Members Branwyn Posted January 6, 2008 Members Share Posted January 6, 2008 I'm 25 and have a loooong background in music performance (mostly folk/Celtic and some classical/musical theatre) and theatre performance, production and design. I've been thinking alot about getting into audio and live sound engineering, but I have no clue where to start or if it's the right choice for me. I've been looking at the SAE Institute here in Atlanta and in London (supposed to be moving there...). The SAE here in ATL offers an Associates degree but no bachelors. Is that piece of paper something I really need to worry too much about, so long as I get the training? As to my worrying about it being the right choice for me, I loooove music, read music and know basic theory, sing, and play a couple instruments, and like working with computers (but don't know much about the technical end of them). However, I don't have a strong background at all in physics and math, and was never extremely good at either (pretty much kept a low B/occasional high C at best in those subjects in high school, while I excelled at music performance, English, social studies/history and life sciences). I'm worried my right-brainedness might hold me back in the audio engineering field. But, I have helped musician friends pick apart their recordings and come up with ideas to enhance and better them, and have been told I'd probably make a great producer. I am more interested in live sound, especially as it may give me the opportunity to tour. Any input, thoughts, recommended reading, etc. that anyone could throw my way would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance. (x-posted in the live sound/production and recording forums...sorry if you see this more than once!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 Gearmike, over on the Live Sound forum, will probably have some good suggestions for you in that regard. He's a great guy, and certainly has the "credits" and experience, and really knows his stuff - both in a live setting, as well as in the studio. I don't think you have to have a degree to have a career in a studio. Most folks are more interested in what you know, and in what you can do, as opposed to the "piece of paper". However, please don't take that as a slight towards traditional education, because that's certainly "a" path towards your goal; just not the "only" path IMO. Physics and math are important in an audio engineer's world, but that doesn't mean you have to be a "rocket scientist" to handle it. If you can handle first year high school algebra and geometry and understand logarithmic scales, you can probably handle the math part. As far as physics, understanding things like inertia, vibration and wave propagation are the biggies, but a general understanding of physics isn't going to hurt. A producer has less focus on those things generally than an engineer does. For a producer, IMO, the most important things are a good musical background, strong arranging chops, and excellent communication and interpersonal skills. They have to be able to see the "big picture", and envision how all the various parts and pieces are going to fit into and complete the puzzle. Both producers and engineers should have a good understanding of computer technology. Engineers need to be able to set up and configure computer systems, while producers at least need to be comfortable enough with them to use them as musical / production tools. Psych classes (seriously) are helpful to both producers and engineers, as are communication classes. You have to be able to adapt yourself to the needs of the artists and musicians, and you have to be able to speak their language. Not just the musical language (which IMO is very important - even for non-musician engineers), but you also have to be able to communicate effectively enough to be able to come to a common understanding of abstract terms and descriptions. If a guitarist says it's "too red sounding", you have to figure out how to ask them "what the h3!! 'red' means" in a way that gets what they mean into YOUR head, without frustrating or angering the musician. A traditional college can help provide you with the basic education you'd need to handle the jobs, but is no guarantee of success in them. Similarly, a well-motivated individual who wanted to take a "self-education" path may be successful, and the traditional industry model of apprentice and internship shouldn't be completely discounted either. Spending some time watching experienced pros at work can teach you a lot. However, the demand for good engineers isn't what it once was, and the entry level jobs - runner and second engineer - at large commercial studios are probably declining along with the declining numbers of large commercial studios, and the influx of large numbers of "recording school grads" means the competition for those declining number of positions is increasing, not declining. It's never been a particularly easy field to break into, and it's getting harder. I'm not trying to talk anyone out of those types of jobs, but you really have to be driven, and you really have to work your buns off, and you had better be good (and humble too - don't think a college degree means you're done learning or "now know it all", because education in this field is a life-long, ongoing affair) if you want to succeed. You also need some luck too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted January 6, 2008 Members Share Posted January 6, 2008 I don't have any insight into live stuff, but everyone always seems to recommend that Yamaha book about sound reinforcement. I don't remember the name at the moment. I don't know if this is really "insight" or what, but if you are really really into it, I say go for it. Usually good things happen if someone is really into it because, among other things, your energy is into it and working hard isn't a bad thing like working hard would be in a job you dislike. You don't necessarily need a degree in anything, but knowledge is rarely a bad thing, knowhattamean? I'd also talk to GearMike, who posts here in HC, since he's really cool and works in that field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted January 6, 2008 Members Share Posted January 6, 2008 Read Phil's very complete answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gearmike Posted January 8, 2008 Members Share Posted January 8, 2008 All right, here I am. You want to get started in the Live Sound biz? First thing I always tell kids when I hear that is that you really don't want to get into this field. It's brutal, it's long, it's hard work, it's dirty, the pay's not that great. But there are upsides... You get to travel. Learn to like living in a van, or if you're lucky a bus, or if you get to be really lucky, in an airport. I spent the first 9 months of my marriage on an airplane flying over 30,000 miles a month. And all I ever got to see was airports and arenas... You get to meet your heros. Granted it'll usually be after their career has deteriorated to the point that they're playing the State or County Fair circuit and are too washed up to realize that they aren't the rock stars they used to be. You get to listen to music. Be prepared to have your love for music tested. When you're paying your dues and starting out, you'll be subjected to some of the worst music this side of American Idol. Learn to love Persian pop music at 200bpm and 112dB. I'm sure there's other things I'm forgetting so here's what I told the last guy who asked me this question here... Oh, be ready to see things you're still too young to see...oh the things that happen on the road... All right, here I am. What do you want to know? I'd give them a call. Keep in mind that even though you have lots of experience at the family biz you're gonna land an entry level gig. They'll try to grind you down and make you pay your dues. I think you have a pretty unique skill set and that should make you pretty markettable. I'd call all the sound compants you can. Be willing to relocate. Be willing to take an entry level job and let them shape you into what they need. You do know that if you want to make any real money you should stay with the family biz. I'll tell what I wa told during my first interview. There's no glamor to this job. This is a moving company. What you do is go get the equipment and take it off the wall and put it in the case. Take the case and put it in the truck. Drive the truck to the show. Take the case out of the truck. Take the equipment out of the case. Set it all up. Take it all down. Put it back in the case. Put tbr case back in the Truck. Drive the truck back to the shop. Take the case out of the truck. Take the gear out of the case. Put it back on the wall. That's the gig. And if you're lucky you'll get $100 for the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Monkeywork Posted January 8, 2008 Members Share Posted January 8, 2008 I've done live sound, studio sound, film sound... all small stuff, festivals, theater, indie films. I had a great mentor, taught me legions. One of the great things he taught me though is to keep learning. Never think that you know it all, because you never will. Hopefully you keep getting better, keep doing good work, and keep getting better and better gigs. Training is more important than a degree IMHO, and knowing the lingo of Stagecraft goes a long way. You will eventually learn about signal path, phase issues, soundscapes, dynamics. Hopefully your audience won't leave at the end of the show with their ears ringing. (you should wear ear protection for every loud thing you do, mow lawn, circular saw, hammering in a bare room..) It is dirty work, cables are dirty, Gaff tape is a mess, gear is heavy and some musicians are just plain old douchebags. But then there's the time that you'll meet someone like Allen Holdsworth, have a beer with him and he'll say that the mix sounded nice. That's cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Weathered Posted January 8, 2008 Members Share Posted January 8, 2008 Live sound is a tough field to get in to. I haven't toured as a tech, but I've logged many, many shows in the past 7 years or so (I'll be 25 in April). Live sound paid for some of my college, and still pays my bills from time to time (I still do 75+ shows per year). Be prepared to work from the ground up. You most likely won't be able to walk into a company and start as a tech - you'll probably have to be labor first. The upside to this is that you'll understand exactly what goes into the system, and will be prepared to troubleshoot. This is the hard and dirty part of the job, and also the most time-consuming. The money, quite frankly, sucks. If I make $15/hour, that's a good paying gig. You will want to have a basic, working understanding of electricity (as much as you'd like to think it's all about the music, it's really all about the volts and amps - the music is just a side effect ). You'll also need to understand impedence, wattage, and simple physics, and the math that goes along with that. You will need to hone your interpersonal skills. More often than not, the tech for the band is hired because they're able to work with the band in a productive manner, not because they're a standout tech. Learn how to stroke the egos of the musicians you're working for, and offer helpful advice only if asked. Basically, live sound isn't like banking - you can't really just elect to go into it and then make a living right away. It takes time, it takes good luck, and it takes enough talent to get to the point that you can become a fader jockey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Branwyn Posted January 9, 2008 Author Members Share Posted January 9, 2008 First thing I always tell kids when I hear that is that you really don't want to get into this field. It's brutal, it's long, it's hard work, it's dirty, the pay's not that great. Oh, be ready to see things you're still too young to see...oh the things that happen on the road... Sounds just like working in tech theatre. Especially the equipment>case>truck>load in>load out>case>truck>drive bit, that gave me a nostalgic giggle. I learned to nap on a road case between shows and hoard gaff tape real quick. So all I can say here is WOW, thank you EVERYONE for all this fantastic and extremely helpful input, you all rock! I don't even know where to begin with further questions/responses b/c there's just so much awesome info here. THANK YOU! In terms of the lifestyle and the working from the ground-up deal, along with the interpersonal skills and performer-ego-stroking and understanding, I can say I'm very lucky in that my years working in different aspects of theatre has taught me loads about that kind of stuff. I found out the name of that Yamaha book and I'll be picking it up this week, and I just emailed a few local studios to see if they are accepting any interns. Even if its just nights and weekends to start out with on top of my temp day job, I'm anxious to get out of a cubicle and get dirty. Hopefully I'll hear back, and we'll see how that goes until the next semester at SAE gets closer. It'd be great to learn on the job and work up rather than burying myself in even more student loan debt and doing the same deal afterwards anyway. I have another kinda random question, not really important more curiosity than anything. I think it's pretty safe to say this is a pretty male dominated field. Have you met a great deal of female producers, engineers, or techs in your time? Do you think it may take any more for a woman to be taken seriously in this field? Just curious. Thanks again everyone, you're all amazing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted January 9, 2008 Members Share Posted January 9, 2008 For your last question, unfortunately, yes. But at Track Records, quite a few years ago, we had a female engineer. Valky (who doesn't really post around here much anymore) does live sound. So they are out there. Also, check this out: http://www.womensaudiomission.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Weathered Posted January 9, 2008 Members Share Posted January 9, 2008 I will add one more thing - school may help you make connections to sound companies, but it doesn't teach you to troubleshoot, and your mix will develop over time - the school will just give you a base with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Monkeywork Posted January 9, 2008 Members Share Posted January 9, 2008 I'll second what Weathered said. There are connections that you make in a school that will accelerate your job search. I know of two theater tech's that are female but don't know any female Sound Engineers. I've read about them in TapeOp, but never met such a critter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted January 9, 2008 Members Share Posted January 9, 2008 According to the link that I had above to the Women's Audio Mission in SF, there are less than 5% in the music production and recording arts. I've only come across one ever while recording. There's a lot of women who are out in the field using hand-held recordings (I work with several who do interviews and impromptu field recordings for The Tibet Connection radio show), but they tend not to be music-related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 I have another kinda random question, not really important more curiosity than anything. I think it's pretty safe to say this is a pretty male dominated field. Have you met a great deal of female producers, engineers, or techs in your time? Do you think it may take any more for a woman to be taken seriously in this field? Just curious. I have two very good friends who are outstanding engineers, and who happen to also be female - Yalky, who worked at NPR until recently when she decided to go back to school for her master's degree, and Lee Flier, who is another site admin / moderator here at HC. You might want to pop into the "For The Band" forum that she moderates and ask her for her POV on this question, but from my experience, while there are definitely fewer women than men in the field, the women I've met have been extremely competent and capable, and I see no reason why they shouldn't get all the props and respect they deserve, nor any reason why women can't do the job AT LEAST as well as we men can do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Weathered Posted January 9, 2008 Members Share Posted January 9, 2008 Agreed Phil. I've never met a female live sound tech, but I can imagine that there wouldn't be the "I've got a bigger Johnson (er....mix, I mean)" school of mixing, which can only be a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted January 9, 2008 Members Share Posted January 9, 2008 I have another kinda random question, not really important more curiosity than anything. I think it's pretty safe to say this is a pretty male dominated field. Have you met a great deal of female producers, engineers, or techs in your time? Do you think it may take any more for a woman to be taken seriously in this field? Just curious. I have two very good friends who are outstanding engineers, and who happen to also be female - Yalky, who worked at NPR until recently when she decided to go back to school for her master's degree, and Lee Flier, who is another site admin / moderator here at HC. You might want to pop into the "For The Band" forum that she moderates and ask her for her POV on this question, but from my experience, while there are definitely fewer women than men in the field, the women I've met have been extremely competent and capable, and I see no reason why they shouldn't get all the props and respect they deserve, nor any reason why women can't do the job AT LEAST as well as we men can do it. I forgot to mention Lee since I was more thinking about live sound. She's a very capable engineer who is very passionate about audio quality and tone (she also plays guitar well). I think there's some chauvinists who won't take a woman engineer seriously, and some musicians who I've heard say that they would find a woman engineer to "distracting" (although apparently it's okay for these idiots to bring along girlfriends and groupies). Most engineers I know would be quite respectful and encouraging, but there's always a few who make it so a woman has to put up with more crap and have to prove herself more. The mere fact that an organization such as Women's Audio Mission exists speaks for this sort of thing. I mean, there's no Men's Audio Mission or Caucasian Male Audio Mission, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Ken, have you ever talked to Lee about her perspective on the issue? It's pretty refreshing - she's actually always felt very accepted as a musician and engineer, even in those heavily male dominated fields. and some musicians who I've heard say that they would find a woman engineer to "distracting" (although apparently it's okay for these idiots to bring along girlfriends and groupies). Not on my sessions. I let everyone know from the first discussion that it should be limited to band members and essential personnel ONLY. Distraction? Guys, if you think a female engineer is distracting, try being an engineer (of either gender) who is trying to listen to details when seven people are having three different (loud) conversations simultaneously at the back of the CR. There's a lounge - please use it. Of course, if you're also producing, it's also your job to try to track down the guitarist so you can get on with the overdubs, but last time he was seen was wandering off somewhere with that girl that the drummer's girlfriend's sister (or was it cousin?) brought along with her when she "dropped by". Distraction? Yeah right... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MrKnobs Posted January 10, 2008 Moderators Share Posted January 10, 2008 Agreed Phil. I've never met a female live sound tech, but I can imagine that there wouldn't be the "I've got a bigger Johnson (er....mix, I mean)" school of mixing, which can only be a good thing. My wife was a live sound tech, and an extremely good one (before I married her). We both worked the pro country circuit and often were on the same tours together (which is where and how we hooked up). She was quite young when she was doing it and she had the strange idea that it would lead to a performing career in some way that she's never quite been able to explain to me. For a while after we were married we both continued to work full time in that profession. Doing tours or even out of town shows requires a lot of travel, and we were usually working different tours/acts so we didn't see each other a lot and when we did we mostly just wanted to sleep, heal, and eat right for a few days before we had to get back on a bus again. One day when we were both home we sat down and had a talk about where we were going with this. Although we had reached a point in our careers where we were pulling down a very nice combined income, we wondered if this was any kind of way to live long term. She was nervous about what might happen if we both hit a dry spell at the same time, even though we were pocketing lots of cash and stashing at least half of it away every month for lean times. In the end, I had to admit she was right. After working an entire 6 week tour with a bad case of pneumonia (laying in a bus seat coughing up blood between sound check and show time gets old after a week or so), after her returning to our empty house late one night only to interrupt a burglary in progress, after me being shot at in a high speed chase near Plantersville TX (case of mistaken identity), and both of us just being plain worn out from all the endless bus rides, bad food, disgusting rest stops etc. she convinced me there had to be a better way. We moved to Austin (our house didn't feel like home anyway, especially after the break-in) and I got a computer programming gig that didn't pay the big bucks like running concert sound but let me get home at 5:30 every night and actually had health insurance and sick leave. I still worked the occasional plum sound gig on the side but after one of many nights driving back to Austin from Houston at 3AM, arriving home just in time to take a shower, put on a suit and go to my day job (sans sleep) my wife confronted me and pointed out I was destroying my health needlessly so I quit. She, in turn, also quit live sound and enrolled in college. She first got her Pharmacy degree and license, and, while working, took courses slowly until she received her doctorate in Pharmacy. You can hardly get her to touch a soundboard now. Once, when my band played a really big show and the soundguy I'd hired no showed, I begged her to mix. She VERY reluctantly agreed, since she saw what a bind I was in. I set up the initial mix with everyone playing but me, then hopped up on the stage for two hours while she mixed. Afterwards a bunch of people were telling her how fantastic the sound was all night, and she just walked away saying, "It's HIS f*cking mix, I just held on to it. More exciting watching paint dry." If that sounds strange, I guess you'd have to know my wife. I suspect that she did a lot more than "hold on" to my mix, as she's extremely experienced and good at mixing, and has a very different ear for sound than I do. I have to say that in most ways our lives are better now. But some part of me still needs to "stay in the game." There's just some kind of adrenaline rush you get standing on a raised platform either outdoors or in a large arena, leaning over a half acre of sound and light boards, with 10,000+ people ready to lynch you if they hear a hint of feedback or anything less than the stellar sound of their favorite country superstar's million dollar voice. It's just f*cking electrifying! The best way I can describe it is "60 seconds of sheer terror followed by 45 minutes of abject boredom." That's because even at the pro level you rarely get a full soundcheck and most "surprises" happen within a few bars of the opening downbeat. Once you have the mix, once the incredibly complex maze of gear has decided that tonight it's going to work, all you have to do is not lose the mix and really almost anyone with an ear can do that. I came out of soundguy retirement for a while when a guy I knew from the pro country circuit left his famous employer and started his own band. I told him no initially but he said two things that changed my mind: (a) how much he was going to pay me for just arriving an hour before the show and turning knobs, and (b) that it was for a limited time only as he wanted me to train a guy he'd picked out. Well, I think he never intended for that guy to be his soundman, and it took me about 1.5 years working that new band before I finally turned over the reins to someone capable. I wouldn't have stayed so long except they were really, really good and I discovered I really, really missed the job. But the bottom line for me is, I love show business but, to mangle Milton's words, "Better to play in Hell than mix in Heaven." So I'd rather make $38 playing in a small club to 20 people than mix for 10,000 people. Ideally, I'd prefer to play for the 10,000 people and let someone else do the mixing, but I'm working on that. Terry D. P.S. I'll probably have some more to say about how to get into recording and live sound, since Branny asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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