AE3000 or MD421 II for toms, snare, and kick

[xiwiwix1]

Which would be better for toms, snare, and kick AE3000 or MD421 II?

 

I have one MD421II and I love it. I use it as a room mic because it picks up so much punch from the kick, it's amazing!

 

Any other opinions? What mic's would do a better job than these two in the same price range?

 

This is what I plan on doing:

 

AE3000 or MD421II on the top of the toms (four)

Shure 57's on the bottom of the toms (four)

MD421II in the kick

Audix D-6 in the kick

Audix D-6 Beater side

Audio Technica ATM25 clamped on the rim of the resonance side of the kick

AE3000 or MD421II on the top of the snare

Shure 57 on the bottom of the snare

AT4041 three as left, right, and center over heads

ATM450 three over snare, and to the left and right shoulder of drummer

 

20 mic's in all

[where02190]

Do you think we only read one forum here?

[xiwiwix1]

Well, I get different responce from the different forums. I need all the help I can get.

 

EDIT: To answer your question, no.

[GuitarPLayer61990]

 

Originally posted by xiwiwix MD421II on the top of the toms (four) MD421 Outside kick Audix D-6 in the kick Shure SM57 on the top of the snare MD421 on the bottom of the snare AT4041 three as left, right, and center over heads

 

Try that instead

 

And to answer your question, the MD421 is killer on toms.

[witesol]

this strikes me as a whole lot of mics, could be troublesome to manage all that bleed and potential phase smear. How big a room are you in? Is it treated? Of course options are nice to have, and perhaps I'm a lazy engineer. I'll simply set up one kick mic, two OH, toms, top and bottom snare, maybe a hat mic, and make it work. To answer the question, either mic would probably be fine.

[where02190]

My thoughts exactly, that many mics, especially the 3 overheads, is going to be a phase issue nightmare.

1-2 OH, 1-2 room mics, maybe a close kick and tom snare=killer drum sound.

[UstadKhanAli]

I tend to try and use as few mics as I can get away with.

 

This is partially due to the aformentioned "phase smear", partially because I only have 8 really nice converters (it goes south after that with the Digi001 converters! ), and partially because I don't like hassles.

 

YMMV.

[seaneldon]

hanging 20 mics, eh? no thanks.

 

try like...4-5 mics. if that doesn't work you've got big problems.

[littledog]

Originally posted by where02190 Do you think we only read one forum here?

 

Umm... I'm a litle confused. A couple of months ago I made a similar comment to somebody, and you jumped all over my ass, defending the posters right to put up the question on as many forums as they wanted. Called me something along the lines of "wannabe-forum-Nazi-thought-police", or something along those lines. Perhaps there was a subtle difference that I'm missing.

[xiwiwix1]

Originally posted by littledog Umm... I'm a litle confused. A couple of months ago I made a similar comment to somebody, and you jumped all over my ass, defending the posters right to put up the question on as many forums as they wanted. Called me something along the lines of "wannabe-forum-Nazi-thought-police", or something along those lines. Perhaps there was a subtle difference that I'm missing.

 

Yes, I believe he was joking.

[xiwiwix1]

The thing is, when it's time to mix, I want COMPLETE control. I don't want to say well, he didn't hit the high hat hard enough on this one part and he was hitting the ride to hard on this part of the song. If need be I can fix that with the extra mics. And to be honest my philosophy :rollseyes: is you can Never have to many mics on anything. I've only been do this for about 8 months now, and maybe thats why I think that way.

 

What is this "phase smear" I keep reading about. I haven't had any problems with phasing, and of course I hope I NEVER do.

[witesol]

 

Originally posted by xiwiwix The thing is, when it's time to mix, I want COMPLETE control. I don't want to say well, he didn't hit the high hat hard enough on this one part and he was hitting the ride to hard on this part of the song. If need be I can fix that with the extra mics. And to be honest my philosophy :rollseyes: is you can Never have to many mics on anything. I've only been do this for about 8 months now, and maybe thats why I think that way. What is this "phase smear" I keep reading about. I haven't had any problems with phasing, and of course I hope I NEVER do.

 

 

seems like a valid enough reason in theory but in real world practice you'll never be able to "fix" anything like a mis-hit drum or inconsistent velocity through extra mics, for many reasons. Those issues are typically handled; first by the player and performance(getting a good take), perhaps compressor/limiters and then through mixing moves. The problems with that many mics are numerous. For instance, if you expect to turn on a particular mic track that lays dormant for the rest of the song to fix a mis-hit or softly played section you could end up changing not only the tonality of the rest of the kit sounds but the balance as well. If something was misplayed you'll only capture it on another mic as the same mistake only with that particular mic's new sonic signature.

 

3 OH, 3 kick drum mics plus top and bottom tom mics won't fix any mistake during tracking but will only be a washed out mess at mix time. You'll not get a nice discreet stereo canvas either. If you're in a small room that is even a worse scenario for trouble.

 

I would guess you're already experiencing phase issues, but you're ears and experience is simply not tuned in enough to identify it....yet. With that many mics, I'd bet on it, especially in a basically home studio environment, more than likely with insufficient acoustic treatments, small rectangular rooms with parallel surfaces and a monitoring situation along with experience level that won't allow you to hear the nuances.

 

That many mics picking up the same sets of sounds but at slightly different times is the recipe for problems. That along with positive and negative pressure waves like on a top and bottom of a tom; one wave going away from a mic(top) and one going towards a mic(bottom) is asking for trouble. Even with 4 mics on the whole drumset one might encounter some issues. Do you typically use more than two tracks playing back on any one drum, like two mics/tracks for the kick, the toms, the snare? Have you ever heard the term "reversed the phase" or "phase flipped", "Inverted" before? No doubt you have. Have you ever inverted the phase on any playback tracks of your drum recording? How about the 3:1 rule? ..and I'm not trying to be condescending when I ask, only helpful.

 

The good news is once you start learning about these things you'll improve your drum sound a lot. Plus, you won't need to hook up so many mics, cables, stands, preamp channels, and eat up that many recording tracks( besides cramming that many things into a ITB digital mix buss). Makes things a lot easier... easier+better seems good doesn't it? Easier on the wallet too! There is lots of info available on the subject and some very sharp folks right here.

 

perhaps someone might chime in with additional help..I need coffee:)

[xiwiwix1]

 

Originally posted by witesol seems like a valid enough reason in theory but in real world practice you'll never be able to "fix" anything like a mis-hit drum or inconsistent velocity through extra mics, for many reasons. Those issues are typically handled; first by the player and performance(getting a good take), perhaps compressor/limiters and then through mixing moves. The problems with that many mics are numerous. For instance, if you expect to turn on a particular mic track that lays dormant for the rest of the song to fix a mis-hit or softly played section you could end up changing not only the tonality of the rest of the kit sounds but the balance as well. If something was misplayed you'll only capture it on another mic as the same mistake only with that particular mic's new sonic signature. 3 OH, 3 kick drum mics plus top and bottom tom mics won't fix any mistake during tracking but will only be a washed out mess at mix time. You'll not get a nice discreet stereo canvas either. If you're in a small room that is even a worse scenario for trouble. I would guess you're already experiencing phase issues, but you're ears and experience is simply not tuned in enough to identify it....yet. With that many mics, I'd bet on it, especially in a basically home studio environment, more than likely with insufficient acoustic treatments, small rectangular rooms with parallel surfaces and a monitoring situation along with experience level that won't allow you to hear the nuances. That many mics picking up the same sets of sounds but at slightly different times is the recipe for problems. That along with positive and negative pressure waves like on a top and bottom of a tom; one wave going away from a mic(top) and one going towards a mic(bottom) is asking for trouble. Even with 4 mics on the whole drumset one might encounter some issues. Do you typically use more than two tracks playing back on any one drum, like two mics/tracks for the kick, the toms, the snare? Have you ever heard the term "reversed the phase" or "phase flipped", "Inverted" before? No doubt you have. Have you ever inverted the phase on any playback tracks of your drum recording? How about the 3:1 rule? ..and I'm not trying to be condescending when I ask, only helpful. The good news is once you start learning about these things you'll improve your drum sound a lot. Plus, you won't need to hook up so many mics, cables, stands, preamp channels, and eat up that many recording tracks( besides cramming that many things into a ITB digital mix buss). Makes things a lot easier... easier+better seems good doesn't it? Easier on the wallet too! There is lots of info available on the subject and some very sharp folks right here. perhaps someone might chime in with additional help..I need coffee:)

 

 

Thank you!

 

 

"Do you typically use more than two tracks playing back on any one drum, like two mics/tracks for the kick, the toms, the snare? Have you ever heard the term "reversed the phase" or "phase flipped", "Inverted" before? No doubt you have. Have you ever inverted the phase on any playback tracks of your drum recording? How about the 3:1 rule?"

 

No, tell me more, please!

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Originally posted by xiwiwix "Do you typically use more than two tracks playing back on any one drum, like two mics/tracks for the kick, the toms, the snare? Have you ever heard the term "reversed the phase" or "phase flipped", "Inverted" before? No doubt you have. Have you ever inverted the phase on any playback tracks of your drum recording? How about the 3:1 rule?" No, tell me more, please!

 

 

3:1 rule (Crown web site)

 

 

3:1 rule and phase cancellation - Robert Dennis

 

Recording Drums - scroll down to "Microphone Phase Relationships" for a good explanation of phase reversal and snares

 

I personally don't like using two mics on the snare, and usually mic the side of the snare from about 4-6" away to get a balanced sound from the snare. A lot of people get a really great sound using two mics on the snare, so I'm definitely not saying it's bad, just simply that I don't the fussiness of it and prefer to do it with one mic.