2 kicks vs double kick pedal

[stage7]

My drummer is incredibly stubborn, and really wants to do our latest recording with 2 kicks rather than a single kick and a double pedal. Even though the kicks are identical models, they don't sound the same. To make things worse, I only have 1 MD421 and I was using this in the single kick with double pedal, so if we were going to go with 2 kicks I'd either have to use this and a PG52 or ditch the MD421 all together and use 2 PG52s.

 

I've tried explaining to him that it'd be pretty much impossible to get the kicks to sound the same especially when using 2 different mics in them. He insists that in "real studios" they'll always use 2 kicks over a double pedal, and that he plays better when he's using 2 kicks. I told him the first statement is a load of crap and that he should have been practicing on the double pedal before we started micing up to record.

 

He also insists that it's not important for the kicks to sound identical, which I can agree with, but I still think they should be darn close. Triggering and drum replacement isn't an option for me right now since I still don't have any programs for that, and I don't feel like doing it manually.

 

So what are your thoughts? In an ideal situation, would you rather work with 2 kicks or a double pedal, or does it make no difference? What would you do in my situation (only 1 decent kick mic)?

[sadlytragic]

If its not a drummer, its the singer causing problems.

 

I've never noticed a trend (in pictures) to where they always use double kicks. but i don't have enough expierence to say anything. I just wanted to throw my first part out at all

[sdsweet]

I seen an ad for a drum machine once that read something like this:

 

440 sounds

8 kits

6 presets

no attitude

 

:D LMFAO :D

 

I would humor him, and try to get the best sound possible. If it proves impossible then at that time tell him it's his turm to compromise...

[sadlytragic]

Originally posted by sdsweet I seen an ad for a drum machine once that read something like this: 440 sounds 8 kits 6 presets no attitude :D LMFAO :D I would humor him, and try to get the best sound possible. If it proves impossible then at that time tell him it's his turm to compromise...

 

lol we always threaten our drummer about getting one. He says he'll buy a guitar machine...to bad they dont make um, guess i lucked out.

 

let us know how it turns out, im curious.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Originally posted by stage7 My drummer is incredibly stubborn, and really wants to do our latest recording with 2 kicks rather than a single kick and a double pedal. I don't like this guy already... Even though the kicks are identical models, they don't sound the same. They never do... even if you have Ross Garfield teching the drums for you. To make things worse, I only have 1 MD421 and I was using this in the single kick with double pedal, so if we were going to go with 2 kicks I'd either have to use this and a PG52 or ditch the MD421 all together and use 2 PG52s. I've tried explaining to him that it'd be pretty much impossible to get the kicks to sound the same especially when using 2 different mics in them. You are correct sir! He insists that in "real studios" they'll always use 2 kicks over a double pedal, and that he plays better when he's using 2 kicks. Blarney... first of all, there is no "always" in audio. Secondly, most of the sessions I've visited, and nearly all the ones I run use the double pedal, as opposed to the double kick drum approach. I told him the first statement is a load of crap and that he should have been practicing on the double pedal before we started micing up to record. He also insists that it's not important for the kicks to sound identical, which I can agree with, but I still think they should be darn close. Yup... unless you want "Boom crack Blat, Boom crack Blat", or on the fast double kick parts "BoomBlatBoomBlatBoomBlat". Personally, I HATE that sound. Triggering and drum replacement isn't an option for me right now since I still don't have any programs for that, and I don't feel like doing it manually. I don't do much triggering at all, and usually only pull out the replacement tools in cases of dire emergency. So what are your thoughts? In an ideal situation, would you rather work with 2 kicks or a double pedal, or does it make no difference? What would you do in my situation (only 1 decent kick mic)? You could always try to buy or borrow another 421... but IMHO, the best approach is to just use a single drum and a double beater pedal.

[Keithrt99]

if he plays better with 2 kicks, use 2. It's more important that the performance turns out good, than if it's an inconvience to record an extra kick.

 

besides, if your band uses alot of double bass, you're probably going to sound replace the kicks anyway.

[Han]

But, IMHO your drummer has a point. Two kicks aren't supposed to sound the same and if he's a right handed drummer his right foot will be a little stronger than his left foot.

 

I like two kicks more than a double pedal and I'll tell you why. The left pedal is connected via a couple of weak connections and a rod.

 

So the action in the richt pedal is much faster and stronger than in the left pedal. And since both batters kick the same drumhead, they won't sound equal.

 

Two kicks, two mics, two tracks, two EQ's, two compressors with different settings and your kicksound will kick ass.

[Lee Flier]

Yeah, I agree with Han actually.

 

If you want the kicks to sound the same, use the single drum/double beater (and even then they won't really sound the same, as Han mentions). The real point of using a double kick is they aren't the same, and if you're going to use two kicks, you should think of that as an advantage, not a problem.

 

I also agree that if the drummer is used to performing with two kicks he should record with them, as I always believe in going with whatever will bring out the best performance.

 

Phil's right that there's no "always" in audio. Some drummers in "big studios" use 2 kicks and some use the double pedal... depends on the drummer and the song.

 

I don't understand why engineers always think it's OK to tell a drummer what to use or not use in the studio. It's their friggin instrument just like any other. Nobody seems to tell other musicians what gear choices they should make, but with drummers it's always "Oh God, don't use a double kick!" "Oh God, don't let the drums ring, put tape on them!" "Oh God, we can't use THAT drum sound, I'm replacing them all with samples!" Etc. Geez, just let him use what he wants and deal with it.

[stage7]

Thanks for the responses guys. I already promised him we'd try it during our setup this week. However, he wants a specific sound, and one that we've managed to get pretty close to with the MD421. The PG52 sounds like the MD421 with a sock over it... high end is virtually nonexistant. As I said before, samples and sound replacement aren't an option for us right now.

 

As far as the performance goes... I agree that we should do what will make him give the best performance. However, I've been playing with him for years and he goes back and forth on the double pedal/2 kick thing. We record our practices on a fairly regular basis, and from experience I can say the difference in his performance from one to the other is negligable at best. In fact, our guitar player says he's faster and more accurate with the double pedal. It's just been a few months since he's played with it now, and we had decided to use the double pedal well over a month ago for the recording. He just never bothered with switching it out for practice which was why I was saying he should have been working with it sooner.

 

Lee Flier: Yeah, engineers shouldn't tell any of the musicians that they can't do something in particular, but they should definitely make suggestions that are going to help them achieve the sound they want. I don't see offering tape to dampen the ring or different kits as being any different then having a guitar player use a different amp or guitar, or telling them they need to turn their gain lower than they would for their live sound when recording. If you know what sound they want, I think it's your responsiblilty to tell them how they can get it.

 

Han: His point with the difference in sound with kicks wasn't the emphasis of one foot for another, and that will still be achieved with a double pedal. He was playing this cd (Trivium's Ascendancy) and saying that the left kick was tuned slightly lower than than right. I personally didn't hear it and thought they just sounded like one was slightly quieter... but I'm no drummer so he could be right. Admittedly he does have a DDrum Dominion Ash kit with 2 kicks.

 

I think his double pedal is pretty nice though. He used the Iron Cobra Power Glide for both his single and double pedals. It's anything but a weak connection

 

Phil: Oh, I wish I had the money to go out and buy another MD421... or 6 so I could mic the toms with them too... darn my nonexistant budget .

 

In any case, I'll be back over trying things out with him tomorrow so we'll see how it goes. I got off the phone with him not too long ago and now he wants me to try using 3 mics on the snare and 4 overheads If I'm still sane by the end of this I'll try to post some clips if I need any more advice about what to do on this project.

[Phil O'Keefe]

I'm all for someone using what they're comfortable with, and if someone came in who normally used a double kick setup and that was their thing, their sound, I'm not going to insist that they use a single with a double pedal. However, most of the drummers I've worked with - even guys who like and do a lot of double kick stuff, tell me they're looking for consistency on all the double kick hits, and that they dislike the "two different kick tones" approach... and again, I don't care for that either... to me, the two different tones, that fast and that low, just make the bottom end cluttered; more often than not one or the other of the kicks ends up fighting with the bottom of the bass. And IMO, a good player will know how to get tonal differences from one drum, by using different note velocities and so forth as needed; I find that slight differences between the left and right foot are usually plenty to differentiate the two alternating kick hits, and to me that is generally more natural sounding and less distracting than two different notes from two seperate drums alternating back and forth.

 

Anyway, if you want it different sounding between the two, then use two kicks. If the guy is going to be psyched out if he doesn't have two drums, then use two - it's all good, and I'd rather have the drummer comfortable so they perform at their best and deal with the sonic issues than have them miserable and distracted. But what makes me crazy is when some guy brings in two kicks, maybe different types of shells, or different skins, or just wacked tunings on identical shells, or he has a really weak left foot (from what I've seen, it can happen with the double drum players just as easily as a double pedal users) and an overcompensating / heavy right foot ... and then tells me he wants the double kick sections to be consistent and sounding identical from hit to hit.

 

It starts with the drummer first and foremost... and of course, their instrument choice is their choice... but tuning it, and knowing how to play it is their job too - it shouldn't be about us (engineers) sample replacing every note to make it sound consistent. You want consistent? Then play it consistent. If a double pedal might help get you there easier, I'll suggest it... but if you want rock a double kick, it's your call - and your responsibility to play it how you want it to sound.

 

A seperate, but semi-related observation: I know it's a generalization and there's lots of exceptions, but it seems that the majority of the time when I have a drummer bring in a 8 pc kit with a double kick setup, they are, uh, less than solid... but most of the guys who come in with 4 pc setups are just groovemeisters... why is that?

[Han]

Like always, a good drumsound starts with a good drummer. Wanna sound like John Bonham? learn how to play like John Bonham and you'll only need two M160's.

 

Having that said, it must be not so difficult to make a consistant double kicksound if you have two of the same kicks, with the same heads and the same pedals/batters.

 

In my experience you'll have more problems with a double pedal and a left foot that hits less hard.

 

Peace, Han

[Phil O'Keefe]

In my experience you'll have more problems with a double pedal and a left foot that hits less hard.

 

Yes, but aren't you also going to have basically the same problem with two seperate drums? If one foot's heavier than the other, it would cause fluctuations with either setup. Toss in a second drum - which may be the same brand and model, but hey, wood can vary and sound different in guitars of the same model, and drums are no different IMO... and then the additional variable of two heads you have to get tuned exactly the same, and of course, two drums sitting in slightly different physical locations in the room... I dunno Han, if it works better for you with two drums, then I respect that, but for me, the more variables there are, the more likely something is to sound different, and I've never had great luck in getting two drums to sound identical... YMMV.

[Han]

Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe In my experience you'll have more problems with a double pedal and a left foot that hits less hard. Yes, but aren't you also going to have basically the same problem with two seperate drums? If one foot's heavier than the other, it would cause fluctuations with either setup. Toss in a second drum - which may be the same brand and model, but hey, wood can vary and sound different in guitars of the same model, and drums are no different IMO... and then the additional variable of two heads you have to get tuned exactly the same, and of course, two drums sitting in slightly different physical locations in the room... I dunno Han, if it works better for you with two drums, then I respect that, but for me, the more variables there are, the more likely something is to sound different, and I've never had great luck in getting two drums to sound identical... YMMV.

 

You have a point Phil, but with a double pedal you'll have one microphone and one track, but the left batter will often sound different from the right batter, which will have more attack, where the left batter will have a more woofy sound.

 

And there's very little you can do. In case you have two kicks, you'll have two microphones and record to two tracks, which gives you the opportunity to use different EQ settings and different processing on each of these tracks.

 

So you probably will end up with a more consistant sound.

 

I've done a ton of metal bands with double kick/pedal drummers and very few of them are really consistant.

 

Cubase has often saved my ass.

[alphajerk]

i like two kicks sounding different... i dont think they should sound the same honestly. thats when you go with a double pedal instead. plus two kicks=two tracks=easier to fix

 

why is sample replacement not an option? kick is almost stupid easy to replace.

[Han]

Hi Barrett, long time no see.

[alphajerk]

yeah, been busy lately... still am, but actually just found out most MP people are over here.

[stage7]

 

Originally posted by alphajerk why is sample replacement not an option?

 

 

Because as a student with little to no budget for gear on a regular basis, I've not yet spent the money to get sample collections or sound replacement software. My focus so far, and I think rightfully so, has been on learning how to get good and appropriate sounds with the tools I have available. It's limiting at times like this, but I think it's forced me to learn how to choose and place a mic better than I would have otherwise.

 

In any case, with the speed this guy plays his kicks at and the fact that he's specifically said he doesn't want an artifical sounding set... it's probably not the best time for me to try my hand at sound replacement for the first time.

[Han]

I've been recording with a metal band where the drummer was a beast on his snare and a {censored} on the kicks.

 

The bleed from the snare into the kick mic was huge, almost as loud as the woofy kick.

 

So I triggered it from tape to an Alesis D4 and via MIDI to an old Atari ST with Cubase software.

 

In Cubase I could edit all the notes and erase the extra triggered notes from the snare. With a cheap SMPTE to MTC convertor I could sync the Atari to the tapemachine and used kick nr 11 from the D4 instead of his woofy {censored} kicks.

 

After the CD was released people phoned me about how I'd done that kick sound.

 

Another double kick metal drummer had a pretty consistant right foot, but his left foot was like falling leafs between it.

Absolutely useless and horrible sounding.

 

I have triggered his right kick from the recorded tape to Cubase, copied that track and moved it right into the middle of the notes from the right foot kick.

 

The result was a very consistant and tight double kicksound, which came from the D4 of course.

 

Drummers, don't get me started. (btw, I'm a drummer too)

[where02190]

He's the drummer, right? Is he telling you what (insert your instrument here) to play?

 

2 kicks aren't supposed to sound the same, that's the point. And why do you feel so compelled to have to use the same mic on each one? You don't want them to sound the same.

 

Let the drummer play what he wants, he is the drummer, not you.

 

IMHO you're making a mountain out of a mole hill.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by stage7 As far as the performance goes... I agree that we should do what will make him give the best performance. However, I've been playing with him for years and he goes back and forth on the double pedal/2 kick thing.

 

Ahh, well if he's equally comfortable with either one then it's not much of an issue; you can just go with whatever sounds best.

 

If you know what sound they want, I think it's your responsiblilty to tell them how they can get it.

 

Agreed... the key being if you know what sound THEY want. Your initial post kinda read like you were trying to TELL your drummer what sound HE wanted. There's a big difference there.

 

It sounds like you guys maybe agree on what kind of sound you want but disagree on what will get you there. Probably the best thing is for both of you to put aside any preconceived ideas and just try all of your ideas. Hopefully it will be obvious what sounds best when you get there! Don't be afraid to try a mic on a kick that you wouldn't ordinarily use for kick, either... if you're not on the clock you can try whatever you want and getting the sound you want with the gear you have takes as long as it takes.

[Keithrt99]

 

Originally posted by stage7 He was playing this cd (Trivium's Ascendancy) and saying that the left kick was tuned slightly lower than than right. I personally didn't hear it and thought they just sounded like one was slightly quieter... but I'm no drummer so he could be right. Admittedly he does have a DDrum Dominion Ash kit with 2 kicks.

 

 

that album's kicks are 100% replaced with andy sneap's drum samples (he's a record producer). Those samples are online if you look for them, andy posted them on his forum a while back. On a related note, Google APtrigga: it's like a 45$USD sound replacer, that you can download. If You can't afford it, sell a pg52. Also you could make samples of you MD421 on the kick and replace with that.

[alphajerk]

aptrigga is like $49 and there are literally TONS of free [not stolen] kicks on the net.

 

that aside... dont get hung up on matching the two kicks, mics, kick tuning, even beaters.. doesnt matter... just make the two sound complimentary to each other and it will sound great. hell 2x 57's on the inside coupled with a pair of stereo speakers pulling the woofers as the mic source for the bottom will give you a pretty good sound.

[stage7]

Originally posted by Keithrt99 that album's kicks are 100% replaced with andy sneap's drum samples (he's a record producer). Those samples are online if you look for them, andy posted them on his forum a while back. On a related note, Google APtrigga: it's like a 45$USD sound replacer, that you can download. If You can't afford it, sell a pg52. Also you could make samples of you MD421 on the kick and replace with that.

 

Cool, I had not heard of that program before. I'll definitely check that out in the very near future.

 

This is how last night turned out btw... He's got 5 inch ports on his kicks. The PG52 is huge, can't get it very far inside the drum on a stand. So we play around for a little while, can't get the sound we're looking for, so I say "hey, let's just take the back head off so we can get closer to the beater". He immediately says no way. I say ok, try putting it inside with no stand, but the thing is jumping all over the place and still sounds like crap. I tell him we're going to have to take one of the 57s off his 2nd snare and do all the songs with his other snare first and we'll just set up the 2nd snare at the end. He doesn't think a 57 will sound right on his kick. We try it out, and it sounds much better than the PG52 and much closer to the MD421, but no matter where we put it he says he doesn't like it, finally gives up and says that if I give him a week to practice, he'll be back to normal with the double pedal. Oh well, at least now it sounds decent, he's happy, I'm happy, and throughout all this we discovered that an omni room mic really does work wonders for opening up the sound, even if it is just a Karma k-micro

[wuzza]

Don't work so hard to keep the pink elephants hidden. I'm a drummer who wants things certain ways, but so many musicians have a crutch or OCD - driven need to have to do this or that. As Mike Myers' "Scottish Therapist" character would say "Cut the crap, you need to get in touch with your angerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr". I led men's therapy groups in a famous psych hospital for years. Lots of professional and non-pro people with troubles. Lots of men seem to have to do their posturing bull{censored} no matter what the situation. Don't be one of those guys and the music will improve.

[TBush]

Most of the "metal" drummers that come through here have a double pedal- great, but I have had 4 or 5 bands where the guy has to kick drums. My philosophy is to try and work with what they have- so in one case I knew that it was gonna be more of a slower "budda-budda"- type of thing, so I miced each kick with a 58 and sent tham both out to trigger a Drumagog on a buss return (I did use a sample of the guy's actual kick recorded with an SM98 as the wav in Drumagog)- it sounded great. That was 4 years ago- recently though, I had a guy whose kicks really were very close-sounding, so I miced them with matching mics (ADK? Can't remember...) and then sent a signal from each channel to a buss return then had a pretty specific EQ and comp on it- it ended up being about 60% of each channel and 40% the return. Worked great, so while most double kick setups are pretty hard to get great sounds on, there's usually some kind of workaround that can be reached so the drummer is happy and the mix is cool.