Logic vs Pro Tools - work flow...

[Def_Pearl_Pilot]

So, seeing as Logic's new version is out, which looks awesome BTW, I'm considering making the jump. I've moved to Macs now and I'm starting to see that Pro Tools in general is simply over priced.

 

For a while I thought that I would want to go with a Pro Tools TDM system. But the Apogee/Logic combo seems really awesome with better performance.

 

So the question is... how much of a difference is there switching from Pro Tools to Logic?

[Paully]

 

So the question is... how much of a difference is there switching from Pro Tools to Logic?

 

 

Personally, I'm waiting a few months till the 'non-Apple related' betas start appearing. That low Logic 8 price will probably be around for a while (if they have any sense). I'd check to make sure that any of your hardware is not PT exclusive, and is supported by Logic. Otherwise, it's always done the job for me, even tho it's kinda cryptic at times.. or at least it used to be. Apparently they've made some real improvements with the GUI. Oh, and no more f**king XSkey!

 

Best, Paul

[modul8]

There is a fair amount of difference actually. I left PT LE at 6.4 because I could no longer stand the stability issues between PT and Waves Gold I was experiencing. I switched to Logic Pro 7.x and UAD-1. It turns out a lot of the stability may have been caused by the RAM in my Mac, but, nevertheless, I now use Logic almost exclusively.

 

There is really a lot to like about ProTools in my opinion. It, ironically, is very logical in areas that Logic, perhaps, is not at first glance. However, as with many German engineered power tools, you have a tremendous amount of flexibility once you wrap your brain around the workflow.

 

To this day, I still prefer the stock delay in PT to most delay plugs I've used. I have no explanation other than I just like the way it sounds.

 

I would say it really depends on your needs. I make primarily electronic music, so when I made the switch, Logic was light years ahead in the music creation department and includes a serious toolkit of VIs and plug-ins.

 

ProTools mops the floor with Logic when it comes to editing. I can't speak to Logic Pro 8, but I think great strides have been made. The new comp and editing features along with the additions to the consolidated window are very compelling.

 

I think symphony, Logic, and a bit of high end DSP such as the UAD-1 make a very compelling alternative to a TDM system at a cheaper cost.

 

A Mac Pro with 23" display, symphony, AD 16X, DA 16x, Logic Pro Studio and three UAD-1 cards including all plug-ins can be had for less than $14,000.00 before taxes.

 

You are looking at spending $20,000.00 for the same CPU and I/O with ProTools HD. Not to mention TDM plug-ins come at quite a premium.

 

Need a high quality control surface you say? Icon is quite nice looking indeed, but, what about Euphonic System 5MC? Still well below the cost of a comparable ProTools rig at the moment. Oh.. and you can network Logic machines together for additional native Logic processing power.

 

I'm not talking down ProTools. I'm just saying there is a lot of power available at a noticeably cheaper cost. With the new pricing of Logic Pro Studio, it can hardly hurt to give it a try plus, it can always serve as a front end for PT TDM.

[Def_Pearl_Pilot]

Interestingly, I learned editing concepts from watching another engineer doing the work within Logic. I don't remember what version of Logic he was using but it looked pretty similar. I then applied that stuff to Pro Tools.

 

The new comp track feature is something that looks really awesome. I just wanted to get an idea of how drastic a change it would be.

[modul8]

Plan to spend time, serious time, with the Logic manual or, as in my case, Apple pro training books. The Logic Pro 7 manual is useless to my brain. Good for reference but, lousy for learning anything practical about using the app.

 

Basic cut, copy and paste functions are simply enough. It is when you get into the productivity/workflow aspects of the two apps that PT leaps ahead. Again, most of my editing is midi. I set the arrangement up and then lay audio on top. I don't have to perform a lot of editing or comping. Logic is good enough. PT is in a different league. If you are recording multiple tracks of live musicians, PT is likely where you will want to stay until LP8 has some updates behind it.

[Def_Pearl_Pilot]

 

Plan to spend time, serious time, with the Logic manual or, as in my case, Apple pro training books. The Logic Pro 7 manual is useless to my brain. Good for reference but, lousy for learning anything practical about using the app. Basic cut, copy and paste functions are simply enough. It is when you get into the productivity/workflow aspects of the two apps that PT leaps ahead. Again, most of my editing is midi. I set the arrangement up and then lay audio on top. I don't have to perform a lot of editing or comping. Logic is good enough. PT is in a different league. If you are recording multiple tracks of live musicians, PT is likely where you will want to stay until LP8 has some updates behind it.

 

 

Thanks very much for the honest opinions!

[danhops]

 

Plan to spend time, serious time, with the Logic manual or, as in my case, Apple pro training books. The Logic Pro 7 manual is useless to my brain. Good for reference but, lousy for learning anything practical about using the app. Basic cut, copy and paste functions are simply enough. It is when you get into the productivity/workflow aspects of the two apps that PT leaps ahead. Again, most of my editing is midi. I set the arrangement up and then lay audio on top. I don't have to perform a lot of editing or comping. Logic is good enough. PT is in a different league. If you are recording multiple tracks of live musicians, PT is likely where you will want to stay until LP8 has some updates behind it.

 

 

I've not touched 8 yet(we havent loaded it yet), but have fiddled with 7 and earlier versions and would have to agree with the above. For live musician recording, PT would be my choice. Logic is a very different beast.

 

BTW,I am considering getting logic for my small home rig, just so I have another tool under my belt when I decide to move on from my current gig.

[ctmusicman]

Logic Studio 8 vs Protools 7.3.

 

I use both Protools LE 7.3 and Logic 7. I just upgraded to Logic Studio 8 and must say it has way more feature then Protools. The soft synth and sample that it comes with blows away any other package out there. I mean Protools have the Ignition Pack 2 but it is nothing compared to Logic. I still prefer the editing in Protools but for making music Logic is by far the best. Too bad Protools does not come with OMF standard like other DAW it would really make it greate to create in Logic and Mix and Edit in Protools.

[diy guy]

the new 8 workflow is great, the quick swipe comp is amazing. logic now supports broadcast wav files for pro tools compatability, the plugins are fantastic sounding, the soft synths are great, it comes with 4 jam packs complete with orchestral and world instruments...all for 500$. no longer can one really say, "editing in logic sucks." its still behind pt in a few ways, but sucks it does not. unless your going protools HD, the choice is clear to me.

 

the only thing left that protools can do well that logic cant is beat detective. logics beatmapping totally sucks. that aaand youll need a mac, which is pricy, so the 500$ logic pricetag might not be all that $ saving, that considered.

[GloomGenerator]

I've been playing with audio for almost 10 years now, having started when I was playing in bands in high school. I started on Cakewalk Pro Audio 9, then to Sonar, then to Digital Performer on a shiny new Mac, then to Logic when MOTU pissed me off (I was trying to buy the DP5 upgrade and it kept saying my serial number was invalid :mad:). Now I've upgraded to Logic Studio.

 

I've never used PT, as I've never been able to justify the price you pay for their consumer/pro-sumer products, but I will say that Logic isn't nearly as bad as some people make it sound and Apple keeps making it easier. I've been playing with a lot of the new features and they blow my mind. I had to hit the books a couple of times, but, overall, it wasn't bad.

 

If you make the jump, a small suggestion that will increase your workflow my roughly a metric {censored}-ton - assign the tools menu to your right-click.

[GloomGenerator]

 

...that aaand youll need a mac, which is pricy, so the 500$ logic pricetag might not be all that $ saving, that considered.

 

 

Yeah, but don't you need a Digi-approved PC to run PT? I don't imagine they support generic beige-boxes. Again, never been a PT user, but I've heard some interesting stories about their requirements.

[Def_Pearl_Pilot]

 

Yeah, but don't you need a Digi-approved PC to run PT? I don't imagine they support generic beige-boxes. Again, never been a PT user, but I've heard some interesting stories about their requirements.

 

 

Getting Pro Tools to run on a PC is definitely an adventure. It's one of the reasons that I went to macs. Now I have far less headaches. There are still problems and the limitations of LE are starting to annoy me.

[gregorliddell]

Logic vs Pro Tools - work flow...

 

I also have both Pro Tools LE 7.3.1 and Logic 7.2.1 and I think they have different strengths. For tracking, live recording and editing audio, pro tools is the stronger tool. Playlists and all those functions are very neat. That said, it looks like Apple have done a lot of work in this space on 8 so we'll have to see.

 

When working with midi and audio it gets a bit more tricky. In Pro tools, the interface is useful in that you can see multiple tracks of audio and midi together in the arrange window but again this is available in Logic 8. My main frustration with pro tools LE though is the lack of automatic delay compensation for different buffer settings. Its such a basic thing and whilst you can do it manually if you're having to continually switch between different buffer sizes and then change between recording audio and midi, you can get a bit of timing "drift" in your tracks because they've been recorded against different buffer settings. And there's nothing worse than when you've got a bit of inspiration and you hit a buffer error and have to start fiddling with this stuff. In Logic its a complete non issue, you just change the buffer size and everything maintains its relative timing.

 

The other great thing about Logic is that you get everything in the box whereas with Pro Tools LE, you still have to buy plug-ins/tools for pitch correction, good reverbs, scoring etc. etc. It also doesn't do surround (without hacking), OMF (needs digitranslator $495 or video toolkit $895) or 48 tracks (music production toolkit $495 or video toolkit). Whilst some of these tools are in the factory pack, the hassle of authorising 11 + different products with different suppliers is much worse than the XS key. And when you move machines, its totally insane. I do think iLok is the solution here, but not everybody supports it :-(

 

To flip over again, Logic does do some odd & mysterious things especially with converting audio to score (which pro tools doesn't do at all) but from the early posts it looks like Logic 8 is more stable. On the Pro Tools side, I have always found it totally bullet proof once you've got a stable configuration.

 

As with the post above, I think as a composition tool, Logic is a better starting point whereas as a production tool, pro tools is better. That said, the lines are becoming increasingly blurred because both products are including features from the other and so ultimately we win because there is strong competition which is a good thing.

[Marshall Jeffer]

Qualitywise, there's no longer enough of a difference to warrant a Pro Tools TDM system's higher price. Apogee makes awesome cards so you're right on the money there.

 

Also, another thing to consider is you don't really know how Pro Tools is going to act with Leopard, while you can be sure Logic will work with it. Pro Tools hardware couldn't make the switch from Panther to Tiger; you had to buy all new hardware if you wanted Tiger compatibility.

[GloomGenerator]

 

Also, another thing to consider is you don't really know how Pro Tools is going to act with Leopard, while you can be sure Logic will work with it. Pro Tools hardware couldn't make the switch from Panther to Tiger; you had to buy all new hardware if you wanted Tiger compatibility.

 

 

That's the real bitch with Digi...they're {censored}ing vampires! They will suck every last dime out of you and then when something new comes out, they leave you with a choice of using old hard or software, or paying for a new system. Pretty shady, as far as I'm concerned.

 

Plus I'm told they don't support their LE systems for very long compared to other vendors' offerings.

[EngineGuitarist]

why must one upgrade every time something new comes out?

 

if it works, use it.

 

i know many updates to software dont add anything i want let alone NEED.

 

 

if you buy a 2007 accord do you expect a 2008 accord for free? no. yours works just fine even if it doesnt have some nifty new feature that doesnt really add much.

 

but hey its your choice.

 

ive been running PT LE with a 002r for the last 4 years and its still supported. how long do you need?

[GloomGenerator]

 

ive been running PT LE with a 002r for the last 4 years and its still supported. how long do you need?

 

 

It won't be supported much longer. As I recall support for the 001 vanished pretty quick after the 002 was launched. I remember an acquaintance of mine bitching about that. There's another example, actually. What if you had a Digi 001 and needed to replace your computer and the new one only had PCIe/PCI-X and your 001's PCI card was now incompatible? What would Digi say? "We're offering a PCIe upgrade for $XXX to current users." which is what MOTU did. Or, would they say "Buy the new Digi 002, for twice as much" when you called?

[Marshall Jeffer]

 

why must one upgrade every time something new comes out? if it works, use it. i know many updates to software dont add anything i want let alone NEED. if you buy a 2007 accord do you expect a 2008 accord for free? no. yours works just fine even if it doesnt have some nifty new feature that doesnt really add much. but hey its your choice. ive been running PT LE with a 002r for the last 4 years and its still supported. how long do you need?

 

 

PT LE is one thing, but the OP said he was thinking about a TDM system, which is quite a different story. A friend of mine spent a good 50k on his TDM system, then Mac switched from Panther to Tiger. Digi's Panther hardware still can't deal with Tiger, two years later. Anyone that bought that Panther Digi system is stuck in 16 bits...................unless they buy the new HD hardware which is 24bit. Only problem with getting that is Leopard comes out next month and you don't know how Digi hardware is going to act with it. Past history suggests that Digi is not going to like Leopard.

 

The interesting thing is their partner in crime, Apple, seem ready to screw Digi, because they've cut the price of Logic 8 in half and added tons of new features-and just before Leopard comes out.

[alcohol]

I used a DIGI 001 on PT 5.2 until last year on a 10 or 12 year old Beige G3. I upgraded to a used HD2 system on a used Apple Mac G5. I'm really happy with this setup. I don't hate Digidesign nor Apple.

 

The hardware and software companies are always innovating to make you spend more money. But you don't need to switch to the latest computer OS and the latest piece of hardware to create music. Don't buy the hype.

[Marshall Jeffer]

 

I used a DIGI 001 on PT 5.2 until last year on a 10 or 12 year old Beige G3. I upgraded to a used HD2 system on a used Apple Mac G5. I'm really happy with this setup. I don't hate Digidesign nor Apple. The hardware and software companies are always innovating to make you spend more money. But you don't need to switch to the latest computer OS and the latest piece of hardware to create music. Don't buy the hype.

 

 

 

The original poster thinks Pro Tools is now overpriced vs Logic, and I agree. He wants us to justify spending more money on Pro Tools

instead of just switching to Logic, and maybe someone else can do it, but I can't. I think Logic has a cheaper and smoother upgrade path, just in case you do want to upgrade. And I also think it was worth mentioning that Leopard is coming out next month and Pro Tools hardware compatibility is a realistic concern.

 

Of course, he also has the option of just sticking with the system he has now and saving his money, but he didn't ask us that.

[EngineGuitarist]

 

It won't be supported much longer. As I recall support for the 001 vanished pretty quick after the 002 was launched. I remember an acquaintance of mine bitching about that. There's another example, actually. What if you had a Digi 001 and needed to replace your computer and the new one only had PCIe/PCI-X and your 001's PCI card was now incompatible? What would Digi say? "We're offering a PCIe upgrade for $XXX to current users." which is what MOTU did. Or, would they say "Buy the new Digi 002, for twice as much" when you called?

 

 

do you realize the 001 was out for 6 years before support got dropped? how long do you want? 6 years is plenty. and btw, if your DAW involves 2 companies with 1 being the software/interface manufacturer and the other the computer manufacturer they are not responsible for failures of the others products. hence your old g4 died and now you have a 001 that you cant use.

 

easy solution. buy an old mac, or sell your 001 and get a new system. it isnt digidesign, or steinberg or whoever's fault your computer crapped out and {censored} has changed in the last few years.

 

its no different than when you buy a computer and 2 months later there's a newer better version. yours works fine and it is exactly what you knew you were buying.

 

if ya dont like it buy a tape machine:D

[EngineGuitarist]

 

PT LE is one thing, but the OP said he was thinking about a TDM system, which is quite a different story. A friend of mine spent a good 50k on his TDM system, then Mac switched from Panther to Tiger. Digi's Panther hardware still can't deal with Tiger, two years later. Anyone that bought that Panther Digi system is stuck in 16 bits...................unless they buy the new HD hardware which is 24bit. Only problem with getting that is Leopard comes out next month and you don't know how Digi hardware is going to act with it. Past history suggests that Digi is not going to like Leopard. The interesting thing is their partner in crime, Apple, seem ready to screw Digi, because they've cut the price of Logic 8 in half and added tons of new features-and just before Leopard comes out.

 

 

wait a minute here. you've either got your facts mixed up or your friend got rooked on his system. 50k for TDM as in the old TDM not HD? this was 2 years ago you say? you could buy an 888 24bit interface for a grand 2 years ago and the cards werent much more. did he build some sort of super computer with a PCI WALL???

 

16 bit? TDM has been 24bit for over 7 years if i remember correctly. so he spent 50k on this horribly outdated super TDM system 2 years ago?

 

now as for OS, if you spend 50k on a DAW and its working fine why change the OS to one that isnt supported? OS's dont come out immediately approved for DAW's. apple is the one exception obviously but its the OS. who cares. you want widgets or a DAW?

 

and in terms of leopard, why do you need it immediately? it will get approved. wait. its no big deal. really. i dont get why people have such a hard time with this.

 

oh and btw, what the {censored} is digi's "panther hardware"?

 

i cant wait for a answer to these points.:poke:

[Marshall Jeffer]

My bad. My friend says he has a Pro Tools 24 system, so it is 24 bit. each one of the cards cost about 4k and he has 10 of them. (he's got a 13 slot expansion chassis)He's stuck using a G4 because G5 has a different type of PCI slot. His system crashes a lot because he keeps trying to load the latest plugin that people always ask for.

 

I called it Panther Hardware because it won't work with Tiger.

 

 

now as for OS, if you spend 50k on a DAW and its working fine why change the OS to one that isnt supported? OS's dont come out immediately approved for DAW's. apple is the one exception obviously but its the OS. who cares. you want widgets or a DAW?

 

 

Answering the original poster's question I tried to point out that one of the limitations of a TDM Pro Tools system, which he said he was considering buying, was you couldn't switch OS because of the hardware. If he buys Logic he won't be limited by hardware and a patch can have him up to date with the new OS right away.

 

 

and in terms of leopard, why do you need it immediately? it will get approved. wait. its no big deal. really. i dont get why people have such a hard time with this.

 

 

Nobody needs Leopard immediately. Nobody needs 8gigs of RAM immediately, but it's nice to have those 4 slots for the future instead of 2. Nobody wants to crash immediately after leaving the lot with a new car, but it's nice to have airbags for the future, just in case.

[EngineGuitarist]

Nobody needs Leopard immediately. Nobody needs 8gigs of RAM immediately, but it's nice to have those 4 slots for the future instead of 2. Nobody wants to crash immediately after leaving the lot with a new car, but it's nice to have airbags for the future, just in case.

 

planning for the future is one thing. but if you dont have much cash then using your current comp to the fullest can save you alot. and if you have an older comp then a slightly older software version could save you CPU power. it varies ALOT. but thats not a debate i want to get into.

 

 

anyway, i find it hard to beleive you're giving system buying advice when you dont even know the correct specs of your friends rig and according to you, if you are right, that your friend paid roughly 4 times more than what he should have.

 

thats a spectacular example to cite. particularly when its suppose to be because of the PROGRAM being used.

[GloomGenerator]

if ya dont like it buy a tape machine:D

 

No, I won't buy a tape machine, I'll buy the DAW of my choice that allows for the most flexibility, features and most reasonable upgrade path. Because I like having the most obscenely specc'd machine I can afford at the time. I have 6GB of RAM, by the way

 

You're entitled to your opinion, but your posts came across like your opinion was the "right" one. Perhaps you didn't mean it that way, but that was my impression.

 

Keep on rockin'