Kick & floor tom micing

[Majoria]

Now that I have my 003 and can mic a few more channels, I want to do some recording with a few toms mics. Maybe not one on every tom but more than just the overheads. I have an EV ND408B which I've been using for the kick for about 10 years. I bought it for live use and so it made it's way into the home studio. So I'm questioning whether to buy another floor tom mic and keep the 408 on the kick or buy a kick drum mic and move the 408 to the floor tom. I did a few recordings with the 408 on the floor tom and wasn't thrilled by I think that was due to mic placement and tuning, or lack thereof. I'm familiar with all the major kick mics as I've been drumming for 15 years and don't know how much better they really will do. Put it this way, I bought the 408 over a 52 after comparing the two in the store (again, this was 10 years ago). I play mainly accoustic pop and some rock.

 

I guess my question would be two fold: from your experience, does the 408 sound better on the floor tom or the kick?

And if I go with another floor tom mic which one? ATM250? D4? (haven't found a place to test either)

 

Eventually I'll also get a pre amp to go along with it, probably an RNP.

[rhythminmind]

Not sure about about the 408

But i've been loving the sen e60x series for dynamics. i use the 604 for toms and the 602 for kick.

http://www.sennheiserusa.com/newsite/productdetail.asp?transid=004519

I'm also a audix fan i have the audix drum package. the D4 is i nice floor tom mic.

[UstadKhanAli]

I'm not familiar with any of those mics you mention. For kick, lately I've been using an Avenson ST0-2 on the outside of the kick, and am totally pleased with the sound I'm getting. It's an omni, and you can move it just about anywhere and really pick up the tone of the kick without proximity effect.

 

RNPs are very good mic preamps, and sound good on drums (and pretty much everything else).

[Phil O'Keefe]

I reviewed the new Artist series Audio Technica microphones a whle back, and I was really impressed by the 250. It works very well in BOTH applications - kick and floor tom, and it's reasonably priced, so I'd recommend going with one of those because no matter where you decide to use the E/V, the AT will work well on the other drum.

[Phil O'Keefe]

BTW, I do like the D4 on floor tom, but it's not a great kick mic IMHO - the D6 is MUCH better in that application. I am a big Audix fan, but I don't think the D4 would be a good choice for kick. If you KNOW you're going to use the E/V on kick, then the D4 will do fine for floor tom duties. If you want one mic that can work well on either drum, go with the AT250.

[Majoria]

Thanks for the feedback Phil. Honestly, I'm not sure of anything. I still may go with D4 and D6 and leave the 408 on the shelf if they are that much of a jump over the 408. I hear good things about the 250 but haven't tried one.

 

If you had to choose one kick and one floor tom mic among all those mentioned (or others in that price range), which would you choose? D4 and D6? 250 and a D6? D4 and 250? A pair of 250's? A 52 and the 408?

 

Again, I play accoustic pop and some rock. I also use an AT4041 overhead, 57 on the snare, and a SM98A on the rack tom that I want to replace (just too sensitive for a tom mic), maybe with a D2. Just looking for something to go with that if possible but mainly the best for the style.

[raw-tracks]

I've never actually used an EV N/D408 on kick. The 408 belongs to the the lineage of EV's N/D308, N/D408, N/D468. The N/D468 is the current version. I have used the 308's and 408's extensively on toms throughout the years. I'm not sure whether I've used 468's as well, they all look pretty much the same.

 

For toms, the only thing I prefer more than these EV mics are the Sennheiser MD421's, and I'm on the fence about that. The EV mics give the 421's a pretty good run for their money. Speaking of money, the new 468's can be had for around $150. Used can be found much cheaper. I only own 1 N/D308 which I bought recently for about $50. I think they are fantastic mics.

 

If I were you, I would work with the tuning on your floor tom, that is most likely your problem. Once that's solved, the 408 will work great. Then, look at a dedicated kick mic, or buy an RE20. I used to prefer the AKG D112 on kick, but lately have migrated to the Shure Beta52, I think it sounds a little fuller.

[Lee Knight]

Brand new heads. Use classic non deadening types. Remo Ambas and Diplo

Either tune to resonant freq of each drum or...

Drum Dial and start at recommended tensions per drum size.

Don't dampen drums unless absolutey needed, the Moon Gels cut in half.

Pull the mic off the tom a couple inches.

 

Even a 57 will sound good after that by scooping out 300 a bit and boosting each drums fundamental and attack a little. I even use Groove Tube GT33's on toms sometimes. 604s work. RE20 rocks on a floor tom. But it is the tuning with new heads before anything.

[UstadKhanAli]

I have a D112, 57s, and 421s, and have used all of them for a kick (micing inside).

 

I started using an AT4060 LDC (cardioid) on the outside of the kick in conjunction wtih the mic on the inside kick and was much happier with that, feeling that I got the actual tone and character of the kick.

 

However, I noticed that I kept leaning really heavily on the outside mic, really preferring the tone and impact I was getting, and finally dispensed with it altogether. The AT4060 took a little bit of moving around to get the exact tone I wanted, but it was worth the effort.

 

I've now switched to using an Avenson ST0-2 omni (again, on the outside of the kick), which I now prefer to the AT4060 because I find that due to its omni pattern, it's much more flexible in terms of placement because it's less "fussy" in terms of placement and I can move it in a number of positions that sound really great without worrying about overloading or proximity effect, and can get a beautiful large tone, really capturing the essence of the kick drum and all its tone and impact and musical note. It's by far the happiest I've been with a kick drum sound, something that I've always been really fussy about as it propels the whole song.

 

I freely admit that this is a bit unconventional, but for me, I much prefer the impact and tone. And of course, there are different ways to get a good kick drum sound.

[Lee Knight]

 

I I freely admit that this is a bit unconventional, but for me, I much prefer the impact and tone. And of course, there are different ways to get a good kick drum sound.

 

 

And speaking of unconventional...

 

I'm finding I hardly use any tom mic signal. I use it, but just for bringing in a little focus. Since I've been using the "over the shoulder, over the snare, both equal from the kick and snare Glyn John's (but he didn't invent it) technique... (whew), most of my toms come from the OHs. I much prefer toms mic'ed with some distance.

[Phil O'Keefe]

 

Thanks for the feedback Phil. Honestly, I'm not sure of anything. I still may go with D4 and D6 and leave the 408 on the shelf if they are that much of a jump over the 408. I hear good things about the 250 but haven't tried one. If you had to choose one kick and one floor tom mic among all those mentioned (or others in that price range), which would you choose? D4 and D6? 250 and a D6? D4 and 250? A pair of 250's? A 52 and the 408? Again, I play accoustic pop and some rock. I also use an AT4041 overhead, 57 on the snare, and a SM98A on the rack tom that I want to replace (just too sensitive for a tom mic), maybe with a D2. Just looking for something to go with that if possible but mainly the best for the style.

 

 

 

I normally use Audix D2's on the rack toms. I've been using the AT250 on floor tom lately, with very good results. It offers better LF response than the D2 does, and I actually prefer it over a MD421 in that application. YMMV. I think the D4 is also very good on floor tom too.

 

I don't own a D4 or a D6, but I've used them several times, and they're nice mikes. I normally use a E/V RE20 on kick, along with a Yamaha Subkick, which I print to a second track. The Subkick is great at capturing the fundamental / LF beef of a kick. The AT250 is also very good on kick, as is the At250DE, which has the dynamic element of the 250 in it, plus a second (condenser) capsule. The included cable has two XLR outputs, so each mic can be printed seperately. It's a bit more of a "pre-EQ'ed" sound than the RE20, which I normally don't care for, but IMO, they did a really good job on the sound of both of those microphones, and they're hard to beat for floor tom / kick duties.

[alphajerk]

my 604's have never failed me with the proper EQ for all toms, including floor. kick is a whole other issue. i find so many cool mics work on that. U195, R121, D12 [my fav if available.... not the 112 or the 12e], a 4033/4050/4060 all work great, RE20's, 421's... just about anything in the right place really.

[UstadKhanAli]

 

And speaking of unconventional... I'm finding I hardly use any tom mic signal. I use it, but just for bringing in a little focus. Since I've been using the "over the shoulder, over the snare, both equal from the kick and snare Glyn John's (but he didn't invent it) technique... (whew), most of my toms come from the OHs. I much prefer toms mic'ed with some distance.

 

 

I try and have most of the tone of the toms come from the overheads and have the close-mics offer a bit of definition. This doesn't always happen for a variety of reasons (the drummer wants more of the close-miced sound, for instance, or I don't like the tone from the overheads for whatever reason), but that's what I *try* and do.

[seaneldon]

if you're not gonna mic every tom, i don't really see the point in micing the floor tom. at least not in the context of basic rock drum music. instead, try and spend a little more time placing your overheads and a kick mic to get the real balance of the kit. in a lot of situations, this kind of three mic drum setup can be just what the doctor ordered. it takes a bit of care to make sure you get proper balance of the top of the kit (skins), with the kick mic being more about the front of the kit (thuds). maybe check out getting a nice large diaphragm condenser for a front of kick mic, and then you've got something to also use on voice, guitars and amps, pretty much anything. depending on the kind of budget you've got for this, it could probably be an excellent way to go about it.

[Majoria]

I've done many takes with 3 mics and cannot get any definition from the toms. I'm not necessarily after the 80's hair band style with very up front toms but it should be closer to that than say 60's music with toms very hollow and distant. Basically the overheads don't give the toms any punch or depth and I hope to add that with the tom mics. The floor tom was the one suffering the most. Hopefully my next purchase will be a second overhead.

[TBush]

 

if you're not gonna mic every tom, i don't really see the point in micing the floor tom. at least not in the context of basic rock drum music. instead, try and spend a little more time placing your overheads and a kick mic to get the real balance of the kit. in a lot of situations, this kind of three mic drum setup can be just what the doctor ordered. it takes a bit of care to make sure you get proper balance of the top of the kit (skins), with the kick mic being more about the front of the kit (thuds). maybe check out getting a nice large diaphragm condenser for a front of kick mic, and then you've got something to also use on voice, guitars and amps, pretty much anything. depending on the kind of budget you've got for this, it could probably be an excellent way to go about it.

 

 

 

Good point- for years I just used an SM91 in the kick, but recently have been adding a LDC for front of kick- adds a nice bit of *phoom* that would have otherwise been EQ'd into the track. And then use it for vocals!

[alphajerk]

i have to FULLY disagree with that notion for ROCK music. nothing is better [besides kick] than a thumping floor tom, and close mic'd is the ONLY way to get that punch in the mix really.

 

i think the LEAST i would ever record for a kit would be:

kick

snare top/side

toms

overheads

 

so a 4 piece kit would have 6 mics minimum.

 

harder to add later than it is to take away. but what i do add on top of those for options are:

FOK

rooms [2x pairs]

omni on rim of kick

ribbon on beater of kick/springs on snare taking advantage of its F8

blumein stereo ribbbon OH

split OH [using the kick/snare centerline]

kick inside [dynamic]

kick outside [ldc]

snare top

snare side [works great with a F8 pattern with the hat in the null]

 

 

i have heard too many people try the 3mic technique for rock and i never enjoy those drums on the albums its done on... sure it sounds "old-school", but unless the band is super retro... its a mistake that will frustrate you in the mix.

[Majoria]

I do have an AT4040 that I could put in front of the kick and see what that does.

 

alphajerk - I'm confused as to the difference between your basic requisite overheads and the optional split overheads. Where do you position your base overheads if they are not split via centerline already? Just straight up left and right with kick being the center?

[UstadKhanAli]

 

I've done many takes with 3 mics and cannot get any definition from the toms. I'm not necessarily after the 80's hair band style with very up front toms but it should be closer to that than say 60's music with toms very hollow and distant. Basically the overheads don't give the toms any punch or depth and I hope to add that with the tom mics. The floor tom was the one suffering the most. Hopefully my next purchase will be a second overhead.

 

 

I think a lot of this depends on the music and the type of drummer and room you have. At any rate, I get tone and punch and depth from the toms using just the overheads. What the close mics do for me is (besides obviously making the toms sound "closer") add more definition and bottom end.

[Non de Guerre]

I agree with Sean - try something like the "recorderman" setup + kick. That's just three mics and it kills.

 

But if you want, look for an ATM25 on the used market. Heck, get two - one for kick, one for floor tom. Excellent on both.

[Warhead]

For toms, rack or floor, check out CAD M179 mics. They are the greatest tom mic I have ever encountered sound wise and ease of placement wise, I own 3 for this use but they do many things well. Deep with excellent attack, and the low-mids don't get boxy sounding. Dynamic mics sound like cardboard boxes by comparison now and I can't go back.

 

I like having the same mic on all toms and the M179 gives me attack consistency, but depth and boom on large toms.

 

Set to hypercardioid and engage the pad, also they are side address so your cables aren't sticking up into your cymbals.

 

On outer kick it's my go to mic also. Flat down to 10hZ.

 

War

[alphajerk]

 

I do have an AT4040 that I could put in front of the kick and see what that does. alphajerk - I'm confused as to the difference between your basic requisite overheads and the optional split overheads. Where do you position your base overheads if they are not split via centerline already? Just straight up left and right with kick being the center?

 

 

no, usually one is down low towards the ride and the other up high opposite the ride mic using that same "centerline" and both are equidistant from that centerline [just use a mic cable to measure each]. those might be my only if i dont use a stereo ribbon in blumein, maybe i might use dual ribbons split. or LDC's. not a fan of SDC much as OH mics for some reason.

 

 

and its really whats his name johns 3 mic technique, but would say it kills for saturated rock at all. maybe light rock, or americana...

[alcohol]

To get a good sound on a floor tom you NEED to position the mic and angle it correctly. I can't tell you how, you need to experiment, just changing the angle a bit on a cardoid mic on a floor tom has dramatic differences. Get some sound isolating headphones or an assistant and move that mic until it sounds right.

[alphajerk]

plus the typical EQ curve is always a plus... more so than placement, less so than tuning.

[Bang]

The Audix D6 is a great on kick. I actually like to use the Audix in the kick (depending on how aggressive I want the attack, I point closer to the beater), and then sometimes I'll use ANOTHER one on the outside of the kick. With the outside mic, cut all the high end and then run it through some sort of subsonic synth, like the dbx. Then mix those two signals for some real power! For floor tom, D-4 or even D-6 works. With the D4 you need to carve out a little of the 400Hz area, but it still works nicely.