Here's an interesting question...

[GZsound]

I'm getting ready for some studio upgrades. I have been researching and basically trying to decide between two ways to go.

 

I have a budget of around six thousand dollars.

 

I like using a mixer as the front end in the studio. I just like the routing and the tactile "feel" of being able to have a mixer.. so..

 

I am considering a new eight bus mixer like a Soundcraft Ghost or an Allen & Heath GL 2800.

 

OR.. buying six thousand dollars worth of decent mic preamps.

 

My feelings are that with one of those two mixers the mic preamps are more than adequate for my recording needs..but with seperate mic preamps I may have better quality but less control.

 

Any thoughts?

[UstadKhanAli]

Both those boards are supposed to have very nice mic preamps, so I'd think you'd be okay, assuming that you like the preamps yourself. And you said that you like using a board as a front end. You'd have that wonderful EQ that each board has on each channel. You'd have the routing. You'd have the tactile controls.

 

So I think you've answered your own question!!!

[GZsound]

Both those boards are supposed to have very nice mic preamps, so I'd think you'd be okay, assuming that you like the preamps yourself. And you said that you like using a board as a front end. You'd have that wonderful EQ that each board has on each channel. You'd have the routing. You'd have the tactile controls. So I think you've answered your own question!!!

 

 

Yeah.. I'm kinda leaning that direction. Besides...all those knobs really impress my clients..!

 

Thanks.

[The*Ataris]

How do you plan to do all the AD/DA, exactly?

 

In my opinion, it's a waste of time to integrate such a large scale analog piece without investing in the tools that will make it play nicely with a DAW, you know?

 

Maybe you need to be looking at one of the digital mixers on the market AND a decent pre?

[GZsound]

 

How do you plan to do all the AD/DA, exactly? In my opinion, it's a waste of time to integrate such a large scale analog piece without investing in the tools that will make it play nicely with a DAW, you know? Maybe you need to be looking at one of the digital mixers on the market AND a decent pre?

 

 

I have been using an eight bus board for years. (Mackie 24/8) I just want to upgrade to a better one...OR spend the money on some better mic preamps.

 

I also have plenty of AD/DA right now for my existing setup, although I am looking at upgrading at least eight channels of my converters..and that's part of the point. If I get a better mixer with better EQ, better mic preamps, etc. I can spend the money on converters that don't have built in mic preamps.

 

I have used a lot of different digital mixers and the only mixer I really like would cost a lot more than five or six grand.

[Red Ant]

Mackie Onyx 1640, with the FireWire card. Everything you want - good mic pres, and good AD/DA.

[Jimbroni]

I have an Allen & Heath Mix wiz 16. I use it as a front end as you are suggesting. I thought it was the most cost effective solution to getting 16 pre's, And I was right. The pre's in the A&H are very nice, however, they are very transparent don't expect them to warm up or color the signal at all.

 

I don't know about the mixer you are talking about, but the A&H I have can be modified so the direct out will be post fade. In other words, you can add some eq and inserts to the signal before coming out of the DO's. A nice feature, I have two channels setup this way. But the main feature, I liked was 16 nice pre's with 16 balanced direct outs.

 

From what I understand, spirit boards have a fantastic rep for having great pre's. probably even better than A&H, however every time I've touched one the faders and knobs seem to have a cheap feel to them, but if the is sound great who cares.

 

Another nice thing about a mixer for a front end, is you end up with a lot of added flexibility for monitoring while recording.

[GZsound]

 

I have an Allen & Heath Mix wiz 16. I use it as a front end as you are suggesting. I thought it was the most cost effective solution to getting 16 pre's, And I was right. The pre's in the A&H are very nice, however, they are very transparent don't expect them to warm up or color the signal at all. I don't know about the mixer you are talking about, but the A&H I have can be modified so the direct out will be post fade. In other words, you can add some eq and inserts to the signal before coming out of the DO's. A nice feature, I have two channels setup this way. But the main feature, I liked was 16 nice pre's with 16 balanced direct outs. From what I understand, spirit boards have a fantastic rep for having great pre's. probably even better than A&H, however every time I've touched one the faders and knobs seem to have a cheap feel to them, but if the is sound great who cares. Another nice thing about a mixer for a front end, is you end up with a lot of added flexibility for monitoring while recording.

 

 

I have thought about just getting a board with direct outputs, but I like having the routing ability of an eight bus board.

 

I need more than a 16 channel board because I also like having at least eight inputs into three spearate headphone mixes so I use up channels for returns. I try to avoid repatching whenever possible...pushing a button is much easier.

 

Thanks for all the advice..

[CN Fletcher]

The question is really whether you want 'quality' or 'quantity'... if you're looking for the visual "wow factor" then go for quantity... if you're looking for a sonic "wow factor" [which at the end of the day will actually get you a hell of a lot more bookings than a bunch of mediocre gear's visual effect] then go for fewer channels of very nice sounding pre-amps with a VERY small monitor system for doing cue mixes.

 

With better quality gear [once you familiarize yourself with the sonic textures you can create... usually takes about a month or two per box] you'll be better able to capture your client's emotional content for their music... and by that give your clients a "better" product [which they'll play for their friends... who will seek out your studio because you were able to deliver superior product... an upward spiral to getting "positive word on the street" about your facility].

 

I know it's an MTV world where people are somewhat impressed by quantity of knobs when looking at a facility on-line or via a facility tour... but at the end of the day it's the product on the street that either speaks well for your skills and facility or do not speak well for your skills and the quality of your facility.

 

Best of luck with your quest.

 

Peace.

[MrJoshua]

If I was going to spend around $6k on preamps, I'd go with an API 3124+ for $2600 to start. Then I'd grab a 10-space 500-series rack (a Purple for $800 or an API for $825). So we're up to $3400, leaving $2600. Two Great River MP-500NV modules for $775 each takes us to $4950, leaving $1050. That's basically enough for one more 500-series module of your choice - maybe a Chandler 500, or a Purple (you could almost get two of the Purple modules for that).

 

Then you still have four or five empty 500-series slots in your rack for future expansion, and you have seven or eight really good channels of preamps. Or you could go with a six-slot Lunchbox for about $400 less and just fill it all the way up, giving you eight channels of great preamps.

 

But that's just me, and I'm an admitted fan of outboard preamps.

[alcohol]

I had a A&H GL2400. I never used the buses. I made some decent recordings, but they never sounded "professional."

 

I thought my Great River and Chandler Germanium Pres were big improvements over the A&H.

 

When I sold the A&H and moved to the AMEK Angela (Blue) I thought the AMEK pres and EQs sounded better and my mixes sounded significantly better than on the A&H.

 

If I didn't luck on getting the AMEK I would have probably gone for a stem summing solution, like a Dangerous 2 bus, and some good mic pres. Getting the AMEK might even be a mistake. I'm not sure.

[UstadKhanAli]

 

The question is really whether you want 'quality' or 'quantity'... if you're looking for the visual "wow factor" then go for quantity...

 

 

I agree with this post, especially for the "visual factor" point.

 

My take on this is whether he'd work better with the mixer as a front end since that's already his preferred method of working. The board's gonna have decent preamps, and given the budget, would there be a huge increase in sound quality? IOW, would $6000 worth of mic preamps sound noticeably better than a Soundcraft Ghost? I don't know the answer to this, and that's probably what Mark is going round and round with, but I'm thinking that if it's not an appreciable difference, he should go with how he prefers to work.

 

What say you?

[UstadKhanAli]

BTW, since I'm working out of my second bedroom and my space is not going to impress anyone, I will always choose sound quality over anything else, even within my limited budget. And more to the point, I'm obsessed with getting stuff to sound as good as I possibly can anyway.

[GZsound]

 

. I know it's an MTV world where people are somewhat impressed by quantity of knobs when looking at a facility on-line or via a facility tour... but at the end of the day it's the product on the street that either speaks well for your skills and facility or do not speak well for your skills and the quality of your facility. Best of luck with your quest. Peace.

 

 

 

Thanks Fletcher, I appreciate the advice.

 

I am to understand then that the preamps and/or electronics in the two boards I mentioned (Soundcraft Ghost and Allen & Heath GL2800) are not adequate for "professional" audio..right? Mediocre I believe you said?

 

Great, now I need to figure out which preamps I can afford. I love a challenge.

[GZsound]

If I was going to spend around $6k on preamps, I'd go with an API 3124+ for $2600 to start. Then I'd grab a 10-space 500-series rack (a Purple for $800 or an API for $825). So we're up to $3400, leaving $2600. Two Great River MP-500NV modules for $775 each takes us to $4950, leaving $1050. That's basically enough for one more 500-series module of your choice - maybe a Chandler 500, or a Purple (you could almost get two of the Purple modules for that). Then you still have four or five empty 500-series slots in your rack for future expansion, and you have seven or eight really good channels of preamps. Or you could go with a six-slot Lunchbox for about $400 less and just fill it all the way up, giving you eight channels of great preamps. But that's just me, and I'm an admitted fan of outboard preamps.

 

Thanks.. I'm getting suggestions from several friends already.. one of whom recently bought a True Systems 8 channel pre and swears by it.. That's only $2,600 for eight channels. Maybe good for drums.

 

However, I think I need different flavors if I am going to go with stand alone pre's. I'll look into your suggestions.

[GZsound]

 

I had a A&H GL2400. I never used the buses. I made some decent recordings, but they never sounded "professional." I thought my Great River and Chandler Germanium Pres were big improvements over the A&H. When I sold the A&H and moved to the AMEK Angela (Blue) I thought the AMEK pres and EQs sounded better and my mixes sounded significantly better than on the A&H. If I didn't luck on getting the AMEK I would have probably gone for a stem summing solution, like a Dangerous 2 bus, and some good mic pres. Getting the AMEK might even be a mistake. I'm not sure.

 

 

Thanks.. that's helpful too.. I admit I haven't heard either of the mixers yet so it all may be a moot point, but I appreciate your experience with the A & H board.

[UstadKhanAli]

That's the whole thing is to determine how good those mixing board mic preamps that you mentioned are.

[fuzzball]

Personaly I also find that the pre's in the A&H are very nice. they are very transparent. I use other pres on occasion for color.

[GZsound]

Well...this opens up the question about what to do with a bunch of stand alone mic preamps..

 

Since most of the botique mic pres are not digital, what is the preferred connection for them to get into the computer?

 

Direct to a high end interface with line inputs? That limits having any EQ, outboard effects, etc. unless I add even more stand alone units...correct?

 

I would think that perhaps getting a mixer, like the Ghost, would also give me the capability to add quality botique mic preamps via the line in..and by using direct outs on the board would bypass the electronics and make the pre quality of the board moot while retaining routing capability when necessary..

 

That would give me the best of both worlds..I think.

 

I also have to keep in mind that I am not in the "world class" studio business and need to tailor my equipment to my client base which is mostly regional release product, demo CD's and "track" singers, although I am getting international airplay with a current project.

 

Man.. the quandry is always what's "good enough"..and when does "return on investment" raise it's ugly head?

[Todzilla]

GZ,

 

Get a full rack of Seventh Circle Audio preamps. Even if you get them pre-built, you're under budget.

 

Then, how about a DAW controller with tons of knowbs rather than a full board?

[IsildursBane]

I wouldn't rely on the eq's in a low-end live board to do any decent studio work. Generally, the bandwidths are too wide and the gain controls too aggressive.

 

I like working on a mixer, too, but the low quality of a cheap board would frustrate me more than the less-than-ideal workflow of mixing ITB.

 

-Dan.

[albiedamned]

The high end solution to getting them into the computer is to use high end standalone A-D converters, like the Apogee stuff. The converters output into ADAT or S/PDIF, so you still need an interface with ADAT or S/PDIF inputs.

[Jimbroni]

 

Well...this opens up the question about what to do with a bunch of stand alone mic preamps.. Since most of the botique mic pres are not digital, what is the preferred connection for them to get into the computer? Direct to a high end interface with line inputs? That limits having any EQ, outboard effects, etc. unless I add even more stand alone units...correct? I would think that perhaps getting a mixer, like the Ghost, would also give me the capability to add quality botique mic preamps via the line in..and by using direct outs on the board would bypass the electronics and make the pre quality of the board moot while retaining routing capability when necessary.. That would give me the best of both worlds..I think. I also have to keep in mind that I am not in the "world class" studio business and need to tailor my equipment to my client base which is mostly regional release product, demo CD's and "track" singers, although I am getting international airplay with a current project. Man.. the quandry is always what's "good enough"..and when does "return on investment" raise it's ugly head?

 

 

I think you're on the right track. If you have the mixer, you get all your routing schemes, and you can always get a couple boutique pre's for the special tracks.

[UstadKhanAli]

I suppose that would work and give you a lot of options.

 

 

But still, I can't help but think: is there some sort of eight-channel mixer that is high-quality but still within your budget?

 

Like an eight-channel version of this Manley 16x2 mixer? Or a way of getting this sort of quality for a little cheaper? Or is it worth it to bite the bullet and get something like this????

 

 

Now, I've never used this personally, but Manley doesn't seem to make junk, knowhattamean?

[Phil O'Keefe]

If I was going to spend around $6k on preamps, I'd go with an API 3124+ for $2600 to start.

 

A very good starting point indeed IMHO. I love mine. :phil: