Members Marshall Jeffer Posted October 5, 2007 Members Share Posted October 5, 2007 Got a better example, check out the "Song Remains The Same" Album and watch the dvd. The album is noticably faster than the live concert on dvd. In other words, every song on the album is faster than the exact same song on the dvd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sam C Posted October 6, 2007 Members Share Posted October 6, 2007 i messed around a bit today with zep I through Song Remains The Same. My standard A tuning matches every song perfectly that is not an open tuning (not that i checked every song). so.....? zep I was recorded with a tele not a les paul. fwiw! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Marshall Jeffer Posted October 6, 2007 Members Share Posted October 6, 2007 Compare each song on the Song Remains The Same video DVD with the same song on Song Remains The Same Album. All instruments were played detuned, then varisped up to the correct tuning. Test tuning on the video dvd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Marshall Jeffer Posted October 6, 2007 Members Share Posted October 6, 2007 Yeah, everyone knows Jimmy Page played a telecaster in the studio on a lot of Zep recordings, and used thicker strings on it to get a fatter sound out of it. I only saw the Les Pauls though. Didn't see any 12 string guitars or double necks either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Marshall Jeffer Posted October 6, 2007 Members Share Posted October 6, 2007 Engineers that can back up what I'm saying are Andy Johns, Eddie Kramer, George Chkiantz, Ron Nevison, and Keith Hardwood. If you can get in touch with any of those guys, they may be able to help you, because they were recording engineers for Zep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sam C Posted October 6, 2007 Members Share Posted October 6, 2007 over the years i have read many interviews....also seen a few interesting ones with page and plant. i have never heard this before. tuning down is not unusual. hendrix and vaughn always did. seems like after all of these years and all of the info available this might have been mentioned before. as for contacting andy johns, etc, to have them verify your comments. it is a childish request. as if i would try and as if they would respond. once you asked for me (or whoever) to contact the engineers to verify your story, it took any credibility you might have had away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Marshall Jeffer Posted October 6, 2007 Members Share Posted October 6, 2007 Well, I only did it because the previous guy that essentially called me a liar posted this: maybe i can ask these specific questions to engineers who've worked on these albums. they arent that hard to find so i'll try. ok so i already heard back from mr terry manning on the issue. he mixed LZ III among doing other things for them if i recall correctly. He contacted Terry Manning, who was a mix engineer on Led Zep 3, but I wanted a recording engineer, so I found this link: http://www.iem.ac.ru/zeppelin/docs/Discography.html#ledzep3 Now I'm going to contact some of these engineers myself, but if I post the results people will still probably call me a {censored}ing liar, so hopefully someone else can get in contact with one of these guys. As for my credibility, I have it in life, just not on this message board because I've had a conflict with a guy, he got mad at me in another thread, and came out of the blue and attacked me in this one. Check your private messages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Marshall Jeffer Posted October 7, 2007 Members Share Posted October 7, 2007 Just spoke with Sam C in private messages and came away extremely impressed not only with his guitar knowledge, but also by his knowledge of Led Zeppelin. He pointed out to me that low action does not=harder to play guitar because some guitarists actually prefer to play low action, so I was wrong about Jimmy having a guitar that was difficult for everyone to play. I went by the word of one guitarist, Andy Gee, whose word I usually take as gospel. I think maybe Jimmy's guitar was probably just difficult for Andy to play, maybe Andy prefers high action, I'll call him and ask. Andy is a sensational guitarist in his own right though. The thing is though, Jimmys guitars all had extremely low action, and I would stake my life on Andy's opinion on that, because I respect his opinion that much. I probably have several advantages from a listening standpoint that I hadn't taken into consideration. One, being a DJ, I have turntables with pitch controls on them, so I can speed up Led Zeppelin 1 and see how it matches up with all the other Zep albums. Not pitchwise, because it was recorded with standard tuning and speeding it up will take it into the wrong key. But the similarity of the note length and resonance on various instruments, not only on the guitars but the drums and vocals also, is unmistakable to me. I also have CD decks with pitch control, so I can slow down the "The Remains The Same" CD and match it up both pitchwise and speedwise with the movie dvd almost perfectly, and the only thing preventing me from locking up songs completely from start to finish is the CD has a ton of edits; lots of parts were cut out of the live performance that I see on the dvd. I've worked with varispeed extensively in my career, not since the 90's with the advance of time stretching technology, but before that I would have to speed up the tape on songs, sometimes from like 90 BPMs or lower to 125+.When doing that I would have to harmonize everything down to the correct tuning. Even when doing that and getting everything in the correct key, you could hear the same thing every time; differences in note length and resonance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Marshall Jeffer Posted October 7, 2007 Members Share Posted October 7, 2007 Lol, dont take my word for it! Roger Giffin can make you an exact replica of Jimmy's main Les Paul! : http://www.giffinguitars.com/jimmy_page_pics.htm phone numbers and emails are on the web site if you want to inquire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sam C Posted October 7, 2007 Members Share Posted October 7, 2007 Lol, dont take my word for it! Roger Giffin can make you an exact replica of Jimmy's main Les Paul! :http://www.giffinguitars.com/jimmy_page_pics.htmphone numbers and emails are on the web site if you want to inquire. the thing is Gibson does not make these any more and Giffin would not be allowed from his shop in Portland.......unless he finds a way to strike a deal with both Gibson and JP. i really do not know how well this guitar did for Gibson........like many "artist series" they seem targeted more to the collecter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Marshall Jeffer Posted October 7, 2007 Members Share Posted October 7, 2007 Could someone conceivably go to him though and say they wanted a Les Paul with Jimmy Page specs? It wouldn't be an "official" replica, but if someone gave him their Les Paul I think he could do something with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sam C Posted October 7, 2007 Members Share Posted October 7, 2007 yeah, i think he would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dave Martin Posted October 8, 2007 Members Share Posted October 8, 2007 Got a better example, check out the "Song Remains The Same" Album and watch the dvd. The album is noticably faster than the live concert on dvd. In other words, every song on the album is faster than the exact same song on the dvd. Playing songs faster on live dates than in the studio isn't at all uncommon; why do you think that it proves anything except that the band plays songs faster live?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted October 8, 2007 Members Share Posted October 8, 2007 Playing songs faster on live dates than in the studio isn't at all uncommon; why do you think that it proves anything except that the band plays songs faster live?. Dave, that's not what he's saying. He's saying that the same performance is faster on the CD (iow, the previously released version of "The Song Remains The Same") than the DVD (again, of the same performance). As I don't have either, I couldn't tell you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Marshall Jeffer Posted October 8, 2007 Members Share Posted October 8, 2007 It's exactly the same performance, done in New York Madison Square Garden in 1973. "The Song Remains The Same" film (or dvd) and the "The Song Remains The Same film" soundtrack album are the same concert. The same performance. The performance on the CD has been sped up from its orginal state, the original state, speed and pitch of the performance can be found on the movie DVD. My mistake, I assumed everyone that shot down what i said had access to both the CD and the DVD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Marshall Jeffer Posted October 8, 2007 Members Share Posted October 8, 2007 Just one quick simple question to the next person that dismisses speed and pitch changes; have you listened to "The Song Remains The Same" CD and DVD in the last 24 hours? It may seem trivial but I feel it's a valid question. I'm in New Jersey right now, when I get back to my DJ setup in England, I'll post the exact pitch and speed % changes here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Marshall Jeffer Posted October 8, 2007 Members Share Posted October 8, 2007 A couple more points about what I posted. A. How would I, not being a guitarist, know that Jimmy Page's guitar was very low action? B. How would I know The Tom Jone's album "The Lead and How To Swing It"and Page Plant Project "No Quarter" was recorded at the same recording studio (http://www.olympicstudios.co.uk/) at the same time? C. Isn't it a bit ridiculous to assume that everyone reading this thread either doesn't have "The Song Remains The Same" movie DVD or will never, ever get it and listen to it? If I'm wrong about the pitch/speed changes, anyone that has the DVD can post here and instantly prove me wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Marshall Jeffer Posted October 8, 2007 Members Share Posted October 8, 2007 Omg, my production went uncredited on the Tom Jones album and I couldn't find my songwriting credits anywhere, it seems everywhere the album is listed it just shows the producer. I finally found a place that credits me with keyboards and mixing: http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/store/artist/album/0,,201929,00.html My publisher says he'll send me a copy of my songwriting credits from the MCPS in London later, but *phew*, if someone would've challenged me yesterday on whether I'd even worked with Tom Jones at all, I would've had a hard time proving it! *edit* Just realized what I'm asking people to believe. 1st, nobody's going to believe I even worked with Tom Jones, being a black dance music producer/DJ. Lol, and nobody's going to believe that coincidentely, the week I produced Tom Jones Jimmy Page and Robert Plant were recording in the same building in another room AND, not only did I speak to them, but I was backstage at their Royal Albert Hall performance. And the real hooter is getting people to believe that my friend Andy Groeber actually borrowed one of Jimmy Page's guitars for a few days! A DJ asking guitarists, engineers, and Zep fans to believe that every Zep album since Zep2 was recorded at a slower speed with detuned instruments, then sped up to the right tuning is also asking for it. Sorry, but the original poster asked a question and I tried to answer it to the best of my ability. The smart thing would be to stick to the dance forums where I'm treated like god, instead of a forum where nobody knows me from Adam and guys come out of the woodwork and call me a liar, but I love recording and even after 20+ years in the music biz and 200+ records, I still learn a lot, and I've learned stuff here. I'll try not to relate my life's experiences in the future to avoid the same result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dave Martin Posted October 8, 2007 Members Share Posted October 8, 2007 Dave, that's not what he's saying. He's saying that the same performance is faster on the CD (iow, the previously released version of "The Song Remains The Same") than the DVD (again, of the same performance). As I don't have either, I couldn't tell you...Ah - I just re-read the post, and you're right. On the other hand, it's not uncommon for bands to play stuff slower than the record either - especially when copious amounts of alchohol and drugs are involved... I saw the Houses of the Holy tour in Dallas; it was mighty drunk up there on the stage... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sam C Posted October 8, 2007 Members Share Posted October 8, 2007 *edit* Just realized what I'm asking people to believe. 1st, nobody's going to believe I even worked with Tom Jones, being a black dance music producer/DJ. Lol, and nobody's going to believe that coincidentely, the week I produced Tom Jones Jimmy Page and Robert Plant were recording in the same building in another room AND, not only did I speak to them, i am not sure i agree. talking with folks who are famous, kinda famous, etc is not that unusual or that big of a deal. your comments about the way zep recorded would bring disbelief no mattter who you were. well, unless you were JP or Andy Johns. zep is huge, even all of these years later, and the discussions have been endless about their recordings, techniques, rampages on the road, etc. your information has never been mentioned before so it is likely to be met with disbelief. i find that normal. i don't doubt you recorded tom jones. i have no reason to. but, until i get a person of first hand knowledge tell me that zep recorded slow and sped it up i will be skeptical. besides, the implications are huge. plant can't sing at 440? jones can't keep the bass up to speed unless it is slowed down. because, if it was just for the sake of something harmless it would not have been a "secret" all of these years. your comments about going back to where you are god get back to that credibitilty issue.........maybe a more low key apporach like.....and I could give a {censored} if anybody believes me would serve you better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Marshall Jeffer Posted October 8, 2007 Members Share Posted October 8, 2007 until i get a person of first hand knowledge tell me that zep recorded slow and sped it up i will be skeptical. You won't need a person with first hand knowledge if you watch "The Song Remains The Same" DVD, you'll have first hand proof. I believe you'll be able to hear the difference right away. My offer in private remains the same. besides, the implications are huge. plant can't sing at 440? jones can't keep the bass up to speed unless it is slowed down. If the implications are huge, that could probably explain why you've never read it in an interview. However , Plant sang all the Zep songs live. Jones played whatever was on record also. I'm saying, maybe just maybe Plant sang more comfortably with everything tuned lower. Maybe Jimmy was able to get a little trickier than he may get at a higher speed. Maybe the band was able get a little more groovy at a slower tempo. I know this stuff and Zeppelin is still my favorite band ever. I think the things they did in the studio were pure genius and will never be duplicated, because in todays digital music world no one would ever consider half the things they did. Well, a guy came out the blue and told me everything I'd posted was bull{censored}. I tried to walk away: Not going to bother answering you on anything else until the chip falls off your shoulder. But he kept going: just seems like you either go on hearsay or only know half the facts. and if there's one thing im sick of its mis-information on the net. soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo................... .......i think that smell is finally leaving the room Is that low key? your comments about going back to where you are god get back to that credibitilty issue......... Just say the word, I'll give you a link.......... maybe a more low key apporach like.....and I could give a {censored} if anybody believes me would serve you better? Maybe it would, but not in the music business, where your entire income is dependent on how prominent you are. I would say my succcess in my field is the direct result of me not being low key. I need a mod to get this entire thread deleted. I believe eventually my point is going to be proven without a shadow of a doubt, and now I'm starting to worry. If you've read every Zep interview ever, and none of this has been mentioned, then maybe Zep doesn't want anyone to know. I'll contact you privately when hear back from some key engineers/people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted October 8, 2007 Members Share Posted October 8, 2007 . but, until i get a person of first hand knowledge tell me that zep recorded slow and sped it up i will be skeptical. besides, the implications are huge. plant can't sing at 440? jones can't keep the bass up to speed unless it is slowed down. because, if it was just for the sake of something harmless it would not have been a "secret" all of these years.r? It's not really a "secret" if it appears in interviews and books, is it? It was certainly done for the vocals. I don't know what it means to sing "440". You don't tune a person, right? They employed this method, as was fairly common by the late '60s-early '70s, as it was pioneered by Les Paul in the late '40s-early '50s, about twenty years earlier. Listen to "The Immigrant Song". Then listen to any live performance of him singing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sam C Posted October 8, 2007 Members Share Posted October 8, 2007 If you've read every Zep interview ever, and none of this has been mentioned, then maybe Zep doesn't want anyone to know. I'll contact you privately when hear back from some key engineers/people. i don't want to imply i have read every interview. when i was younger, i read all i could find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sam C Posted October 8, 2007 Members Share Posted October 8, 2007 It's not really a "secret" if it appears in interviews and books, is it? It was certainly done for the vocals.I don't know what it means to sing "440". You don't tune a person, right? They employed this method, as was fairly common by the late '60s-early '70s, as it was pioneered by Les Paul in the late '40s-early '50s, about twenty years earlier.Listen to "The Immigrant Song". Then listen to any live performance of him singing it. standard A tuning is what i mean. if the instruments are there i hope the voice is. varispeed for a song or two is different than all albums. it states nowhere that i have read that this was done on all songs for all albums. i don't recall page talking about using varispeed at all. now, maybe he did but every song on every album but zep I? what books or magz can i find this info in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Marshall Jeffer Posted October 8, 2007 Members Share Posted October 8, 2007 what books or magz can i find this info in? Without sounding like a broken record, try your own ears. I told you, it's plain as day on the DVD and you'll hear the difference within 30 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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