Lawson, obviously because I think it's great stuff, but also because it's relatively inexpensive compared to Brauner and Soundelux. Lawson ain't cheap, though. That's what happens when you have one guy makin' stuff by hand. Totally worth every penny, though, in my opinion. I love the L251 I have.

[Picker]

For ribbon mics I've also heard good things about

 

Crowley and Tripp (the Naked EYE is about $750)

AEA R84

 

I haven't personally tried either yet, but those are the two I was looking hardest at.

[Phil O'Keefe]

AEA is up there with Royer IMO as one of the best ribbon mic lines in the world. Wes Dooley at AEA really knows his stuff.

[UstadKhanAli]

Telefunken is coming out with a cardioid ribbon mic, the RM-5C for about $1000 or so. Telefunken doesn't suck, so it may be good to keep yer eye on this.

[D Charles]

Sean, I'll keep an eye out for a sony c37a.

 

GZ, the newer Beyer M260s have the roll off. I'd like to get a ribbon just for a completely different sound from what I have now.

 

where, that NTK keeps coming up. Probably going to have to try one although my friend with the VM-1 had one and didn't keep it. I don't think he tried to change out the tube though.

 

Phil, guess I was a tad ambiguous. I was refering to the graphic EQ and George being the daddy of parametric, not the 441. Only thing I've ever read about him and Sennheiser is he likes the 431 on snare drum.

 

I've always wanted to try an RE20, but also an SM7. I've read several big recording cats say that They'll try a U-67, U-47, (insert more mics I can't afford) and an SM7 on most singers and one of them will work. I don't even think the SM7 is a true large diaphram mic, but it's obvioiusly pretty versitile. Maybe there's a store that would send me both with the understanding I'd send one back in a weeks time? Do stores take returns on mics?

 

And another vote for the NTK, seeing a trend here.

 

Ken, I can't afford a Lawson, but I'd love to try one.

 

Thanks guys!

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Originally posted by D Charles And another vote for the NTK, seeing a trend here. Ken, I can't afford a Lawson, but I'd love to try one. Thanks guys!

 

 

I've used the NTK, although I don't own one. Nice mic.

 

And hey, I can't afford a Lawson either. I won the mic in an AES drawing!!!!!!! But in either case, they're typically much cheaper than Brauners or Soundeluxes (though still expensive!) but still high quality, so I thought I'd mention it. Also, the Lawsons are the *nicest* couple.......

[Phil O'Keefe]

Aaah, upon re-reading your first post, I see what you meant now. Thanks for the clarification!

 

I'm not opposed to graphics per se, but if given a choice, I'd prefer to use a parametric. Actually, when tracking, as much as possible, I prefer to get sounds via adjustments to the sound source, and with microphone selection / placement and forego EQ completely, although I'm not religious about it... except maybe with vocals. I can't recall the last time I ever tracked a vocal through any EQ at all, except maybe for a special effect or something. But then again, I'm a big fan of the "whatever works and sounds good" approach, so if it sounds good to you with a graphic and a 441, then by all means...

 

George is a brilliant man. He doesn't suffer fools, but he has always been very kind and helpful to me, and I have the utmost respect for him as a person and for his musical accomplishments. And yes, he does like the Sennheiser 431.

 

He's not active on forums these days as far as I know, but he used to have a forum over on Musicplayer and the archives of his old forum are still posted over there. He also used to moderate over on Prosound web , and the forum is still up and active, but I don't believe he posts there much at all anymore. But there's a gold mine of information from him you can search and read at those two sites if you want.

 

Again, welcome to the forums David. It's good to have you with us.

 

 

[alcohol]

Brauner VM-1 $7000

 

Sony c37a if you can find one used $3550 Cheap! I'll take one.

 

I committed the heresy of buying a Telefunken M16 MKII after listening to some Pelusos and cheaper Neumans. Only $1500 but pleasing for my tin ears.

[seaneldon]

nah, the VM1 is a $4500 mic. the VM1-KHE was $9,000-11,000 depending on when and where you bought it.

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Originally posted by D Charles I've got large and small diaphram condensers, small diaphram dynamics, but I don't have a ribbon, a large diaphram dynamic, or a tube mic. I'd like to, so perhaps you cats can help me get my wish list straight. I used to own a Sennheiser 441 which was my main recording mic back in the 80's. I sold it in a package deal to a buddy and used the cash to buy an AKG 414B/ULS used, way back then. I really miss the 441 but you folks that have tried a bunch of them, 'if you could only own one....;' would you choose a 441, 421, SM7, RE20 or something I haven't thought of? I used to get some great vocals out of the 441 using a graphic eq. I know most people don't approve of them ever since George Massenburg but it worked great for me. I'd use it for vox, acoustic instruments, guitar amp and maybe kick drum.

 

 

I don't own a 441, although I've used one once in for vocals in a recording session. It was, truthfully, the only mic available at the time, but we did get a satisfying sound out of it for female vocals. They were warm and present, and we were happy with the results (no EQ).

 

I own three 421s. I've used them in the past to record vocals. They do well with rock-type male vocals. I usually use them for things like toms or congas or even the occasional kick drum. I especially like them as the close mic on a guitar cabinet (I usually use a LDC farther away as well).

 

I've never had a chance to use an RE20, but have been on sessions where someone has used them for vocals and kick drums, getting great results.

 

And I've been on one session where someone used an SM7 on vocals, calling it a smooth vocal mic. The results were indeed smooth.

 

~~

 

Choosing a vocal mic is a strange thing. Sometimes, I'll A/B mics with a vocalist I'm working with for the first time, and the results, depending on the vocalist and song and vibe, can lead you in interesting directions.

 

For example, I had a male rock vocalist come in and try out a few vocals. His voice was a bit like Paul Westerberg's voice, kind of raspy. Ended up that an LDC just didn't sound right, and the 421 captured his vocals much better, and was a much better vibe for the song.

[littledog]

The cheapest tube mic that I've used is the AT4060, which has rendered some nice tracks. (Vocals, cello, and clarinet in particular.) But I admit, I've not personally tried the Studio Projects, SE, Charter Oak, ADK, or any other of the Chinese manufactured mics. Some of them certainly look nice from the outside!

 

As far as ribbons on saxes, I'm not a big fan - especially on tenor sax. But I know others will disagree, which is fine. I much prefer large diaphragm condensers on most saxes. I could see trying a ribbon on a particularly hard-edged alto or soprano.

 

I do love ribbons on brass instruments, though. And I might actually like some of the Crowley and Tripp ribbons (the ones that are voiced a little brighter) on saxes if I had the opportunity to try them, based on what I've heard at the trade shows.

[Phil O'Keefe]

On the subject of SM7's, they do get used a lot for vocal tracking by some people; in my experience, primarily on heavier rock stuff, where they can serve well in that application. However, if I had the choice between the two, I'd get the RE20 because I feel it is a more versatile microphone all around. However, neither is terribly expensive, so getting both may be an option for some people...

[GZsound]

 

Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe Of all the ribbons I have, my personal favorite is the Beyer M160. It's more expensive than the M260 (two ribbon elements instead of one), but IMO, the extra cost is definitely justified. It's wonderful on sax, and it works very well on acoustic stringed instruments. It also serves well when used on drum overheads. It wouldn't be my first choice on vocals, but if you're going to try it on that (or any ribbon), make sure you use a good pop shield - wind blasts can destroy any ribbon mic.

 

 

Phil.. I have been using my M260 on my sax for something like 30 years without a pop screen.. and mostly at live gigs.

 

You don't use a pop screen on your M160 when recording sax do you? I don't think there is that much of a "blast" of air coming out of the horn..but like I said, in 30 years the only problem I have had with my M260 is that it started losing it's magnetic structure and had to be sent back to Beyer (after a long, frustrating, futile, waste of money trip to Stephen Sank to be reribboned).

 

Never used a pop screen...but haven't used it for vocals either..

[littledog]

Everyone I can remember that I 've ever met records saxophones from 18" or more away from the horn, with the mic pointing at the center of the instrument, since a great deal of the sound comes out of the key holes - not just the bell. At that distance and at that location, there is probably more air hitting the mic from the room ventilation system than from the saxophone.

[witesol]

like Phil, I'm a big fan of the M160, and Beyerdynamic products in general. I do like it on sax. It's also cool on BGVs where you want them to sit nicely in a mix and be felt, like on OOhs. It's also the go-to for any guitar amp with a buzzy/fizzy sound. The only problem is I own only one. Maybe Phil will loan me his for a few months

[Phil O'Keefe]

A few months? Not likely. But if you have a drum session and need to borrow one for a day or three, give me a call.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Originally posted by littledog Everyone I can remember that I 've ever met records saxophones from 18" or more away from the horn, with the mic pointing at the center of the instrument, since a great deal of the sound comes out of the key holes - not just the bell. At that distance and at that location, there is probably more air hitting the mic from the room ventilation system than from the saxophone.

 

Absolutely true. I normally don't bother with any sort of a pop shield when recording a sax with a ribbon mic, and my placement is definitely what you're describing, or even further away. I never cared for the sound of a mic right in front of or shoved down the bell of a sax. Of course, if that is the sound that any of you prefer, then do whatever pleases you.

[witesol]

kidding Phil..sort of, but thanks for the offer. and it applies back at you as well.

I've been rediscovering the SM81s lately, they really sound nice with the JoeMeek twinQ on "iron". I have done some single OH 3 mic drum things using the M160. On my own studio set it smoothes out a couple less than desirable cymbals.

 

Sometimes I like the sound of a 57 shoved into the bell of a tenor sax, much like what happens onstage. But not for every project. I've done a bunch of horns in the past 3 months, seems a 4050 has been used more than once.