Jump to content

How do you get realistic drum sounds without a real drummer?


Recommended Posts

  • Members

I just upgraded from a Zoom 1266 mrs multitrack 16b bit sound to a Korg d3200 24 bit sound. I think the 24 bit sounds quite a bit better. Although I love the sound of the new Korg and effects and operation the built in drum machine is lacking compared to the Zoom. I really thought the Zoom had a nice drum machine. The trouble is my Zoom got struck by lightening and I have to send it back to Zoom for them to look at it could cost anywhere from $100 to $200 to fix it. If I fix I would send the midi out from the Zoom to the midi in of the Korg to use the Zooms drum sounds. The korg is more like a metronome and has only one fill on each rhythmn you cannot edit the drum patterns. Since I won't be using a real drummer most of the time I'm wondering is it worth it to fix the Zoom. Do the people on this forumn use drum machines or loops or a sequencer. What works best for you sound more realistic and easy to create

I also wanted to bypass the Korgs pre amp it looks like the only way I could do that if I bought a mic preamp with a digital out. Since the D3200 does not have but one small option for digital input (s/pdif), any outboard preamps will have to use the balanced TRS jacks on top, using analog connections. Will an outboard preamp make that big of a difference to the quality of the sound input into the D3200, or would this just be a redundant upgrade? I'm looking into the following preamps, all are 8 channel balanced.

 

Focusrite Octopre Platinum

Presonus Digimax 96k

Mackie Onyx 800R

Do you know of any manufactures that make pre amps with digital out?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I dont know of any "never looked" hardware made live sounding drum machines but you could get a decent keyboard with decent samples built in, or use a sampler and make your own samples/download good ones. The best real sounding go to drums for me are the EZdrummer BFH kits which humanise without you having to program volocity changes. :) the require a pc though and a sequencer :) you could rig the midi from your multi into a pc and send the drums back and add many more instruments as you can get lituraly any sound from a pc now.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

If you want realistic (and naturalistic) sounding drums, as apposed to heavily pre-processed drums, then I'm not sure if any external box is going to cut it. It kind of would seem that it requires a LOT of data for a lot of multi-velocity samples, as with BFD or DFH or other soft synth drum kits. I used BFD and it can sound quite realistic if you use it right.

 

Here is a little sample ditty I did, using BFD, Dimension Pro, and Amplitube/Ampeg guitar/bass amp sims. It's just a simple thing that I did as a test after moving to Amplitube/Ampeg, so it's not going to set the world on fire or anything, but you can hear that the drums are pretty dang realistic:

 

http://www.charmedquark.com/Web2/TmpAudio/EverywhereAreSignsPreview2.wma

 

I was going for a pretty naturalistic sound here. You can apply whatever processing you want to get other sounds. But if you just want highly processed drums, you might prefer something that just provides canned ones and void the work of processing them yourself.

 

It doesn't necessarily require a computer. You can use a dedicated VST host to host them and trigger them via MIDI. Here's a nice little video from fxpansion.com that demonstrates BFD via such a host.

 

http://www.fxpansion.com/index.php?page=10&tab=84

 

It's the first video at the top.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Performer & Studio owner for over 40 years >>>

 

Kurzweil racks ---the Roland brains--ALesis DM Pro ---this little goodie http://www.alternatemode.com/synths_ketron.shtml

 

Live & in the Studio :::: we favor the Kurzweils , -- great , tweakable samples and 10 outputs to your board . The Roland offers multi outputs, as well as, the ALesis . Then you have separate drums, on each track , and can control your percussion > at mixdown.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Get an unreal drummer!

 

Honestly, do the best you can but I've never heard any program that was able to mimick or create a unique drum groove with a live band, so as you work on whatever project you're doing, keep that in mind. If you're going for a 'real' drummer sound, there's only one way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I don't believe that's true. Using a drum synth doesn't imply a human isn't playing the drums. I play all my drums myself, though I do it on a pad. That keeps the human dynamics and inconsistencies. The drum synth (BFD in my case) is just providing the sounds, nothing more.

 

So there's a difference between a drum machine and a drum synth. Which one works best for you depends on what kind of music you are doing. Some music requires an inhumanly precise and repetitive hypnotic type of drumming and can probably do well with a drum machine.

 

Watch the fxpansion video I linked to above. He's using BFD via a Muse Receptor and playing them on a ZenDrum, which provides great dynamics and naturalistic playing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Tips from a drummer:

 

1) Whenever possible, PLAY IT. Bash it on a keyboard, a trigger pad, V-Drums, whatever. Just don't, ever, ever, ever sequence it. The note velocities never come out right otherwise and without those natural velocities it just sounds fake.

 

2) EQ and compression can make even a drum machine sound good

 

3) If you REALLY need good samples, but studio time and make them. How much could it cost you to have them set up some mics on a quality kit and bash out a few hits on each drum? $50? Small price to pay for good drum sounds. Some sample libraries cost $1k or more for good sounds, after all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
  • Members

As someone who has been deeply frustrated by the "human dynamics and inconsistancies" of a real drummer, I'm appreciating the fact that my Cubase-sequenced BFD can actually keep a steady tempo for a whole song, doesn't forget parts, does exactly what I ask with no bitching, and - most importantly - doesn't drink all my beer. Maybe I just need to find a decent drummer. ;)

 

Actually, for my own home recordings, I'm limited to tracking as quietly as possible (DI guitars and bass, MIDI-controlled VSTi's, etc.) My family and neighbors would have serious issues if I tried to record live drums during my usual late night sessions. The fact that I don't have the space for a kit is an issue, too. I've been VERY impressed with the sounds and tweakability of the BFD software. For my needs, it's perfect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

but you can hear that the drums are pretty dang realistic:



 

 

Sorry but they're not. I've noticed myself if I listen too much to computer drums I "forget" how real drums sound. Maybe that's happened to you aswell? The single hits, of course, sound realistic. But it doesn't sound like a human playing it, for a two reasons:

 

1) You use the same velocity on every hit on the same cymbal or drum

2) When a drum is hit twice (like a snare-drum), the second hit sounds different from the first. The sample player has to know that. In your case, your sample player don't, and you get the "machine gun effect". This is the easiest way to spot computer drums and electronic drum kits - and it really sounds terrible. But for the person playing it, you quickly forget it doesn't really sound like that.

 

They used to have some well programmed drum-tracks over at naturalstudio.co.uk - the most comprehensive and best sampled kit as far as I'm concerned. I'll see if I can find what I'm thinking of.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

all these are the natural studio kit.

 

A programmed drum-track:

http://files.keyfax.com/forums/user-files/301390-ns_kit7.mp3

 

another programmed drum-track, with music. Ok, you can really hear this is made on a computer, but it's ok.

http://files.keyfax.com/forums/user-files/301391-ns_kit7phatphunk.mp3

 

 

 

http://files.keyfax.com/forums/user-files/308087-Barry%20Funk.mp3

This is played on electronic drums and midi to daw. I think.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Following up on what Flaat said

 

There are a lot of good drum programs out there, but it's all on you, you can make just about anything sound like a real drummer, even with quantizing.

 

The first priority is touch sensitivity, and the rest is using different drums sounds, one of course should be a hard snare, but then you need snares that hit different ways, like a real drummer does. There are some nice soft snares that you can use that duplicate the sticks resting on the snare and buzzing a bit after a hit. You also want to alternate short and long snares. You can duplicate the human element just by imagining what a drummer will actually play like, things like making a kick that quickly follows another softer than the previous one. The hats are also very important; using touch sensitivy on hats will nail it too. and when you quantize, try using the swing timings.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

Sorry but they're not. I've noticed myself if I listen too much to computer drums I "forget" how real drums sound. Maybe that's happened to you aswell? The single hits, of course, sound realistic. But it doesn't sound like a human playing it, for a two reasons:


1) You use the same velocity on every hit on the same cymbal or drum

2) When a drum is hit twice (like a snare-drum), the second hit sounds different from the first. The sample player has to know that. In your case, your sample player don't, and you get the "machine gun effect". This is the easiest way to spot computer drums and electronic drum kits - and it really sounds terrible. But for the person playing it, you quickly forget it doesn't really sound like that.

 

 

 

+2...thats two of many reasons

 

Another mistake is the 3-Armed drummer...Make sure there isnt a hi-hat, snare, and ride playing at the same time

 

Learn the physical mechanics of drumming

 

Think of how a drummer works...If a drummer hits a crash on the "1" beat with his hi-hat hand (the left hand is the snare hand), his hi-hat hand is occupied with the crash cymbal and needs to get back to the hi-hat....So, when programming a crash, I do not restart the hi-hat right on the "1" beat

 

Theres a billion of these little nuances. Rent a drum DVD and watch the mechanics

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
  • Members

I'm surprised no drummers have chimmed in on this. Not only do the quality of the drum libraries/samples you are using effects how 'real' your programmed drum sounds are and it's more then just using simple velocities. You've got to know how a real drummer plays, I've looked at MIDI files played by real drummers and they are hitting between 93 to 113 on Metal tracks. Rolls are typically 50-70, right hand hits are always ~4 more then left, down strokes are harder on snare hits, and the same applies to the feet as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Memory is an issue. I use BFD. If I had 16GB of memory, I could use the 128 velocity layer version. But that would require moving to 64 bit. So I have to use the 40 layer version, which of course does limit the level of expressiveness.

 

But, something like 4 more with one hand than the other probably isn't going to make a lot of difference in typical rock music because the compression and processing will tend to pretty get rid of such subtle expressiveness except in very quiet sections.

 

Here soon I'll post my latest song, on which I'm getting far better results with BFD than I've gotten before, both from better mixing and with better playing of the parts. I don't use any loops, I play them live. I was using an M-Audio Trigger Finger, but moved to a padKontrol which is much better though it requires a much lighter touch. And some of it comes from going back and adding variation manually where desirable, not using any sort of mechanical variation tools.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Something else to consider is post-processing of the performance. You can perform the drums on pads, change up the sounds on playback, etc., etc.

 

When I get to mixing, I always reduce the parts to audio (like a multi-mic'ed kit with a really, really good isolation :D ) and then process the audio tracks as I would a recorded drum track.

 

Here's some remedies for the "machine gun" effect.

 

#1 - The good electronic drum modules have multi sampled hits - left hand/right hand, different strike dynamics. Use them. It takes more time to set up the parts, but think like a drummer and use different hit samples instead of the same sample at different MIDI velocities.

 

#2 - If you don't have multi-samples, apply a gentle envelope filter or flange without feedback to modulate the sound a little bit. Subtle is the key, not jet plane noises superimposed, but a gentle variation blended in.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...